Hi does anyone know the breed average hip score? I dont think its very common to score them in the UK as of yet, but its a breed i would like to own in the future. Do they need any other tests, eyes,heart, livershunt....... etc i think elbows maybe necessary. I also dont think the standard is very specific, i know they are open to ones interpretation of it, but i see a huge variety in 'type'. I like the italian type, something not too heavy, so it can see, but again retain the wrinkle and gait that they are known for.

Louise

Hardly any done with an average of 25 looking at the BVA website!!  Can't believe that a breed this size has only had 30 odd tested!

hi louise ,id say hips and elbows tested,but it varies amongst breeders who do or not.also id say go for a line that you like and see what the same father is producing to see if he throws that type,like bordeauxs i think there can be a varied range in type in each litter,and what you see as a pup isnt always what they end like as an adult.if the parents are well-wrinkled etc,id go for the more wrinkled puppy rather than the plainer ones.our rumble was the wrinkliest in his litter having wrinkles on the head and over the muzzle and hes kept them into adulthood,same with our new pup, she had more wrinkle that her sisters.her dad is well wrinkled so we are hoping she is taking after him,as we feel a lot (ddbs)are getting too plain in head and muzzle and from what weve seen at shows neos fall into the same boat-some having wrinkle and some being almost dane like in expression.go for a well- wrinkled line and pick a wrinkly pup!good luck!

The standard demands skin not to be excessive.

it does but id say personally we would want one with wrinkle than one without or plain in head..its finding the balance.. the most successful in the showring would be borderline on excessive wrinkle from what weve seen..the plainer dogs dont seem to be in the cards.as in ddbs some wrinkle is needed,id just prefer the wrinkled pup over the plain one having seen litters in these breeds develop but its guess work and preference really.

> the most successful in the showring would be borderline on excessive wrinkle from what weve seen..

I think, indeed hope, that you will be seeing rather different in the future as the KCs plans move forward.

Well i dont think Neos cant have excessive wrinkles or else they wouldnt be neos?? He is characterized by loose skin, over his entire body, abundant, hanging wrinkles and folds on the head and a voluminous dewlap.

I like this type here and the majority of type shown throughout the entire website heavy wrinkles but not too much, some may disagree but i think thats down to personal preference, maybe molosser fans would agree on type.

I don't know where you got that description but it is not part of the KC standard.
I don't think it is acceptable to have these things down to personal preference rather than consideration of welfare.

Why is it a welfare issue, they can run, see and breath. There brains fit in thier skulls. I see no problem with the type of dog i have linked to. The dog in the picture (Kc website) is not of the type i prefer, i like the italian type.

On the Kc website a better example here

It really does not take much to see that those folds will be warm, moist and a walking fungus factory.  There is no reason for them.  This is precisely the sort of exaggeration that the KC has been concerned about, long before Jamima wanted to sell a documentary I would add, and have been working towards by changing standards, introducing veterinary assessments at shows and steering judges.  I wonder where you have been for the last few months Louise!  It seems they have some way to go to change the publics desires.  Infact I wonder whether they can and the puppy farmer will just step in to supply them :-(

Well since you have spaniels Isabel i dont suppose you will understand. My dogs have wrinkles, so do bulldogs, shar pei etc etc. Its all part of having a high maintenance dog, wrinkles are cleaned daily if needed. If you have ever met a neapolitan you would know that with the majority of them they havent any welfare issues they are just happy wrinkly dogs. I KNOW the kc are wanting to change it but i dont agree. Think they should stick to the dogs that are actually dying because of short noses, small skulls and the problems of puppy farming. There is no reason for them, there is no reason for a dalmations spots either but nevermind, they seem to have managed in italy for quite a while looking as they do.

Have you met the majority of them?  I would think it all too easy for a dog like this to fall into the hands of someone who is more interested in status that canine hygiene.

>Think they should stick to the dogs that are actually dying because of short noses, small skulls and the problems of puppy farming.

Why should any of their projects exclude another?  Welfare is welfare whether ever it is needed.

>there is no reason for a dalmations spots either but nevermind, they seem to have managed in italy for quite a while looking as they do.

The dalmatian was developed in England - they've never been reputed to come from Italy at all! The name suggests a link with the dalmatian coastline of Yugoslavia, but actually they were unknown there until about the 1930s.

hi my reference was to neos coming from italy and that isabel said there was no need for its wrinkles, and i said well there is no need for a dalmations spots either but they are still what makes the breed lovely to the eye of the beholder.

Well i think the true types with the ''excessive'' wrinkle are not going to end up in the wrong hands as people who are breeding this type are very careful who they sell their puppies too, so its more the bad examples as majority of things go that will end up in the wrong hands. Plus the type i prefer is mostly imported from its native home and there are only a handful of breeders in the uk breeding the italian type.

Here are some 'historic' neo pics (scroll down), the dogs don't have all the excesive wrinkles, or the 'pooling' of saggy skin around the ankles (LOL, like Nora Batty).

As for health issues, this is a breed I was looking into getting (plumbed for the Mastiff in the end), I was put off by the apparent high occurence of cherry eye and pano as well as thier temperment (a bit too much dog for me!), they also are suceptable to skin infections* due to a lowered immune system. They also have a short life span of only 6-8 years (even shorter than my breed).

* taken from here (the UK Mastini Club)

> My dogs have wrinkles, so do bulldogs, shar pei etc etc. Its all part of having a high maintenance dog,

"I KNOW the kc are wanting to change it but i dont agree. Think they should stick to the dogs that are actually dying because of short noses,"

Make up your mind Louise!

The Neos I've met have the most appaling bursas ( size of grapefruits) on their elbow joints and almost closed eyes - just because you like how these extreme examples look doesn't make it right.

> Well i think the true types with the ''excessive'' wrinkle are not going to end up in the wrong hands as people who are breeding this type are very careful who they sell their puppies too

Frankly I doubt it.  They command high prices after all.

Well the breeder i have spoken too does, who are you to say they dont? They command high prices because he has imported all his stock from italy and they are quality dogs

Burzas happen to my breed when allowed to sleep on hard surfaces or kennels, but can be avoided

As I said louise  just because you like these extreme examples  - doesn't make it right.

I was refering to bulldogs with wrinkles as anyone who owns them or wants to knows that they need to be cleaned i know they have short noses and i am not gloryfying it im  just used them in reference for wrinkles

Doesnt mean i cant own one the way i like does it?

I KNOW the kc are wanting to change it but i dont agree.

The Kennel Club are trying to make breeds more healthy.  Do you agree with offering large breed dogs that are known to be prone to bad hips at stud without hip scoring too?

I am just saying, i like the look of the breed without it going too excessive, and i dont think the standard needs altering because i think it covers the breed fine and as said already judges need help sometimes in interpreting the breeds standard. After all the dogs with excess folds are not winning its the less wrinkled more healthier ones that still retain type that are doing well in the show ring.

I take it that's a Yes then?

No westcoast its not. I think i have covered what i meant in the statement above.

I went to a seminar nearly two years ago run by our breed club in conjunction with the Neo club. We had Baz Bosch. We looked at Neos in the morning and DDB in the afternoon. Fascinating day and fabulous dogs to go over. I have to say that Baz expressed concern about excess loose skin in the Neos, particularly in young ones, on the grounds that it can affect their health, comfort and wellbeing as they grow. That was particularly the case in the bitches - if you think about it, the undercarriage in DDBx can get pretty saggy after a litter and you wouldn't want loose skin hanging down round their ankles!  I love Neos but wouldn't go out of my way to pick an over-wrinkled one.

I agree im not condoning the overly wrinkled ones where it affects health and these are not the ones i like, i have seen examples that have been too much and its clear that its too much. But there are plenty other breeds including these that have health issues regarding to looks but i dont think the standard needs changing just the interpretation if it and showing good examples without health problems against those with and comparing.

Hi Louise...have you been following Steve Cox & his Neo's on the current series of pet passport?  Very interesting, it shows some of the dogs he has brought over, & followed him on a trip to Italy to buy a dog & also did a dog show. I have to say (will probably get shot for this) but i prefer them with the cropped ears.      

Hi YES i have! i do like them with cropped ears yes but when i see them with stitches in im not sure, ive spoke to steve about his dogs and i will go and meet them in essex one day when im in the position to afford one. He has lovely dogs and they all look so happy, healthy and absolutely stunning. That poor peggy that had to have an op she has a temperament very much like my girl and that again is why i love the breed so much. Ive enquired about a rescue one in Lincolnshire so we will see what happens, heee

> I have to say (will probably get shot for this) but i prefer them with the cropped ears. 

I thought ear cropping was banned in Europe? With some breeds, cropping the ear just makes it stand upright, but with the Neo, part of the ear flap must have to be removed too - I think that's awful :(
There is no reason to crop the ears as the dogs are not fighting (they can be shown with natural eas). Cropping the ears to help stop infections is not a good enough argument as many dogs have pendulous ears with no probs (hygene/cleaning should keep things clean & infection free).

Uncropped Neo       
Cropped Neo

ETA, I've just found a chart of ear cropping styles :(

Ear cropping is banned here, i was referring to the Italian ones featured on the pet passport program. 

Ear cropping is also banned in many European countries too now.

i spent some time working in the glasgow pdsa, and saw a large number of these dogs, far more than i would expect. now without causing offense to anyone, a lot of the clients we had were young men with macho dogs, and neo's fell into this it would seem. im not saying they are macho, thats just my observations. almost everyone we saw had eye problems, cherry eye being by far the most common, sore dry eyes as well, and skin problems, horrible fungal diseases between the folds. the smell that came off them was awful, poor dogs stunk. :( i for one would like to see them with far less skin wrinkles, cant be comfortable. and the ones i saw would not be very capable of running.

as far as i have seen its steve coxs type that seem to win in the ring,they have a lot of wrinkle but seem pefectly happy and healthy even in the height of summer at shows.also many large breeds have bursars,our rumble had one and after the vet said they couldnt do anything about it, we set about researching how to get rid of it ,which we did by getting to lay on a duvet instead of the hard floors indoors and by glucosamine and chondroitin every day,and people are amazed it went from a tennis ball shape to hardly noticeable now.as for wrinkles being health problems our ddb has wrinkle on his face and muzzle and they dont get infected or cause any bacterial problems at all.and actually most byb neo litters ive seen seem to be too plain as opposed to over wrinkled,mainly id imagine due to plain dogs being sold on as pets and then bred from and the more wrinkled being the ones kept back for show etc.ive seen some near me and they are more like danes iin head type,no wrinkle and very plain.as yet i havent heard the kc want the neo standard ammended.some people would rather the bull/mastiff breeds didnt exist i think,theyre not thier cup of tea,i say each to thier own.

I can understand them appealing to breed enthusiasts and those breeding to improve/maintain the breed standard but I can also imagine how difficult it must be to find good pet homes for the pups that aren't show quality.  How many pet homes could manage the maintenance involved in keeping these dogs in a happy and healthy condition?

Or maybe it's the backyard breeders who don't show who are producing pups with problems. :(

> i havent heard the kc want the neo standard ammended.

The KC standard was last updated in 2007 and it is certainly different, and considerably more moderate, than the AKC one quoted by Louise.

again id say the dogs that win are more like the pic on the kc standard,wrinkled and some borderline excessive,but i havent seen any suffering from the heat in summer or smelly, or unable to move properly.id say the plainer ones are more prevelant in byb litters and cherry eye is common but its one of the things that go with the breed until they can maybe breed it out.i know people in clumbers with cherry eye problems,hip problems and bursars on elbows so its not confined to the mastiff breeds.

> but i havent seen any suffering from the heat in summer or smelly

Those being brought to shows are likely to have their hygiene attended to well and not entered if having any skin problems I would have thought.

> i know people in clumbers with cherry eye problems,hip problems and bursars on elbows so its not confined to the mastiff breeds.

Of course not.  Any breed with problems needs to considering whether the physical ideals are contributing to matters but this is one surely one of the most exaggerated.

> Ear cropping is banned here, i was referring to the Italian ones featured on the pet passport program.

Ear cropping is banned throughout Europe, I believe (including Italy).

Here's a little info on cropping. I din't realise that the upright look of a cropped ear entailed removing about half of the ear, or that it was such an involved process. With the Neo it can be nearly the entire ear that's removed (on the link I put up re. cropping styles).

> some people would rather the bull/mastiff breeds didnt exist i think,theyre not thier cup of tea,i say each to thier own.

I think there is definatley room for Mastiff breeds :) But, I think some breed standards could be more detailed leaving less room for interpretaion. The Neo & the Mastiff standard go into quite a lot of detail regarding size ratio of facial features, but when it comes to the loose skin on the Neo it is just left as 'not in excess', if there was an example/limit there would be no room for interpretaion to go to the extreme.

I know what you mean about the plain looking neos alot i see on the net from BYB have hardly any wrinkle at all, but steve alot of the time keeps the ENTIRE litter from his dogs because he loves them so much and they only have small litters with 2 or 3 or he has even had singletons, he has the space and has over 20 (he likes to make friends with his prospective puppy owners, thats why i spent ages on the phone to him and when im in the position to get one ill go meet him and his dogs) but for the meantime ill have to admire them from afar as they are on animal planet everyday at the moment. Unlike many BYB who seem to have 18!! in thier litters. I can see as any big 'hard' dog gets attracted to the wrong type, but yet these are the type from the byb with the cherry eye, and they feed them crap and dont wipe their wrinkles i dont even think they deserve the name neos as they are so far from it.

I don't mean to offend anyone who has these dogs, but what a smell!!! Now I know how any and every dog will smell, but the wrinkly breeds do pong.  Even shar peis pong.  But then I wash my dogs weekly so am used to a shampooey smell ;-)  Just my preference, but I do not think it is fair on dogs having skin folds.  Fair enough having a bit of wrinkle on the brow, but there is no need for it all over the body or on the legs.  Watching that Dogs in the Womb programme, I felt so sorry for the Neo's.

> but the wrinkly breeds do pong

no they don't if kept properly.

> i know people in clumbers with cherry eye problems,hip problems and bursars on elbows so its not confined to the mastiff breeds

Ah .......so that makes it alright then :-(

> maybe molosser fans would agree on type.

i like a moderate wrinkle but i think perhaps you and isabel disagree on what excessive or a lot means.

many neos do have far to excessive wronkle and probably could suffer health issues because of it. perhaps something a little more between the pics mastiff lover posted- its weird, some seems very wrinkly neos and some look more like cane corsos.

as to the elbows its something that in some cases is hard to avoid- Tio has a kingsize duvet in his crate, another duvet in his tub, 2 blankets on the floor in the living room and a blanket in the computer room for when we are through there- he still insists on crashing on the floor and getting scabby elbows!

> but the wrinkly breeds do pong

no they don't if kept properly.

All dogs smell if not kept properly - but the folds in the skin mean these dogs need more specialized care (evidently the wrinklies I have met are not getting that).

> but steve alot of the time keeps the ENTIRE litter from his dogs because he loves them so much and they only have small litters with 2 or 3 or he has even had singletons

I remember reading about the biggest litter on record being from a Neo?..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4189845.stm

While looking for that I found another huge litter in Australia..

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24781448-3102,00.html

It just seems strange to me that a breed known for small litters would produce the biggest?

> Those being brought to shows are likely to have their hygiene attended to well and not entered if having any skin problems I would have thought.
>

very true.

i don't like an excesive wrinkle as it looks to me a bit like they are melting :) and i hate cropping, it looks foul! i would say though (don't know how familiar you are with the wrinklier breeds isabel, forgive me if i am saying things you already know) that its not hard to look after a reasonable amount of wrinkle, in fact it rather just happens as you give them attention, you clean off dirt or loose hair etc, any gunk and so on simply during the days cuddles. its mentioned, as it should be, as a vital part of breed care but in actuality its not a bother at all.

that being said the unsavoury types that might acquire such a breed (and thats the real downside to a molosser) probably wouldn't take such loving care- but then would they for any breed?

perhaps (though not knowing them i can't say :)), but i've had bullmastiffs, a mastiff and lots of experience of frenchies, none of whom have ever smelled (well, except after applying eau de fox poop) and thats only with bathing every few months. grooming and a wee wipe are all thats really needed.

perhaps (though not knowing them i can't say ), but i've had bullmastiffs, a mastiff and lots of experience of frenchies, none of whom have ever smelled (well, except after applying eau de fox poop) and thats only with bathing every few months. grooming and a wee wipe are all thats really needed.

But none of them have really wrinkly legs, like with the Neo's on that Dogs in the Womb programme (they looked melted like you described) - that is what I would call excessive.  I do like mastiffs, bully's and frenchies honest, scrunched up faces are kinda cute (on dogs, not babies ick) :-)  But neos and shar pei I believe sell for more, the wrinklier they are.

At ring craft many years back, the neo pup decided to poop in the hall.  Whatever he ate didn't agree with him that's for sure!  Coudn't believe the size of the poo.  Little dog=little poo to pick up :-)  That's my logic and I'm sticking to it lol!