Hi all
I am new to this forum, but have been lurking on the sidelines for several months as I feel the advice on here is second to non in many respects, after reading so many posts.
I have a bit of a query, and I am hoping I have done the right thing.
Sadly my old boy passed away recently,my wife and I were determined that we would not have another dog after him, he was such a fantastic boy and we miss him so much. However, the house is just so empty without him and so we decided we would look into getting a puppy, not to replace him in any way I must add.
It is many years since we looked into buying a puppy and some things seem to have changed. We were advised to speak to breeders in our chosen breed, in order to make the best choices and be aware what health screening was available etc. and to understand what the results properly.
It seems that in the breed we love, some breeders hip score and others dont. This is because of several factors, and also because the breed is not thought to be one that is susceptable to the problem.
My post here is not to enter into any discussion as to whether this is right or wrong.
My query is related though.
One of the first breeders I contacted has a website, I was very impressed to read that she takes time and expense to do all relevent health testing, and she states on the website that she feels hip and elbow scoring is very important. She also claims to have all of her litters temperament tested prior to homing. I was very impressed with all of this.
However, it turns out that she actually has not hip scored the bitch that is having the puppies at all, and in fact only hip scored one dog several years ago. She said the bitch having the pups came into season and so she didnt have her done.
After talking to other breeders I was warned several times about other issues surrounding the attitude of this person. This was not just one person telling me this, but seemed to be most people I spoke to, in fact not one person I spoke to had anything positive to say about her at all, even that she had been refused membership to the breed club.
With all of this in mind I politely told her that I would not be persuing my interest in her puppies, to which she replied that if I cannot name the people who have said these things about her then they arent worth their salt.
I am not prepared to get into an argument with her about any of this, but felt it not my place to tittle tattle to her the names of the people who had warned me. I see it that they were only trying to help me make the correct decision and I wanted the time looking into having a new puppy to be a special, happy time.
Now I feel really bad, thinking that this person may be genuine, and perhaps I have been too hasty in judging her.
We have our names down for a puppy now, and feel very comfortable with the breeder of him.
Do you think I have been wrong in the way I have gone about looking for a puppy?
I thought perhaps a broader spectrum of minds would help.
Sorry for the length of this post, and also the vagueness regarding breed/breeders, I do not want to make the situation worse.

Thanks Pete

> We have our names down for a puppy now, and feel very comfortable with the breeder of him.
> Do you think I have been wrong in the way I have gone about looking for a puppy?
>

Buying a quality puppy is a minefield but most intelligent people have the ability to sort the 'wheat from the chaff'.
It's part research, part intuition and often part learning the hard way.
Your intuition may have served you well in this situation; as I cannot imagine great success could be forged on suspicion, on either part.
Put this behind you and resolve to stick to your guns.
What you must remember, however, is dog breeding can be a very competetive/ financially driven affair and many 'tell tales'  on others to make themselves look good.

Good luck.

Hi Pete and welcome to the forum :)

It's perhaps unfortunate the way things have worked out but I would stress that it's better that you did some homework and if that throws something up that causes alarm bells to ring then you're right to walk away :)

In some breeds, probably all breeds LOL, there are always gossips and rumours going around about other breeders - some will be worthy of the title 'truths', others half truths and some the result of jealousy.  To anyone without inside knowledge it's well nigh impossible to tell the difference but newcomers or potential puppy buyers are better IMO to work on the notion that "where there's smoke there's fire" and do more research.

As well as the KC site when searching for litters, the individual breed clubs will have lists too and they should only have litters advertised with them which have been bred compliant to their code of ethics :)  IOW, if a breeder hasn't carried out the recommended health tests within that particular breed then the club wont promote their available/planned pups.

Please don't feel bad about anything you've done as you are quite rightly seeking out the most responsible breeder you can find to ensure your new family addition is as healthy, typical and temperamentally sound as you get and also want to be sure that the breeder you decide on will give ongoing excellent after sales advice and assurances.

Good luck with your new arrival,
regards, Teri

IMHO you did exactly the correct thing.

My BC bitch(who I was given @ 14 months old by her breeder) has had all her DNA tests done & just needed her Hips scoring & the clinical eye test. I planned to have her hips scored in October & she did have a very short silent season before this. I could have bred from her on this silent season as she is sound & comes from low scoring lines, however being a GSD breeder in the past I could never breed from a bitch unscored & thius applies to any breed I own. So obviously I didn't, just as well, her score is 29:27=56, way too high to be bred from & so she will be spayed eventually & my breeding plans are now put off until I get her full brother scored & then I plan to find a suitable bitch to use him on-which will probably mean buying a puppy BTW

I would never buy a Kennel Club(any kennel club BTW) registered dog from someone who does not do at least the basic health screening & as this person has not done this, then you are quite justified in walking away & going to a better breeder(IMHO)irtrespective of what other issues there maybe.

Good on you for using your head & not letting your heart rule you

Thank you all for your help. I think the main things that put us off were
a, the fact that she made such a statement on the very front page of her website about hip scoring being so important to her dogs as they work (later found out that in fact her dogs do not work, and that she hadnt hip scored)
b, she was refused membership into the breed club by a panel, and I was told this by a member of that panel.
c, she was quite rude when we looked elsewhere for a puppy.
My problem is that I am usually a very 'practical' kind of guy, and on this occassion I have let intuition win. But the great thing that will still come out of this is our beautiful new puppy, we are very much looking frward to having him home with us when he is old enough.

Pete

All the things you mention a through c are enough reason on their own to turn away :)

> My problem is that I am usually a very 'practical' kind of guy, and on this occassion I have let intuition win

That's you just allowed your 'feminine side' through Pete - always a winner LOL.  Do it more often, women rule the world :-p

I think you did well. Your breeder is your first port of call when you have questions or concerns about your dog. Having a good rapport with them will help a lot in the coming weeks and years. People can and do lie - and the one's most likely to lie to you are the dodgy breeders. I'm glad you found a puppy from someone you feel good about. :) We'll see you back here when the little terror is keeping you up nights, being sick from eating garbage and chomping your hands and furniture ;-) (the joys of puppies :-p) or just to brag about how perfect and wonderful he is! :-D

i generally find that the real good breeders with who you should be contacting to buy a healthy puppy seldom have websites to promote there wares there pups generally speak for them selves my advice would be to use the internet to contact your local/national breed club and seek there advice much more reliable than a dodgy website

Although I agree with you about the breed clubs wire mad, I do know a lot of good breeders that have websites too. :-)

> Although I agree with you about the breed clubs wire mad, I do know a lot of good breeders that have websites too. :-)

Me too, I know some very good breeders that have websites. (although some are a bit rubbish at keeping them updated! too busy with their dogs :))

Hi, I think you HAVE to get a pup from someone you can talk to and raise issues with...if you feel you couldn't do this, with this particular breeder, then you have to walk away. Hopefully you will find someone you can relate to and trust.

If you go to the Kennel Club site they list all the Health testing that should be done for any particular breed.  http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/

I do have people contacting me for Newfie pups, I don't breed Newfies now, but I TRY to give fair and sound advice. If they find a Breeder with pups or want to go on a list I always say I can't tell you whether to buy a pup from them or not...but I will tell you if I would buy a pup from them! To be fair, most of the Newfie Breeders I know are ok!

Hopefully you will have a new addition fairly soon! All the best and well done for even researching and deciding! Not many take the trouble and the rewards pay themselves back time after time when you end up with a healthy, happy puppy!

i generally find that the real good breeders with who you should be contacting to buy a healthy puppy seldom have websites to promote there wares there pups generally speak for them selves
really??? Well I beg to differ.....some of us have quality hounds, quality puppies AND quality websites.I think that statement is sweeping and irrelevant.

Most good breeders I know use their websites more in fun.  Listing their lovely dogs, their show results and most importantly how they have progressed. I love reading peoples sites from the beginning till now.  The progressing means the world to people and their proud to show it.

Most people I know rarely have puppies on their site. I know I personally have never had a litter ever on my site.

I am very lax at updating my website... I dont have many photos on it.. and this year is the 1st year I have ever had my litter listed.. I use my site as an information site

My Champdogs page is the one I use most.. updating with show results .. but even then.. I think it must be nearly a year since I updated the photographs of my boys.. and the main page has been the same for around 3 years..

Like Blue.. I love reading other peoples sites.. some of them are a superb for  information.. and looking at some of their old photos going back years.. can be such a great time waster...

There's a good article here about the differences in breeders websites..

http://www.kaylenbergsiberians.com/BreedersOnline.htm

That is a good article and rings very true.  How many sites have we seen "showcasing" puppies, rather than the adults.  That it particularly true of the overseas "puppy mill" sites I've seen for my breed.  There are one or two of those.

The section on titles would need to be adapted for UK purposes.  Here, very few of our dogs reach their title, of course, and you would need to include JW and ShCM as evidence of activity in the show ring - no doubt there are other titles in the other canine disciplines in the UK too.

> The section on titles would need to be adapted for UK purposes

Plus the health testing is breed specific so you'd need to know what tests the breed you are looking at would require but overall it's a good guide.I've not seen a similer article written by anyone in the UK yet.

Although I haven't updated my website for a while, I hope it shows how proud I am of my dogs' and their individual acheivements?
When I advertised my litter, where better than my own website? 
I know lots of 'top breeders' use their sites as the ONLY place to advertise, other than by word of mouth.

Whatever breed you are interested in, take a look at a few sites, follow that link above as a guide to what you are looking for in a breeder, and happy searching :)

I have found some great websites whilst looking for a puppy. Some with such wonderful photos of the dogs, and it is easy to see how proud the owners/breeders are of them and how much they are loved.
I have of course come accross some not so good ones too. The breeder I originally found has a website, but the very brief introduction is very misleading saying that she hip scores as this is very important to any working dog, her bitch is not hip scored and she does not work them either, and they are not in the working group so cannot mean this either.
On the whole though I have found breeders websites very informative and interesting reading.
The article/link mentioned above has some very good points.
Thank you for the kind words about the puppy, I am sure I will be here again asking for all sorts of advice when he arrives home :)
Pete

Just been back and re-read your original post.  I think one of the main things which has come out of this discussion is that you are happy with the breeder of your puppy. 

If you feel he/she has plenty of time to discuss various issues with you, her dogs, their breeding etc as well as providing after care I don't think you can go too far wrong.  Are they happy for you to visit puppies - provided they are old enough - whenever you wish etc

I do think its a little harsh to judge some breeders just by their websites - some may not have the time to update reguarly or even have the capability to do so - especially if they rely on someone else to do it for them.

How long before you bring your young man home?

> The breeder I originally found has a website, but the very brief introduction is very misleading saying that she hip scores as this is very important to any working dog

Only too common I'm afraid -  in fact on this site I have found  breeders with links to their own websites where they list the diseases their breeds suffer from..some in very good, accurate detail...but no sign that they've actually tested their own stock for them.
Perhaps they feel that as long as people are aware - they can beware :-)

Unethical breeders very often have one to three males and a "harem" of females,

Oh dear....thats me in trouble then!!!!!!

Me too Sam, oh nooooo!! 

I must admit that I do not advertise on my website as such.  Only ever advertised one expected litter and she didn't have anything :) 

> Unethical breeders very often have one to three males and a "harem" of females,
>
> Oh dear....thats me in trouble then!!!!!!

And me! 

Unethical breeders very often have one to three males and a "harem" of females

I am always puzzled by statements like that, is this the "switch off your brain and follow
the do-gooder lobby" button?

I can even top that ... ;-) ... I am keeping one set of sister&brother along with a set
of the sister's children (also sister&brother) plus with two other males, one related,
one not. So two "defenseless" bitches in with 4 randy males ... ooooooooh, baaaaa,
boooooo - why doesn't that worry me? Because the bitches are spayed ...!!! TeeHee.

So even IF a breeder has a couple of males and and a couple of females that doesn't
mean senseless, irresponsible reproduction.

> So even IF a breeder has a couple of males and and a couple of females that doesn't
> mean senseless, irresponsible reproduction.

Quite so :-) but the statement you quote does not contradict that does it. :-). 

Quite so  but the statement you quote does not contradict that does it.

Correct. But what I find annoying is that people who make/follow such statements
have a certain mindset in which they operate. Taking the example I made with my
two sets of bro&sis, which HAS raised eyebrows and questions in the past as I do
not see any obligation to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry about the de-sexing of the
bitches. A typical conversation would go like this (and I admit I love teasing people
with my answers because I want THEM to go ahead and ask the ONE relevant que-
stion they want - only to be "disappointed" to hear the one answer they didn't).

"So, who is that then"?
"Oh, this is bro&sis-set I and those two are sis set I's children, also a bro&sis pair,
they are very affectionate with each other and I just love not having to separate
them but letting them live together for live."

"Are you not worried about incest pairings, e.g. bro/sis, mother/son, uncle/niece
when you are not separating them by gender?"
"No, why should I? I know exactly when the girls were last in season and what to
expect in future and when".

"You sound so sure but I don't believe this is a good way to prevent unwanted
matings, I'd rather call this irresponsible."
"Well, that's for me to know and for you to find out."
-end of conversation or eMail correspondence -

At this stage the suspicious party should have asked WHY was I so sure the dogs
are safe, there will be no uncontrolled matings or whatever. But they have already
decided at that point that I am an irresponsible, probably incest-enhancing, profit-
eering mass producer. All they "needed" to ask was: "Are they all entire and sexually
able to reproduce?". Which those people never do. They ask questions, which I ans-
wer truthfully (i.e. I do have records of when the bitches were in heat all their lives,
I do know the girls are not going to get pregnant) but without giving away any details.

Which leads me to two conclusions:
1. They have been brainwashed by a certain mentality and are unable to make up their own mind.
2. They are judging people by their own standards and are for some reason thinking they are walking
on higher moral grounds.

I can understand why you would be frustrated by people who are not able to understand the statement but that is not the fault of the person making the statement.  Fact is puppy farmers do tend to have males and females on tap and it is perfectly reasonable for people to consider that point.  Why tease them, why not just explain to them the basic differences between your breeding and less reputable breeders that make it not a matter of convenience?  It would also be another opportunity to educate them regarding the many other issues that determine the differences for example reasons why litters might be bred, the value of properly evaluated and tested stock etc.

BigEars, don't you think it's logical for people to think that, if you breed/have bred dogs then they're likely to be entire?

Why tease them, why not just explain to them the basic differences between your breeding and less reputable breeders that make it not a matter of convenience?  It would also be another opportunity to educate them regarding the many other issues that determine the differences for example reasons why litters might be bred, the value of properly evaluated and tested stock etc.

While this is a good point: It's easy to educate the educated. I am a big fan of throwing in a bit of information
and for people to work things out for themselves. Same as kids coming "Mommy, I am thirsty" and Mommy ob-
liging and running and serving her kids a drink. Why not let the kids go all the way to say "Mommy, I am thirsty,
can I please have a drink?". Call me old fashioned but if someone was interested in any of my dogs I need them
to be active, neither me nor my dogs are there for their entertainment. If they can't properly communicate with
me - and asking questions maybe to shed a prejudice would be a good start - then how on earth are they going
to communicate with my dogs? This stance suggests they have certain expectations, that I as the breeder/seller
should serve (think buyer satisfaction) all their expectations without them having to make any effort at all.

BigEars, don't you think it's logical for people to think that, if you breed/have bred dogs then they're likely to be entire?

No. Not necessarily. Same way as I don't think because somebody has a teenage boy dressed in hoddies that they're
up to something "bad" or already have an ASBO in their pocket. This is exactly the point I am trying to make:
People assume. People are prejudiced. People think they are entitled to an opinion ... but based on what?
On their assumptions or prejudice? On stuff they heard "elsewhere"? Certainly - so it seems - not by making their own
inquiries or asking their own questions. This is why I don't give a darn about hear-say/third-party gossip myself.

Why is it that people hesitate to ASK, to be PROACTIVE, to FIND OUT stuff?
Is it because they are used to being everything offered on a silver platter or is it because they don't want to know
because their "friends" and their information may prove wrong?

Beats me!

>>BigEars, don't you think it's logical for people to think that, if you breed/have bred dogs then they're likely to be entire?
>No. Not necessarily.

You miss my point. How can people breed from animals which aren't entire?

> maybe to shed a prejudice would be a good start

Fair enough but the statement we were talking about showed no prejudice.  You missunderstood it.  It did not say that all breeders that have both males and females are puppy farmers but that unethical breeders often do.  I don't mean to be rude but that maybe puts you on shaking ground when using that to launch a complaint regarding peoples poor communication skills ;-)

sam it was meant as a general statment i know that there are some top genuine sites out there but for every good one there is a dozen bad ones and that is fact a breed club website is exactly what it is there to promote the breed it is after only one thing your membership and offers so much more my main breed has to of the best websites on the planet run by nothing more than money merchants living off gullable newbys who there are loads out there searching for answers in the old days we contacted our local clubs who  put is in touch with a genuine breeder now we search the internet until we can find what we want remember it is not against the law to publish what ever you want on a website and what newby is going to be in a position to question it until it is to late!!! 

Although I have a male dog he is not ever been the sire of any of my puppies and it's unlikely that he will. He would have to be the most suitable sire for my litter and I don't see a situation where that will be the case. He may, however, be suitable for someone elses bitch.If he pays his cards right :-)

How can people breed from animals which aren't entire

Of course they can't. But they may have in the past ... :-)

Fair enough but the statement we were talking about showed no prejudice.  You missunderstood it.  It did not say that all breeders that have both males and females are puppy farmers but that unethical breeders often do.  I don't mean to be rude but that maybe puts you on shaking ground when using that to launch a complaint regarding peoples poor communication skills

I am not launching anything. I am just puzzled by the way statements like the quoted one seem to gain unquestioned validity.
Because the (don't quite know the right word for it) reverse valid statement could read "Ethical breeders never have a couple
of males and a group of females". Which some do. And I know them to be reputable and of good standing.

> I am just puzzled by the way statements like the quoted one seem to gain unquestioned validity.

Are you saying it is not valid?  I believe it is.  Puppy farmers do often have both male and female.

>Because the (don't quite know the right word for it) reverse valid statement could read "Ethical breeders never have a couple of males and a group of females".

There is no reverse statement, certainly no one has made it, unless you imagine it.

This thread remind me of the recent one on byb's owning both parents.Yes there may be legitimate reasons for it but mostly breeders will have used an outside sire.The point is that buyers should be aware and ask questions,if the answers are satisfactory then there isn't a problem but they need to know the questions to ask in the first place ;)

>>How can people breed from animals which aren't entire
>Of course they can't. But they may have in the past ...

Exactly my situation. :-) So when people ask if I have any trouble having males and females I simply say "No, the girls are spayed." It's a good opportunity to do a bit of public education, explaining how difficult keeping entire males and females can be, and how it's not usually a sensible thing to do, unless you have kennel facilities, etc. Easy - no need for hedging or playing 20 Questions! :-)

> if the answers are satisfactory then there isn't a problem but they need to know the questions to ask in the first place

Exactly :-)  If the other indications of reputable breeding are present you can discount that one issue.

Hi there,
Did you meet the breeder in question ? - Did you speak to them in person ?
Did you know the people who have said anything derogatory about a different breeder ? - do you trust them ? Or are they random anybodies who could be stirring for the sake of it?  

The Only way you can truly have a feel for a person & there dogs is to go see them !! 
Many people aren't good on the phone or email, but if you have a list of questions, ideas, thoughts, queries you can ask face to face and see first hand a reaction !  On email some people choose to ignore, or fight their corner... however you cannot see their reaction and could be an automated response you want to hear!

Many many breeders will not like other breeders ... and as well as passing on information, can choose to pass on miss truths. 
Why not contact people who have a puppy from this breeder ... see what they think! Or their vet, or clubs they are members of. 
I wouldn't worry about upsetting people if you have been straight and fair... yet if you have said oh people have said this that and the other then left it hanging in the balance it is understandable they may be upset! 

As i understand it this breeder does all health tests available and recommended by the clubs and kennel club, and chooses to do extra.  I also understand that out of 5 dogs there is only the one untested bitch, and the unsuitable males tested were castrated !!

Hiya
I'm new to this forum But felt I had to respond to this thread :-)
I'm a bit confused about the reasons for rejecting a puppy from this breeder, other than 'tittle-tattle' from others ?
You say this breeder said she hip & elbow scores her dogs even though this is NOT a requirement for the breed in question.
Then complain that she had not had the bitch hip & elbow scored, even when she had explained that the bitch had come into season early ?
You don't say if the sire has been scored or not ?
You also say something about her 'working' her dogs, but they are not a member of the working group' & that she doesn't 'work' them anyway ??
I'm totally confused by this comment ???
I am inclined to agree with Spottydog's questions.
Have you actually been to visit this 'breeder' & her dogs?
You would have a much better idea of how the dogs are, which will also give you a very good idea of what sort of 'breeder' this person really is :-)
I have always visited the breeder of any prospective puppy I have bought, before that puppy was actually born. It's the ONLY way to get a picture of how the puppy will be raised before going to it's new home (ie Yours)
& gives you a chance to clarify any misgivings you may have.
I have also asked if they have bred before, would it be possible to speak to any of those puppy owners?
If you have not done these things?
I feel you may have been 'swayed' by some people who may have something against this breeder?
Believe me it does happen !!!!  Very sad, but, unfortunately also very true :-(

i have to disagree as even if the bitch did come in to season early surely she could of got all the health tests done and then bred from her on her next season. i cant see that there is a rush to breed her and in light of the recent programs if hipscoring etc is a test that the breed shoudl have then i agree she should of had this done before breeding. but i do agree that you shouldnt listen to what other people say and judge for yourself

Sorry if you miss understood my post :-(
The point I was making was that the poster stated  'hip & elbow scoring was NOT even a breed requirement' in this instance ?
& that therefore the breeder saying that the bitch had come into season early was a valid reason for her ( the bitch) not having been scored at the time ?
Were there other reasons to go ahead with the mating ?  There can be many reasons for a particular mating :-) Age of the bitch, availability if a particular stud dog, AI :-)
Did the original poster ask ?
This seems to be the hub of the problem :-)
When we are looking to buy in a new puppy we do need to speak to the breeder face to face :-)
Visit the dam at home before the puppies are born :-)
You'll get a very good idea of temperament that way, all our dogs of whatever breed are totally different at home ;-)
If requests to visit the breeder to visit are evasive THEN alarm bells should ring loud & clear :-)

On looking at this post it becomes obvious that Spotty Dog is in fact the original breeder I approached. I did not mentiion a breed at all and she seems to know an aweful lot about my conversations with her, which were not mentioned on here in my origninal post.
The website of the breeder that I was advised to stay clear of clearly states that her dogs are hip scored and that she feels this is VERY important. Sadly not so important to her after all as her breeding bitch has not been done, and this is her only breeding bitch.
Interestingly Sara Pipin, a new poster, seems to know exactly which breed too.
It is true that many people in the UK do not test for Hips in this breed, but the point is that if you say you do then you should, otherwise you are misleading people.
I was advised by many people to avoid this breeder before finding my puppy, and by even more since, mainly by very friendly, approachable people. I am happy with the decision I have made and am looking forward to picking my puppy up on Saturday :)

Pete

Also just one more point, Spotty Dogs suggested I contact the breed club to ask about the breeder, I did and was told that the breeder was refused membership by a panel of committee members, who all agreed she should not become a member for various very serious reasons. I think this to be reliable judgement.

Pete

I'm sorry !!!!!!
I have only just joined this forum & was only voicing my opinion on the post you had placed & commenting on the replies to that post.
I have no idea what breed we are discussing !!! I have only gone off information provided by you :-)
Are you now saying that 'spottydog' is in fact this breeder???
I have no idea if this is true or not, but do agree with her comments !!!
You have not answered any of the questions from previous posts:
Did you speak to the breeder directly? Did you visit ??  Did you meet the dam & any other kennel mates?
Have you spoken to owners of any previous puppies, if the breeder has bred before?
You have however found it necessary to now throw accusations at me :-(
I don't wonder if you got short replies from the breeder you contacted, if this is the way you reply to people :-(

Although I do wish you luck with your new arrival :-)
I hope you have many happy years together :-)

I said ask the clubs they are members of actually. - don't go twisting my words. 
If the breeder has done soooooo many Serious things then WHY are they members of other clubs ????????????
You also seem VERY quick to presume you know a lot when clearly you don't.
Carry on making comments which are Complete lies and you will land yourself in trouble. 
You have already stated you are unsure what is fact. 
Did the breeder at any time say this bitch was hip scored ??? You must have asked from your comments.  Have they hidden something from you or misled you into saying she is scored ? 
No exactly!!!
I do know what i am talking about and have seen the lies you have been spreading to people about someone you don't even know!!!
I notice you don't mention the other reasons for her not being scored at the time you asked ??!!

How do you know the breeder doesn't work them ?
Do you have some sort of proof she has no awards in this area ????