Sorry Zarah!  Didn't see that!

I don't, but now that vets are more acceptable of the three year issue I may do it this way.  As hypothyroidism and other health problems are felt to be maybe affected by yearly vaccinations, I wonder if their numbers will come down?  Will be interesting to see in maybe 10 years time.

No I don't do it, did the puppy shot and then titre tested when booster was due. After one of our dogs died after a yearly booster we decided to do it right this time round and we don't vaccinate and we feed raw.

As we had to leave the dogs in a kennels we found a kennel who accepts a high titre reading OR homeopathic nosodes.  As one of the titre readings was low we went down the nosode route.  I think if you have a look at canine health concerns website, you will see they have brought out a dvd about vaccinations and it is very interesting to see what negative comments experienced vets have on over vaccination, most think dogs only need puppy vacs.  There are also breeders and dog trainers on there giving their reasons for not vaccinating etc.  Here is the link to the website for anyone interested in the dvd:   http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

Both of my dogs had adverse reactions to puppy jabs - horrendous to say the least :(

They both have titre tests although my Vet's weren't overly happy because they said that it didn't test for immunity against all deseases and some couldn't be tested for, Leptospirosis being the main one.

I am fairly confident judging by their last tests that they are immune sufficient.

As for Insurance Co's, my last Company were happy as long as the desease/illness that they needed treatment for was not as a result of not being vaccinated. I also treat mine with Homeopathic Nosodes. I also do not give them conventional worm treatments they have herbal treatments that have not let us down - yet.

I am a great believer in nature and my dogs are also fed BARF -  when compared to the dogs that I had 20 yrs ago they are signifignantly healthier, including never  needing anal gland emptying.

This has got me very worried! My two Chihuahuas have always had their boosters every year. One is epileptic should he not have a booster?

Also once both my dogs did have a bad reaction to the booster. They were like zombies all night and when I went to pick them up they would yelp out in pain. I was very worried but the next day they were fine. My two boys are 12 and 10 now what do you advise? I've alwsy had them done because I've always flt that if they got something and died then I would never forgive myself

i do

just in case, as its got to be better to do it an to risk them getting a horriable illness.

Only a decision you can make, but I personally wouldn't (certainly not the one with epilepsy). I am amazed that vets continue to vaccinate all animals regardless of their state of health, despite it being in plain english on the package insert that "only healthy animals should be vaccinated". Also on the package insert that my old vets booster with every year "Duration of immunity: three years"!

Edited

"Ilse Pedler also noticed the onset of epilepsy in animals post-vaccination. Indeed, this corroborates our own research, which recorded 73.1% of dogs with epilepsy developing it within three months of a vaccine event. Merck lists epilepsy as a symptom of encephalitis. I wonder how many vets think to report post-vaccinal epilepsy to the Veterinary Medicine Directorate's adverse events surveillance scheme? In the human field, compensation has been paid to parents whose children were found to be vaccine-induced epileptics, sadly confirmed on autoposy. Merck, you will remember, lists epilepsy as a symptom of encephalitis, and vaccines as a cause of encephalitis".

>I am amazed that vets continue to vaccinate all animals regardless of their state of health, despite it being in plain english on the package insert that "only healthy animals should be vaccinated".

Remember that for the purposes of vaccination "healthy" means that the animal isn't showing any detectable sign of illness at that time. No fever, no ear infections, no diarrhoea, no eczema etc.

>Remember that for the purposes of vaccination "healthy" means that the animal isn't showing any detectable sign of illness at that time. No fever, no ear infections, no diarrhoea, no eczema etc.

Isn't defined on the insert. How can a dog with an incurable illness/lifelong condition be defined as a "healthy" animal, regardless of whether or not they are showing symptoms at the exact moment of vaccination..?

>How can a dog with an incurable illness/lifelong condition be defined as a "healthy" animal

Sir Steve Redgrave had developed diabetes before he won his 5th Gold medal. Could he possibly be described as being 'unhealthy' when he won that race?

If he'd had a cold or other disease (not 'condition') at the time, no, he wouldn't have been healthy.

Diabetes isn't really something I was thinking of to be honest and I agree that I wouldn't say he was "unhealthy" (although my friend's dog is at death's door with diabetes that seems impossible to control at the moment).

Certainly any dog with illness or disease that is obviously linked to the immune system I would not describe as "healthy" for a start.

I think the definition of healthy depends on whose' doing the interpretation.  It amazes me nowadays that people can have lifelong condition and still be determined as healthy.

Healthy mean healthy to me; no signs of any illness whatsoever.  An illness that requires medication to keep it under control cannot be described as healthy IMO.

>Sir Steve Redgrave had developed diabetes before he won his 5th Gold medal. Could he possibly be described as being 'unhealthy' when he won that race?

In my view, yes to unhealthy as he has an underlying condition but also yes to physically fit.  Physically fit and healthy are 2 different entities IMO.

>I think the definition of healthy depends on whose' doing the interpretation.

And vets, being human too, will also have their own interpretion.

>An illness that requires medication to keep it under control cannot be described as healthy IMO.

For me, as long as the medication is keeping the animal or person able to live a 'normal', painfree life, then that counts as healthy IMO. Migraine is a debilitating condition which requires medication - is a migraine sufferer to be branded as 'unhealthy' for life?

Taking Steve Redgrave again, if he's taking his medication correctly then nobody, not even doctors taking blood tests, would be able to detect his condition. How is his body then different to that of a non-diabetic?

Each to their own; :-D from my perspective, I don't agree. :-P

If someone has got to rely on a med to stop them being sick then they are not healthy IMO.  If there was no meds available, they would be sick.

Vaccinations should only be given to healthy dogs.  A dog having to rely on a med to stop them from being sick is not a healthy dog IMO. 

>If someone has got to rely on a med to stop them being sick then they are not healthy IMO.

If meds make a condition undetectable and do not affect the quality of life, then the individual is as healthy as anyone/anything else, IMO.

We'll have to agree to differ. :-)

>In my view, yes to unhealthy as he has an underlying condition but also yes to physically fit.  Physically fit and healthy are 2 different entities IMO.

I was pondering diabetes/health further this afternoon when I was thinking of what my friend's dog with diabetes has gone through over the last few months and came to a similar conclusion - I wouldn't describe Steve Redgrave as unhealthy in terms of fitness, but taken into account he has a life threatening condition that requires daily medication in order to keep him alive I wouldn't describe him as healthy overall. His body and health are compromised, regardless of the fact that the symptoms might be kept in check by medication.

My friend's dog would be long dead without 2 injections of insulin every day.

This is a well-balanced article.

Jeangenie, from the article you linked, it appears even vaccine manufacturers think it would be better if we could test our dog for immunity, although they seem to think the fact you might have to wait 2-3 weeks for the results is a negavtive, and therefore don't mention it as an alternative to vaccination.

I have nothing against vaccination as such, but as long as I can show, via blood tests, that my dog is immune, why do I need to vaccinate her?

>as long as I can show, via blood tests, that my dog is immune, why do I need to vaccinate her?

You don't have to. If you don't want to, then don't. To quote the author of that article "Through 38 years of managing pet diseases and seeing tens of thousands of patients live well into their teens that have had numerous vaccines almost yearly throughout their entire lives, I am not convinced by experience that vaccinating has a destructive effect on the overwhelming majority of animals.  "

It seems that if an individual reacts badly to a vaccination it would also react badly to the genuine article.

Apart from the fact that the author is onyl one person, and for all we know may simply not attribute problems to vaccinations, the fact that the majority of animals may not be affected is irrelevant to me.

My dog is immune, vaccinating her will not 'boost' her immunity. Al it wil do is line the vaccine manufacturers pockets and potentially, no matter how small the risk, do her harm. So ther eis far more reason for me not to vacicnate.

My German Shepherd is due for his 1st booster as he is 13 mths old, he had all his puppy jabs.
We previously lost a dog to Parva when we first moved to the house we are in now, it was a horrible and very quick death. (he had never been injected for Parvo, but neither had our other dog, and he never got it at all) We have a wood behind our fence so obviously have always walked our dogs there. This year my new German Shepherd became really ill with Parvo type symptoms (very bloody and loose stools,with sickness) and wouldn't eat and wasn't drinking much. I took him to the vets who tested his very offensive stool sample and said it wasn't Parvo.  He had an antibiotic injection straight away and a course of antibiotics in tablet form to follow. I really thought he was going to die that night, his fur was coming out in clumps and he just lost pure blood from his back passage, but in the morning  he was improving.
My cousins pup, who was only 4 mths old (who had never been in contact with my dog, but was walked in the woods)  had died just the week before with the same symptoms, he had his injections for parvo,and the vet also said, it was similar to Parvo but not Parvo. I think maybe it could have been Parvo and my dog got through it because he had had his injection and was strong, or maybe there are just so many strains that it is like a lottery if the dog picks up the right strain, the injection will help, but if its one of the other strains, then they have no chance.What do you think?

From my understanding, there are 2 parvo types - CPV-1 and CPV-2

The vaccine is effective against CPV-2 and variants; there is no vaccine available for CPV-1, however, CPV-1 is not believed to be associated with clinical disease.

There are 2 types prevalent in the UK currently, CPV-2a and CPV-2b which are variants of CPV-2. 

A recent new variant has been identified, CPV-2c or F-Strain as some call it. The vaccine is believed to cross-protect.

http://customers.intervet.co.uk/news/2006-07-31_-_nobivac_dhppi_provides_protection_against_parvovirus_type_2c.asp

I lost my last two dogs to auto immune disease aged just 4yrs and 7 yrs.
I would never ever want to put a dog through what mine went through again.  So no I don't routinely vaccinate.  I always titre test now and My JRT has only ever had his puppy vaccs and never needed another booster yet, as his titre readings have always been exremely high.  In fact so high that had he been routinely vaccinated then he may well also have got auto immune disease by now.

I have phoned round a few of our top boarding kennels locally and all when explained to about the titre test and after speaking to thier own vets said yes they would board both my dogs quite happily on production of an up to date titre result.
Just because your dog is vaccinated, it doesn't mean they are covered against the diseases anyway, just like us humans, sometimes they don't take up the vaccination.

Pammy, I don't know what testing facilities your vet uses but this is interesting...

'There is one definite concern about the new strain for owners of dogs of any age, said Kennedy, but it doesn't have anything to do with prevention. It has to do with a diagnostic test for canine parvovirus known as an ELISA test.

"Most of the (test) kits pick up the virus in the fecal sample by using an antibody to capture it, to pull it out of the poop," she said. If antibodies are a hook, little particles of a virus known as "epitopes" are the eye that the hook catches. Even though the virus hasn't changed enough that it can elude the immunity to other strains, if it changed in that one epitope, the antibody won't "catch" on the virus, and the test will give a false negative.

"We have seen, in a couple of cases, these anecdotal reports from veterinarians saying, 'Look, the ELISA's negative but this looks like parvo,'" Kennedy told me. "And I tell them, 'Send me a sample.' And we test it by these other methods, like electron microscopy, where we take the feces and actually look at it under an electron microscope and look for parvo. It doesn't matter if it's 2b, 2c, or you know, elephant parvo, we could see it. So that test works." Another test, known as a PCR, is also able to detect the new strain of parvovirus, and Kennedy has seen some cases in her lab that were negative on the in-house test run by the dog's vet, but positive when she used other methods. '

From this article..

http://cdn.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/02/19/petscol.DTL

This is all new to me I never knew there was any danger with my dogs having their boosters. What is interesting about what you are saying about epilepsy is that my dog it 12 and developed epilepsy 2 years ago! He is just epileptic it isn't related to any tumour or anything as he's been checked out. It's all very worrying as they did have a very bad reaction to their boosters a few years back as well.

How willing are vets to let me have this test done on my two? They had their boosters in January so I wouldn't need to get them tested for a while yet. Also once I was about 4 months past the date they should have had their boosters. I was told by a vet that they would have to start from fresh with their vaccinations that they would have as a puppy. What do people think about this?

I am actually quite upset now that having their boosters could well have brought on Cookies epilepsy. The time he had a reaction he was literally zombie like and he would yelp almost scream out in pain if I even tried to pick him up. I never linked this to his seizures but they started two years ago and it was 2 or 3 years back that he had this bad reaction!

My two boys are 12 and 10 and I am desperate to keep them as long as possible. I couldn't bear to lose them.

I'm going to ask to have this test done when they are due for their boosters. How often does the test need to be done? What does it involve? A blood sample? Thanks

Your vet can easily do it for you.  It just involves taking a simple blood sample and sending it off to Gasgow or if you want the lepto tested for as well then Idexx would be the lab to send it to.
Don't let your vet fob you off or charge you silly money either.  Some vets are very good and actually are for it some are not.
Some vets also get the cost wrong when sending off to Glasgow as they tick the box to have each thing tested seperatly which is much more expensive.  Further down the form it allows you to have them all tested for one fee, much cheaper.
I have mine tested either yearly or two yearly depending on the test results, some people do 3 yearly.
Just to add I would not want to be routinely vaccinating a dog that suffers with either epilepsy or allergies, they are at an even greater risk of side effects and problems.

My children are more precious to me than my dog and I got them all vaccinated

Yes but you have never had annual boosters for the kids they only ahve ahd at msot 3 sets of vaccinations if they are now adults.

3 sets of dip, polio and the other one when they were tiny babies, boosters of these before school and boosters when they leave school, also, BCG, MMR and Hibs. Daughter in NZ also had booster for tetnus and had Typhoid jab.

Anyway, it's irrelevant whether or not they have the vaccs each year or not. The vaccs they have as babies are the most worrying because they're the ones they are most likely to react to.  Nevertheless, we each weigh up the pros and cons and make our decisions based on the information given to us.  Having looked at the incidences of childhood diseases that can cause debilitating health problems compared to the very small number of health problems thought to be caused by the vaccinations probability dictated it was more sensible to vaccinate than risk them getting the diseases.  The more parents who don't vaccinate their children more likely the incidences of diseases will increase and therefore the more need there will be to vaccinate.

IMO the same applies to dogs.  Titre testing is all well and good but I get the feeling that once a dog has been tested well a few times complacency may set in for a few. At the end of the day I look around and think that generally the dogs I see look well cared for but it only takes one to carry disease.

But this thread is about annual boosters, and we don't give many boosters to people, as you said the puppy (sorry baby) course, and then booster several years later and then again several years later again and the one offs like BCG (no longer routine) and MMR. 

So as I said only about two or three boosters on top of the initial ones.  This for a much longer lived organism.

I think the main difference between human vaccinations and canine ones in the UK is that the cost of the human ones is generally met though the NHS, so only those really deemed necessary are given.

There are plenty of parents who would disagree about the necessity of vaccines. The increases in Measles has shown that. Human vaccines are not lifelong either but just vaccinating babies and children reduces the incidences of diseases across the whole population

The problem with canine vaccines (and I am going by what I've read on here during the past couple of years) is that their effectiveness varies over time between different dogs.  One dog might retain anti-bodies for years whereas others might not so you need to test for the anti-bodies (titre testing) or vaccine regularly.  One way or the other the vet is getting paid so the money side doesn't seem to play a convincing part.

I have a border and a cocker and all boosters are up to date plus I have kennel cough vaccine as well. No problems with the dogs at all. I think if I keep them up to date the insurance will cover anything else. I know thats simplistic but I just think i would do/ have done the same with my kids and I love the dogs as much.

My min pins are what they call reactors.  Casie, got her shots, and swelled up so bad, her skin was splitting!  Looked horrid, and rushed her into the vets to get it taken control of.  Cher, on the other hand, only gets a bit of hives, and is given antihistamine. 

Casie, she needs to be treated with Prednisone before she gets her needles. 

But, both are still vacinated for everything but Lepto.  The vets here, said its lepto that gives the reactions, and it is really common to see a reaction in a toy breed.

Well they had their boosters this January so I've got a good long while to think about all this. I think I will discuss everything with my vet and see what he says. I've always trusted his opinion. My main worry is Cookie he's older now and with his epilepsy it is a worry.

My dogs get annual boosters, but not the full course every year.  The full course is given every three years.

I did stop vaccinating, but now I do believe as I have lost dogs with so many different things, how on earth could I live with myself losing a dog with something I could have prevented so easily. I vaccinate all but my eldest boy as he is suffering strokes and is on borrowed time.