Ok after a bad experiance with a customer and the way she bought a pup (not seeing parents, ear mites etc) I would love to be able to come up with a rule of what to look for in a pup.
So copy and paste rules and add your own,
It should end up as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 etc etc etc etc
If you dont agree wth someone please say WHY :) :~) :)
So :-

RULES

1- Always see puppies with mum

Lea :)

2 Always handle the pup yourself and if you need to (or can find someone!), take someone else with you who is experienced at the time of picking up...

A lot of you will take this as a no-brainer, but quite often a pup is chosen for you by the breeder. In my case we agreed to take one pup, but in the end the breeder wanted to keep him and we took his litter brother. I don't regret it for a minute, but by not handling him I didn't notice his (admittedly minor) umbilical hernia till we got home. That leaves us with something that may or may not be a problem for the future that we might have dealt with differently had I taken time to properly go over him.

3.Make sure that the parents have had the relevent health checks done for the breed (make sure you see the paperwork!)

4. Take your brain with you.... so many leave theirs at home.

5. If you go to see a puppy which is poorly kept, you are NOT 'rescuing' it by buying anyway - you are paving the way for more puppies to be born and raised in those conditions.

6. If a puppy cannot be registered with the Kennel Club, it is rarely due to the breeder's kindness of heart in wanting the best pet homes for their puppies. It could be because the bitch's papers are endorsed because she has a health problem that is likely to be passed on to her puppies. Alternatively, the bitch could be too young or too old to have puppies, or she may be bred every season to make money. Either way, best to walk away and find another puppy.

>If a puppy cannot be registered with the Kennel Club, it is rarely due to the breeder's kindness of heart in wanting the best pet homes for their puppies.

It could even be that either dog or bitch is stolen.

7. Research!
Don't go looking at puppies if you haven't a clue what they are supposed to look like. Or indeed not knowing anything about them. This not only saves the 'buyer' time but the breeders precious time too :)

A couple came to me and after all the usual questions and answers the wife then asks if they moult?   MOULT? only all year round I said, with a couple or three good 'blow-outs' yearly. (I did wonder why she came dressed in black trousers, dark top) Apparently her OH told her they didn't,  but within minutes of being here she found out they did! *rolleyes*

> A lot of you will take this as a no-brainer, but quite often a pup is chosen for you by the breeder.

To turn that a little on it's head I would make
8. Be prepared to take the advise of a responsible breeder as to which puppy is the most appropriate for you and your family.  Infact, be prepared to take the advise of a responsible breeder that you are maybe not able at this point to offer a suitable home to one of their puppies or possibly any dog at present.

i would take slight issue with this as "handling pup yourself" is very different to "choosing pup yourself". For example I rarely let anyone choose their own pup otherwise my pick of litter would be going to a pet home somewhere!!LOL however once I have worked out who is having which pup, and they are in agreement...they can handle it as much as they like! In fact id be shocked if they didnt and seriously re thinking about letting them have one if they didnt handle it.

9. Expect to be ASKED a lot of questions, not just asking questions yourself. A breeder who doesn't ask questions you stay clear of.

10. Expect to sign a sale agreement which will state the puppy is endorsed not for breeding and not for export, and which will also say that if the new owner at any point cannot keep the dog, it should be offered back to the breeder.

For example I rarely let anyone choose their own pup otherwise my pick of litter would be going to a pet home somewhere!!

Yes, same here. If I have a lot of pup and somebody is specifically wanting one for serious agility or similar, I may let them choose as they know what they need, but more often than not I will match the puppy to the owner, not the other way around. Otherwise the most energetic puppy in need of a lot of work may end up with the person who just wants to do pet training and not competitions, and that pup may be too much for them. And vice versa.

> 1- Always see puppies with mum
>

Unless the pup if from a stud fee or breeding terms/loan of bitch arrangement (b8itch may already have gone back to her owners).

> 3.Make sure that the parents have had the relevent health checks done for the breed (make sure you see the paperwork!)

I would say these should be first before even seeing the litter.  Easy to be swayed by bundles of fluff, so being sure of the health testing results before going to see them is wisest, and if they are not in place don't go.

be completely open and honest as to your intention for the puppy before you visit the breeder to ensure you get the right puppy for you.  Is this puppy purely to be your much loved pet or do you have aspirations to start showing and/or do you intend to breed your own puppies from this puppy eventually?

Excellent post Lea I think they are all good but what about making sure you get an owners pack, food sachet, piece of mums bed to help them settle, list of do's and donts like what to avoid in the garden it was a god send to us. Plus the papers were all there and the transfer forms for the KC. That should be in a 1-10 I think.

Agreed my breeder ensured if we want male or female pup. Interviewed us twice really let us handle the males and we picked our pup(well he nibbled OH's ear so he was the one).
Jake's breeder had Colin (OH) go to Worcester to be interviewed even before pup was born and before he took our money. Then we visited twice more before Jake could come home, again we had a breeders pack and papers were signed as he is ISDS so we had to Draw his markings on the forms to get his papers. All which gave us confidence that they were and are great breeders, 18 months on we are still in contact occasionally with them both. Clean, fit, good tempered and now precious dogs to us, best thing we ever did turned our lives around. From old coach potatoes to fitter, healthier dog owners who see more and do more than we have for years.

I second Whistlers points, it should be in 1 - 10.  The new owners need to be advised of how much grooming the dog will need, feeding, socialising, training, walking etc, etc...

Also, to check with the breeder that they can give lifelong support, if needed.  Especially if the new owner has never had a puppy before and of that particular breed.

i had an email yesterday frm a website who were trying to draw up info on every KC breed, for potential puppy buyers to use as a guide...they asked me 10 questions on my breed such as how much room do they need, are they easy to train, how much excercise do they need etc....but then they asked me "and what are the plus points of owning the breed"....and I was stumped as i couldnt think of anything that would appeal to anyone but a mad person!!!LOL

''What to look for in a pup, or its breeding'' ?

I would expect to know/discuss all grooming, feeding aspects, training etc etc long before pups are ready, maybe even before they're born if researched properly?  So, Personally, a 'puppypack' would be the  last thing I would want/look for/expect 
Nearly all, if not all, breeders will offer a life-time of support. Doesn't necessarily mean they will give it. So with that in mind - number ? research breeders and ask around, ''word of mouth'' goes a long way :)

The plus points  is that we don't have to spend so much money on nice clothes anymore ;) old jeans, sweatshirts will do and no expensive facials, the 'mudpacks' delivered by our dogs do just fine :-)

sorry, I should have made my point more clearly--I'm very much in favour of the breeder matching pup to prospective owner, far better than making a relatively uninformed choice oneself--this was not what I was suggesting. I went to meet the breeder and see her dogs before the litter was born, went back again when pups were 5 weeks old, when we were offered one of three dogs--I said I was happy for her to choose for us--then again at 12 weeks to pick up our pup. I was glad to be rigorously interviewed and have real admiration for dedicated breeders who really pull out all the stops to make sure everything works for all concerned.   

Visit breeders beforehand so you can get a hands on experience with the breed . the moor breeders you visit the better,( I.e. ) my sister was looking for a lab pup and visited a litter being sold quite cheep, I told her to visit a litter being sold for more, it was not till she visited the second litter that she could see how different the breeders were, the first breeder was over run with dogs and the pups were not clean, compeard to the second breeder who had a  few dogs and a clean house with clean pups , they were so much more healthy . And join the breed clubs , getting to know the good breeders and the people dedicated to the breed  will help you find a good pup and once breeders have got to know you they will happily point you in the right direction

> i couldnt think of anything that would appeal to anyone but a mad person!!!LOL

No need to bother with decoration cos you get slobber modern art, that sort of thing you mean. :-D

> 2 Always handle the pup yourself and if you need to (or can find someone!), take someone else with you who is experienced at the time of picking up...
>
>

Yes - check bite, for cleft palate, any funny bumps\ shapes of leg, hernias umbilical and inguinl, testicles x2 if a boy, eyes, ears for waxiness & mites....

> 3.Make sure that the parents have had the relevent health checks done for the breed (make sure you see the paperwork!)

Make sure you know what satisfactory results are in that breed and that the rsults fit with that - or if not why not - and ask to see grandparents results too.

Familiarise yourself with conditions common in the breed that may ot be specifically requested to be tested for\ can't be tested for per se but are prevalent, and research the lines for problems.

11. Be suspicious if there is more than one litter about and ask why they would have more than one at a time.

12. Look into show\working results for the pups sire\dam and close relatives - not just 2nd of 2 and 3rd of 3 types preferably. :-D

13. Look at how the pups and other dogs are being kept - are they all crated, or have they got secure free areas/kennels.

14. Expect written guidance from the breeder on socialisation, training (positive), feeding and worming.

> Yes - check bite, for cleft palate, any funny bumps\ shapes of leg, hernias umbilical and inguinl, testicles x2 if a boy, eyes, ears for waxiness & mites....

Maybe I'm wrong here but I would personally be offended by that. I'm sure if someone was buying a puppy on spec with no idea of the reputation of the breeder, this may be appropriate..but it would get my back up.
I suppose I assume that people would expect a certain standard from me and feel that I would deserve their trust.

I don't know.... I wouldn't personally expect a breeder to be offended that I wanted to check the pup over... any more than I would be offended by the breder wanting to find out about me by asking questions!

Maybe picking a puppy from an advert maybe - but I assume that by the time a potential owner finally gets to see my pups, they would not expect me to palm them off with a cleft palate or inguinal hernia.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one then - I like to check things for myself - and I think that is fair enough.

Ok MG

Toolz, you said "Maybe I'm wrong here but I would personally be offended by that. I'm sure if someone was buying a puppy on spec with no idea of the reputation of the breeder, this may be appropriate..but it would get my back up.
I suppose I assume that people would expect a certain standard from me and feel that I would deserve their trust. "

If I am buying a car, which is an inanimate object, with which I hope to keep for a few years, I will check it completely and carefully, regardless of how sparklingly new and shiny it is.   If I am buying a puppy, I am buying a living, breathing creature with whom I hope to live for many years, I would still check it carefully too - after all, which is more important?

> If I am buying a puppy, I am buying a living, breathing creature with whom I hope to live for many years, I would still check it carefully too - after all, which is more important?

If I were buying a car from a car lot I saw advertised in the paper, I would take a friend wih me who would take that car to bits before I would buy.BUT I went to the Mercedes dealership and paid top dollar because I trust that they are top of the range and I trust them. I took the bunch of flowers, the keys and drove home delighted because I know if anything goes wrong they will take resposibility.

I'm sure that many people agree with your opinion but I'm just being honest by saying how I feel. Perhaps I'm too proud of my reputation. There is certainly one advantage of only selling 3 or 4 pups in the last few years though... I can be like that!

I am proud of our reputation too.  Our last litter was way back in 2002 (went to forever homes Jan/Feb 2003 - I can't believe it was that long ago!) but I was happy to let the new owners go over the puppies carefully - after all, I too can benefit from the experience of other breeders.   We had two puppies with minor umbilical hernias which were carefully pointed out to the potential new owners, and were shown the contracts that would go with those two puppies - that we, as the breeders, were prepared to pay for any potential surgery if required before the puppies were nuetered - after all, with umbilical hernias, there would be no question of breeding restrictions being lifted in our opinion.

Remember - even though the Mercedes dealers take the responsibility, they can still produce the "Friday" car!

> BUT I went to the Mercedes dealership

The difference is - unless you're one of these odd car loving men :-D - a car is just about money, it's a lump of metal. If it's guaranteed, fine. A dog is a living breathing loving family member - and that's why I would check with a pup (but not necessarily with a car!) - because it is so important, not to do with trusting or not trusting. IYSWIM. :-)

>BUT I went to the Mercedes dealership and paid top dollar because I trust that they are top of the range and I trust them.

I'm sure you took the car for a test drive first though, didn't you? ;) Even the manufacturer with the best reputation in the world occasionally produces a 'lemon'.

> after all, I too can benefit from the experience of other breeders

Oh me too.
Many fellow breeders like to look at puppies (and I theirs) and I expect them to know what they are looking for -  but if a potential puppy owner looking for a pet (and I assumed that's what this thread was about) started going over one of my puppies to see if I was selling them something with an undisclosed problem..I'm sorry...but I'd be annoyed.

Just MHO.

> Remember - even though the Mercedes dealers take the responsibility, they can still produce the "Friday" car!

Fortunately with our cars, our trust in them has been well founded over the years. That's why we return to them.

> I'm sure you took the car for a test drive first though, didn't you?

No actually I didn't. I took a demonstrator out some time prior but not my actual car.

>If I am buying a puppy, I am buying a living, breathing creature with whom I hope to live for many years, I would still check it carefully too

Not only would I check the puppy from every angle, looking in its ears, checking its bite, checking for a hernia - even counting the number of nipples! - I'd also test its temperament by making a sudden loud noise when it wasn't looking to check its reaction for a confident (or otherwise) recovery from the surprise.

Nepotism - nooooooooooo :-D  similar views on this - Oh yessssssssssss ;)

Had the laptop not just gone into standby in anticipation of a certain jungle prog I'd have posted in exactly the same terms as tooolz ladies :)  Being inquisitive, questioning and thorough is fine - BUT doubt whether my knowledgably produced, lavishly reared and extensively socialised pups would cut the mustard on health, hygeine and husbandry and NOPE, the line would be crossed.

IMO if someone has done their research and been fortunate enough to find a knowledgable and reputable breeder who wants a life long relationship with future puppy owners then building on that two way trust status would be seriously jeopardised if someone tried to check *bite, for cleft palate, any funny bumps\ shapes of leg, hernias umbilical and inguinl, testicles x2 if a boy, eyes, ears for waxiness & mites.... *   it wouldn't sit at all well with me and would effectively prevent such a visitor getting a pup from me or mine.

I'd expect a suitable future puppy owner and myself to have sufficiently discussed many things many times before they ever came to see a litter - any doubts about integrity before or during that stage from either party then IMO there's something not quite right and gut instinct is best acknowledged, whichever one's gut is rumbling :)

I take puppy buyers 'over' their puppy anyway - show them how to best check ears, testes in males, what the optimum colour for pigment is, how to assess the gums and membranes of the eyes for correct colour etc.  Most puppy buyers wouldn't have a hope of finding the testes in dozens of smaller breeds (and often not that great at them in larger breeds either!) I like to ensure that puppy buyers know how to handle their pups and introduce gentle grooming and examination from day one in their new home to keep up the regime which will already have been established for weeks when in my care :)  There is IMO a significant difference in me opting to do this with a new owner rather than said purchaser feeling they NEED to confirm there are no obvious or underlying health or temperament problems.

Teri

>No actually I didn't. I took a demonstrator out some time prior but not my actual car.

I'd never buy a car I hadn't driven. Even cars that come off the assembly line one after the other will handle slightly differently.

Just a point.
As this is a thread about GENERAL rules then a GENERAL rule is to check for these problems.
Anyone that has done the reasearch that they really should have done, and waited months or years for a sopecific breeder will know enough to know that all these things will be checked. So would disregard checking for cleft pallets.
But this thread is aimed at the BASIC rule for Mr Smith wanting a puppy and wanting one now, so trying to steer them to the better breeders even if we cant steer them to the BEST breeders.
Does that make sense??????
Lea :) :) :)

I see from the replies that I am out of step with the concensus which has slightly suprised me.
I cant remember ever being in the position where someone examined a pup to look for cleft palate/hernia/ testicles etc.
Maybe I'm too quick to show the puppy to the potential owner before they get a word in edge-ways :-)

In an earlier thread there was reference to a Harridan...... perhaps that's how I come across to potential owners? Their usual question is " Well...would you consider us for a puppy". Not " I've examined your puppy and I'll take it".

Any way it works for me and my pups .....so I'm happy.

I never test drive my cars - I'm not a fan of a stranger sitting beside me when at the wheel LOL.  I research out of the ones which visually appeal whether they suit me for transporting the mutts from A to B, OH's wheels take care of A to Z occasions, and a few other minor prefs (A/C, ABS, air bags, CL, electric everything/alloys etc) and then pick my preferred interior trim and outer colour.

After all that if the car's doesn't turn out to be what I wanted/expected then I would change it; for problems, return it; for minor niggles that's what warranties are for :)

We're all quite different, aren't we!

> Their usual question is " Well...would you consider us for a puppy". Not " I've examined your puppy and I'll take it".

Ditto :)