> But none of them have really wrinkly legs

thats true, but a neo should not be that wrinkly, they should be a little bit loose all over, they should not be dripping excess skin.

> But neos and shar pei I believe sell for more, the wrinklier they are.
>

then the people who are paying it are simply dim. shar peis are a breed that have had considerable health issues in the past and to encourage such practise is negligent to the dogs welfare.

then the people who are paying it are simply dim. shar peis are a breed that have had considerable health issues in the past and to encourage such practise is negligent to the dogs welfare.

Too true, too true.

Yes its true they do have very big litters but i would prefer a litter of 3 to 24 OMG i couldnt cope and i think unfortunately it would be hard to fine good homes for them all even having a waiting list i would have to pts some of them. Also knowing she was going to have sooo many i may have opted for a termination of half of them, say one uterine horn if that can be done???

> Yes its true they do have very big litters

How strange that this Steve chap you have been talking to only has tiny litters.  Is it possible that he does not register them all?  And if not, why not and where do they all go? 

i've heard of tiny neo litters and ofhuge ones. they just seem a funny breed that way

His line may even have fertility problems, or there may be something wrong with the fetus's that the mum is re-absorbing them.  Not to put a spanner in the works, but maybe worth finding out from the KC what the average litter size is.  If this guy is consistently having below average litter sizes then it is something to be concerned about.

Excuse me!!! who do you think you are, questioning other breeders you know nothing about!!! Steve is the chairman of the neapolitan mastiff club, he breeds to keep and show, has many many wins under his belt including crufts, bred all the dogs for the harry potter films. imports alot of his dogs and loves them all dearly like any of us. He is not a BYB so do not accuse him of being so. Dont stir in puddles when you havent a clue.

Louise

He imports many dogs from italy/hungary and the states with all different lines from many different countries. You do realise that these huge litters seem to be from the pet breeders?

Astarte you are right, and as dog breeders owners i thought other people would realise this, many of his dogs are imports so its not his line.

Louise

louise calm down- who said he was a BYB? someone made the reasonable point that querying his lines fertility might be in order. its not a totally out of line suggestion.

Excuse me!!! who do you think you are, questioning other breeders you know nothing about!!! Steve is the chairman of the neapolitan mastiff club, he breeds to keep and show, has many many wins under his belt including crufts, bred all the dogs for the harry potter films. imports alot of his dogs and loves them all dearly like any of us. He is not a BYB so do not accuse him of being so. Dont stir in puddles when you havent a clue.

Excuse me! Did you read my post correctly?  All I suggested was to find out what the average litter size was?  Nobody questioned if he loves his dogs and I do not recall anyone calling him a BYB.  I made a suggestion that is actually good practice.  If small litters are normal then fair enough.

> and as dog breeders owners i thought other people would realise this

about the size of neo litters? why would they if they don't fancy mastiffs? i've not the foggiest about average spaniel or collie litters

my response was to isabel saying that he may not register all his pups which is really calling him a byb not to you GCG

Louise

Astarte- to litter sizes varying quite damatically from dog to dog. Whats unusual about one dog having a singleton and other 14, doesnt mean there is a problem

no it doesn't but its not out of line to consider checking it out.

i'm sure isabel was not suggesting he's a byb. and to be honest your rather assuming isabel knows nothing about them- just because they are nowhere near her chosen breed does not mean she doesn't know about them. shes entitled to post and ask questions louise. just chill, if you have faith in this breeder great, but allow others to make suggestions as it may be helpful to you :)

Well maybe not but its still a little o.o.o implying he has large litters registers some and fobs the rest off. Which i highly doubt as he is very particular about puppy buyers and he imports more than breeds. I maybe suggesting that she knows nothing about them, but she seems to take a dislike to any type of large ''dangerous'' breed. Since she does know nothing about said breeder and his dogs its not polite to suggest hes a byb.

Louise

> Astarte- to litter sizes varying quite damatically from dog to dog. Whats unusual about one dog having a singleton and other 14, doesnt mean there is a problem

I don't think people were querying the fact that litter sizes can & do vary, just that this particular breeder is reputed (from what you've said) to constanly produce small litters. From what I can find about thier average litter size is 6-12.

He doesnt breed often and i think in general he has smaller litters compared to some, his comparison being those that have 18 plus, it may be lower than 18 which is a good thing i think because these dogs are not for everyone. He said his last girl only produced a small litter, i cant really generalise his entire breeding years as it was just a phone conversation.

Louise

> but she seems to take a dislike to any type of large ''dangerous'' breed.

i've never taken that from isabels comments and she knows i have a similar breed

Well maybe not dislike as these breeds are not everyones dog, but to comment negatively throughout this entire post, and some other ones regarding large breeds aka presa. Each to their own and im not bothered, i love the breed and they are my exact cup of tea. Im happy with steve the breeder i have chosen to buy from in the future , i know the standard what i think is a good healthy dog not too excessive and i cant wait to be the proud owner of one.

Louise

I don't know very much about the breed but the one you seem to like LouiseDDB looks really sad and extremely uncomfortable :(
Hopefully you and others with the same taste will one day start to think of how the dog feels and how healthy it is first and foremost.

I'm looking at this objectively, and certainly have nothing against giant breeds (mind you I don't think Isabel has either ;-) ). Reading the breed standard it says "Loose fitting skin over body and head, not to be excessive"

When describing the head the standard again asks for "Head has loose skin forming wrinkles and folds but without excess"

It seems clear to me that the KC are trying to encourage people to put the welfare of the breed first, but like in GSDs etc there will always be people who get carried away. The ones you linked to Louise seem excessively wrinkly to me, the standard doesn't mention anything about loose skin on legs or those baggy ankles.

> but she seems to take a dislike to any type of large ''dangerous'' breed.

I don't think I would like dangerous breeds.  Is this a dangerous breed? 
I think it is perfectly reasonable to consider just why it is that he registers very small litters when others seem to have very large ones.  Whether you think that is implying he is a BYB (clearly not a very good description if he has considerable show success) or whether he has bitches that appear to have consistantly low fertility or whether he does not like to register all his puppies for good reason or bad is anyones guess I would say.  Whatever, it is a percularity of passing interest to anyone who is interested in breeding.

> i think in general he has smaller litters compared to some, his comparison being those that have 18 plus, it may be lower than 18 which is a good thing i think because these dogs are not for everyone. He said his last girl only produced a small litter, i cant really generalise his entire breeding years as it was just a phone conversation.
>

Right, so your comment "they only have small litters with 2 or 3 or he has even had singletons" was just a stab at what might be the case there.  It would appear that you don't know him very much better than anyone else.

Picking now arent we, some of his bitches have had 2 or 3 and he has once had a singleton pup. I dont know him very well, i have spoken to him on the phone and i watch him and his dogs on animal planet and his website. (which you may want to switch over to now and see his dogs are not miserable and uncomfortable, apart from the pup thats on now thats down in the pasterns but thats a large breed problem)

> Is this a dangerous breed?

no they are not and i am sure you noticed the ""'s.

i think that from comments from you on this thread and apparently comments on the presa thread louise has assumed you dislike large breeds. i am sure you have noticed that she was corrected in this. no need to pick arguments :)

however, you are right about querying the litter size/registration. certainly its perfectly reasonable to ask.

as a breed they do seem to either have very big litters or quite small ones. it appears to be a bit of a quirk with them but then i am far from an expert and this is taken from very limited reading on them.

Oops just finished. At the end of the day i want to get a healthy happy dog, aslong as its healthy i dont care. I would hope for a good example of the breed as i want to get into showing and promoting good healthy examples. Id choose a dog without the excessive skin, ill try again into posting a pic that some may agree isnt to excessive to cause health problems neo with natural ears of corse but i dont think this girl is too much. Does anyone agree???

Louise

> I like this type here and the majority of type shown throughout the entire website heavy wrinkles but not too much, some may disagree but i think thats down to personal preference, maybe molosser fans would agree on type.

(Totally unrelated to posts on the other thread, so please don't think I'm having a 'knock Louise day'.)

Do you honestly think that the wrinkle shown on that dog and others on the site (including some females which should surely be more moderate) is 'not too much'? It seems very exaggerated to me, and I can't possibly see how that is of any use to the dog or could fail to cause discomfort. It definitely doesn't reflect the historical Neo pictures, either in general substance of the dog or in wrinkling.

I also had a look at another site which was talking about cropping styles and treating cherry eye as a matter of fact that should be expected and dealt with routinely. Like many breeders, I'd have liked more balance in the reporting, but looking at sites like that it's amazing that Jemima didn't make a whole series of problems in pedigree dogs to be honest. :-(

M.

I see what you mean with the legs, what about the pic above?

Louise

> no need to pick arguments :-)

Would it be juvenile to say Louise started it? :-D

lol slightly but as i have succumbed before fair enough :D

but be the grown up and finish it ;)

Neo

Excessive yay or nay ?

Louise

not as bad as previous ones, but i still dont like the dewlap, but thats a personal preference.

slightly still on the legs and somewhat around the neck. face looks a bit better though

I do think that would cause any problems though? the dewlap will always be droopy even my dogues have a dewlap, i dont just want a black ddb it should have wrinkles. I think this example is fine.

Louise

personal taste- of course they will have a droopy dewlap but to my mind its disproportionately droopy.

that being said i remember thinking one of the dogs that played Fang in one of the HP's was a lovley dog.

They did look so cuddly in HP, but I have a fear of the "extoplasmic" drool that come from the bigger breeds.

pmsl! you become accustomed to the drool...

"Rather like a habit one can always break and yet            (that would be carrying a towel)
I've grown accustomed to the trace of something in the air (dribble)
Accustomed to your face " (and its droopy runny bits that stick to you when not watched carefully)

pmsl! you become accustomed to the drool...

I have a boyfriend, trust me you don't get used to the drool :-p Bad enough when I wake up in my own drool.
Is there puking smiley lol? 

So we are all agreed then?  Nothing wrong with neo's except when they have "leg warmers"? Leg warmers are never a good look ;-)

Not agreed here, I'm afraid, don't like the excessive wrinkle on the legs but think the heads far more exaggerated and likely to cause far more serious problems.

The last link you posted is certainly better, Louise.

M.