If we go back to Lea's first post when she said :-

Ok after a bad experiance with a customer and the way she bought a pup (not seeing parents, ear mites etc) I would love to be able to come up with a rule of what to look for in a pup. [

Most of us who spout on here know what we are looking for/what we produce when we breed - and therefore our answers are slanted by our experience.

But what I think Lea was meaning, was for the "I want one and I want it NOW" general public, who now, thanks to JH and THAT programme, think that all pedigree/show breeders are second in line to Satan.

If we are trying to set up rules for these puppy buyers, we should be going right back to basics and yes, advise the most basic of checks. produce

With respect Perry....do you think that they would get within a mile of my babies until they did

Ouch!!!  I'll consider my wrists well and truly slapped :)

But seriously toolz, I'm sure you would agree that a potential buyer that is interested in the pups health and wants to check out the pup, is going to make a better owner for that pup?  After all, there are not many people we can take at face value these days, sad but true, so I really am surprised that you would expcet a potential owner just to take your word for it, I'd be quite suspicious.  I'm not suggesting for one minute that you are not trustworthy and that you don't have a wonderful reputation, but I would think it obvious that people would want to check you out as well as the pup and also you them.

> If we are trying to set up rules for these puppy buyers, we should be going right back to basics and yes, advise the most basic of checks. produce

I think most reasonable things have been covered in this thread.

Some breeders don't always offer their pups the 'General public' on the open market and find it hard to imagine vetting cold-callers, let alone letting them into our homes to inspect our pups without first the majority of questions being answered and worries allayed.
Maybe that is the answer..dont buy from a breeder you haven't formed a trusting - working relationship with. Feel lucky to be allowed to have one of the breeder's precious babies.

But I suppose there are far too many breeders and too many pups being bred for that to be a realistic hope :-(

> Ouch!!!  I'll consider my wrists well and truly slapped

Maybe they are too scared of me LOL :-)

I seldom make the wrong decision in placing my dogs but if I do....I will always put it right.

I dont know what bubble I've been in all my dog- producing life...but this forum is just a revelation to me.
Either I've been deluding myself all these years and am letting my pups go to the wrong people ( the ones who just trust that they are getting the best )  OR what I do is the best for me and my pups? 
I've never like selling puppies and would rather have just one in the litter... a great one of course..... but if anyne wants one of mine they just have to put up with it.
It's not as if there isn't thousands of other breeders out there.

Maybe they are too scared of me LOL

You are just too hard and too scary!!

To be honest you sound very similar to the breeder where I got my golden from, (my current one not the first unhealthy one).  Fortunatley I was recommended to her otherwise I don't think I would have stood a chance, and she doesn't advertise when she has a litter either, she seems to have waiting lists :)

    

>If we go back to Lea's first post when she said :-Ok after a bad experiance with a customer and the way she bought a pup (not seeing parents, ear mites etc) I would love to be able to come up with a rule of what to look for in a pup.Most of us who spout on here know what we are looking for/what we produce when we breed - and therefore our answers are slanted by our experience.

>But what I think Lea was meaning, was for the "I want one and I want it NOW" general public, who now, thanks to JH and THAT programme, think that all pedigree/show breeders are second in line to Satan.

>If we are trying to set up rules for these puppy buyers, we should be going right back to basics and yes, advise the most basic of checks. produce

Thanks M. and I think it was Charlie  that is EXACTLY what I mean/
xxx

> Yes - check bite, for cleft palate, any funny bumps\ shapes of leg, hernias umbilical and inguinl, testicles x2 if a boy, eyes, ears for waxiness & mites....

I may be in the minority also but anyone even asking to do it would be shown the door in a split second.   If they couldn't trust me then I wouldn't be selling them a puppy.

I can see exactly where everyone is coming from and totally agree but I think the work the buyer needs to do is long before even seeing a litter of pups but investigating the breeder , references etc etc once this has been done hopefully the trust would have been established.

I would also be asking a breeder how successful they have been in the show/working world and why they were breeding this litter.  That is in my first top 2 things when people ask what they should ask or look for in a breeder.  Why the litter has been born tells a lot I think.

> We're all quite different, aren't we!

We sure are but thats a good thing IMO, as it would be pretty boring world if we all thought, looked and did the same thing and had the same dog, variety being the spice of life LOL

When i buy a puppy i dont care how good a reputation is. The pup gets a full go over, bite, ears, eyes, limbs, teeth, conformation and the bite of mum and see how she moves. Not everyone is honest in this world sadly, even some successful breeders will fob you off. When people come to visit my puppies im happy to see them check a pup over as they show that they have put the effort in to see what they should look for in a puppy, the same as asking the questions about the breed etc. After all your parting with money and its a living being that you will fall in love with the second it starts its journey on the way home. You wouldnt buy a house without a valuation or a viewing. I made a mistake with a pup with a kink in its tail and i will never make it again. Im quite cynical tbh but i try to look after number one, if i offend a breeder by checking over their pups, im sure i will reassure them that i am the best home for a pup after i have done my years of research and have experience in the breed and i am going to be a good loving knowledgable home that keeps in touch.

Louise

also dont be offended if the breeder asks you lots of question as a good breeder will be looking for the right person for there pup.
And that it will be a forever home not a passing fancy.

> Just a point.
> As this is a thread about GENERAL rules then a GENERAL rule is to check for these problems

yeah Lea, I got lost trying to look for the numbered rules in this thread.  Posters managed it until approx 8 then it went haywire!

> You are just too hard and too scary!!

She's a pussy cat really Perry ;-)

Going back to the inspection debate... When I got the call that my breeder had a boy puppy she had selected for me, after years of patiently waiting, begging, pleading and badgering (stalking) her, after she had vetted me so much I swear she knows my life history and then some.. I wouldn't have dreamt of inspecting the puppy for those health problems.. I knew he wouldn't have them, in fact there was a pup a year before she wouldn't let me have as she suspected he may have had a retained testicle. I'm in no doubt that she'd have been massively offended if I'd started checking for the health problems listed. But I wouldn't have because by the time my puppy was born, we were great friends that had a lot of mutual trust and respect.

The only thing I looked at was what he looked like stacked - and I took Tooolz with me for her expert 3rd party opinion! (and for a ride in her merc haha ;-) )

Oh my bloomin 'ell....it's a vision...an apperition....it's ma wee Linz ;-)

You've put him down for a moment have you?

Have you looked at the Champdogs photo show? You'll see some familiar old faces on my photostream...real old memory lane stuff.

> She's a pussy cat really

A tiger? Or a lion?

:-D No offence intended.

> A tiger? Or a lion?

Puuuurrrrrrrrrrrr :-)

:-D

I checked my tricolour girl to make sure she had tan in all the correct places, the breeder didn't seem to mind that. But I suppose she did know I wanted her to show and (assuming all worked out properly) as a foundation bitch. And yes, I've seen comments about dirty coats etc in lots of write ups! I was most impressed by the puppy buyers who knew what questions to ask about the breed when I sold my puppies, such as heart testing.

Ask about the pluses, cons, about the breed and lines.  You can read a book, and it will tell you one thing, but when you talk to people who spend their lives with the breed, they will tell you another.  I remember reading that Miniature Pinschers were calm..........rollseyes.   If I had believed that, I would have thought my dogs took speed or something!

Also, in regards to pluses and minuses in the line, ask the breeder what the faults are in the dog you are looking at (too much angulation, or to short in muzzle, etc).  I always want to know what the faults are, because so many breeders become kennel blind, and only see the faults in OTHER dogs, not their own.  But remember, its the breeders interpretation as well of the breed standard (like my aunt says "Dobes have a wedged head, but its dependant on the size of pie piece you want")

Yes - check bite, for cleft palate, any funny bumps\ shapes of leg, hernias umbilical and inguinl, testicles x2 if a boy, eyes, ears for waxiness & mites....



Heart, temperature etc............

I agree that all of these things and more should be checked as a matter of fact before a pup is sold, but not by the puppy buyer, or even just the breeder, but by the breeders vet, I have my pups, (as I know do many others) taken for a 10 point health check, it doesn't matter what I think or know about my pups, I want it in writing from a vet that the pups are completely healthy, a puppy buyer unless very experienced can't be expected to know what to feel or look for, (would most even know the difference between ear wax or mites, or a rough and tumble of food accidently caught in the ear?) it automatically puts a puppy buyer at ease that the pups will be vet checked before leaving for their new homes, an expert has give the all clear.

I wouldn't buy a pup from any breeder without that vet check, no matter how experienced, things can be missed and it also protects the breeder that the pup was in excellent health before leaving.

I will never forget the story of a woman who bought a pup with a broken leg, they never saw the pup walk, just went to collect after seeing photo's and it was only when they took it home they noticed (puppy farmer of course) they had no comeback, he blamed them, (may have even been) but there was no proof either way.

So IMO a vet check before leaving would be essential.