http://www.klynnsminpins.com/HarlequinPinschers.html

Just saw this website, and it makes me sick!!!!  PURE BRED HARLEQUIN PINSCHERS it reads. 

Thought the min pins would have been saved from cash hungry people trying to make a buck on disqualifying faults.  But, no, this lady is selling them for more, because they are "rare"

Just makes my blood boil!!!!

Shame she can't breed to type.  $2,000. for them also, agggghhhh!!  Fools and their money.

Unfortunately, you have just given her some free advertising :(

>>>Only the FIRST generation has Rat Terrier Blood (F1's), the next breeding from 2nd generation to 8, 9 10 generation is PURBRED AKC MINPINS!

Thus producing a PUREBRED!<<<<

this is taken right from her site, doesnt make sense to me!!!!  How can it be pure, if its got mixed linage?  Mind you, at Generation 10, the mix is small, but its still there!

You know, I was so mad, I didnt even think of that!

But hopefully, after people read that site, they realize she is scamming, and looses customers.

Surely a more correct term for them would be Merle? but wouldn't sound so..... attractive ;)

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES4.html
This page (and the whole genetics section) shows how you can breed out the outcross in 4 generations if you know what you're doing and have DNA testing help ;)   but that doesn't mean that this is what has been done in the case of these Pinschers ;)   

NOT saying that what she is doing is right ;) and charging HUGE prices for something that isn't registerable is definately a scam as far as I'm concerned, no different to all the 'doodles' etc. :(

Has anyone read though the site?  To me it appears she is breeding a dog that was around many many years ago.  She has alot of information on the site and dexcribes the whole merle/harliquin name situation.  Not sure how much of it is true though.

"Puppies are sold on a spay/neuter contract" also comes from her site, aswell as a clear notice that she's not intrested in selling to those who just want to "have one litter"

That's to make her look good, I wonder how many do actually neuter them and if she bothers chasing it up?

She's gone to some effort then with the website.  Al enghy contract (including stating that puppies must be returned to her or she will help find a new home), mentions all vacinations will be given, gets all new buyers to fill in a questionnaire before she will contact them if they are suitable for her puppy....Seems alot to go though to make afew buck and if not, is lying on her site and puttiing off those who wan't a "rare" puppy and will pay their lifesavings to get one!

> That's to make her look good, I wonder how many do actually neuter them and if she bothers chasing it up?

you can't presume that, we don't know how she actually opperates. it seems odd to me as well but if (as she states) this used to be a feature of the breed then i can see her reasoning for trying to breed it. i've never understood the reason for classing something that occurs naturally in the breed as a mismark (eg, long coat gsd's). not an expert on this so can anyone enlighten me why there are limits on aliels (sp?) that appear naturally in a pedigree example of a breed?

Also if you do some more research, even the UK min pin club site mentions about the colour and how it was/used to be.

With only the information avalible it sounds this person is trying to revive an old breed.

If no-one did this, with any breed, I would not be owning my lovely red and whites, go back some generations and you will find red setters in red and white pedigrees :)

see i don't see any problem with that, i think its a good thing to try and preserve different types. everyone has different things they like in a breed, why not accept the natural variation that is style true to pedigree type?

I agree she seems to be doing well and isnt harming the breed from what has been said, she is making people pay over the odds of course but her justification for that is probably how hard it is to breed those Merle colours and if they are natural to the breed then why not try and bring them back :)

The only thing I have a massive problem with is the Ear Cropping :( :( Why does anyone offer to do this anymore???!!!

Sorry, but I think they're pretty and if fools want to pay so much for one, at least they shouldn't end up in care. They have some kind of finantial value to their owners, if not emotional for some? As for the ear cropping? Well I'm dead against that!

But ear cropping is something that happends in america still.  It's all about supply and demand.

I'm guessing similar debates go on about docking, so lets not get into one of those! ;)

Spiritulist - I thought they were pretty too :-D

There is a big difference between creating a new breed of dog and mixing two existing breeds to recreate a colour that has long since been lost. You cannot re-open the stud book just because you want to re introduce a colour.

> You cannot re-open the stud book just because you want to re introduce a colour

But surely that is exactly what was done with the Red and White Setters?

And somebody told me, but I don't know how true it is, that black Skye Terriers come from an outcross to a black cocker spaniel, and originally they were either cream or silver!!!!!

At least with the Harlequin Pinschers she's re-creating a lost colour, not just making a completely new one. I'd rather have that than a doodle :)

If the breed was meant to have this Merle colour, then it wouldnt have been a fault.  This colour was always a fault, and to breed a fault on purpose?  Later, it did become a disqualification. 

She is claming that these Merles are pure bred miniature pinschers.  This is simply not the case.  She has 6 Generations of Min Pin x Rat Terrier.  The last 4 generations have been bred back to the miniature pinscher.  They are still a mixed breed.  They havent been bred true long enough to be considered a colour on their own.  Kinda like the logic, of if you breed two Labradoodles together, do you now have a pure bred labradoodle?  No, you still have a designer mutt. 

Also, if she wanted to preserve this colour, and breeding for the Merle Pinschers, then why is she not wanting to sell to another Miniature Pinscher breeder?  Surely this would only help the breed colour? 

Also, a dog shouldnt be sold for different prices, depending on colours.  I do not know one Miniature Pinscher breeder, that sells black and tans for more or less than the reds.  They are all the same price.  The only time dogs are sold for different prices (as puppies) are when the breeders get a colour that is less desirable, and they are sold for less, not more. 

There is just to much, as a min pin person, that can not be agreed with.  Just my opinion though.

Sorry to intrude but what are people's thoughts on parti-poodles?

Mismarks, as you get in many other breeds. Perfectly nice pets. :-)

Crespin I agree the resulting puppies are not pure bred Miniature Pinschers they are crossbreeds and selling them as anything else is misleading if not dishonest.

> But ear cropping is something that happends in america still.&nbsp; It's all about supply and demand.

It's not just supply and demand - it's about 'freedom of choice' over there as well.  Every so often, the government officials of a state try to bring in a bill to ban cropping, and the breeders and owners get up in arms to resist it based on freedom of choice and it gets overturned.

I quite understand, Crespin and Minpin, just why you are so upset about this - I'm sure I would be exactly the same if it were my breed :). But as an outsider looking in, it's a fascinating exercise. There are lots of breeds where an outcross has been done for various reasons, like the Irish R/W setters and the Irish Wolfhound, where the breed was virtually recreated by using a Great Dane outcross. It's a perfectly valid way of going about it from a genetic point of view.

BUT, I do agree that she seems to be too interested in the money aspect :(.  Nice, though, that she's concentrating on breeding good ears without the necessity for cropping.

must say, i am falling in love with minpins natural eared min pin!!!!!!!!

Some breeders over here are leaving their dogs natural eared, know a couple breeders who are showing naturals.  It may be a bit harder to get a CH on one, but they are coming out!!!!!!