Crikey there's lots of dogs in the US and Australia (And creeping into the UK) that are stuck into the most unnatural stances for the ring!   The dog is postioned so it's hindquarters are so overstretched and it stands just about on it's toes..maybe we should be looking at this too?  

That is why I prefer to see dogs free standing as is traditional in our breed.  Yes the dogs do fidget and often don't stand still for long, but is showing really about the dog that stands in pose the longest, or about the judge being able to see enough to evaluate and compare the dogs.

i dont like how some show dogs are strung up when they are moving either

Nope me neither.  There is a difference between the dog knowing the lead is there and they need to keep their noses off the ground, and actually holding the dog up by the neck.  A quick check on start and then a loose lead should be the ideal.

with cheese wire chains

I love the snake like chains that I use sold by Luxway Canine Supplies (and I assume others) they are great as they don't catch in the coat and loosen and slide nicely.  They also seem to be robust, as well as very attractive, like the sort you would wear as jewelry.  I never use a check chain on pups preferring an all chain half slip, as they wear half slips at home.

The only reason I use a chain at all is that they hide in the coat ruff better without disrupting the flow of the neck that a collar pushing/puling the coat up often does.

yes i agree they look fab....BUt then you dont string the dog up on one do you?

nope, only give it a couple of quick flicks if they are getting their heads down, but voice and the bait are enough usually.

like most equipment,it can (& i believe) is abused,by some people,i dont like to see heads held up by them in the ring, esp on the move,you often see dogs shaking their heads uncomfataby

My Lexi was one of those.  It was a nightmare to find a collar that I could use in the ring and still get control without her shaking her head throughout her movement pattern, she just cannot seem to tolerate any pressure on her neck when moved, yet I don't have any such issue when she is walked, and she can even be inclined to pull into her collar, often sideways, especially when contemplating finding a spot to poo.:rolleyes:

In the end I just had to get it just right so that it was in the right place on her neck and exerting minimum pressure, and maximum use of voice, but moderated enough not to over excite and cause a tiggerish performance.

Show handling looks so easy doesn't it

if people @ a ob show strung their dogs up like that they would be reported to the KC :(

Like I was explaining?  I don't string my dogs up?

yes  i was talking about those who do!

its strange what is accepted in some dog circles & not in others?

Its clear to me that there is a big difference in how the horses heads are held. I think in the first lot of pictures that Carla showed the horses looked restrained and 'unnnatural' , their necks almost bent double
:( 
Rox, I think I can see what you are getting at about 'obedience' dogs, but they are free to move their heads are they not? even if they're not supposed to, they could if they wanted to because they are not 'held' upright.

Missie, again I don't know about horses but surely a horses head and neck muscles are stronger then those in a humans arms?  If they wanted to I'm sure they could move.

your still putting obedience dogs in an unnatural position, wheather they are free to move or not.

I'm not saying that the way the horses are held is right by all means.  It is unnecessery.

On the first set of photo's some of the rains looked loosend to me meaning either the horses necks are built that way (very wrong won't agree with that) or the horses have been trainned like that, the same as obedience dogs holding their heads up.

I believe there is an element of trainng - using very tight draw reins or de gogue's (sp) I think that force the neck into that unatural position. Train a horse for long enough in a gadget that forces its head down via its mouth and it will assume that position constantly. An easier way to explain it is that they attach 2 reins to the bit and pull them through the front legs and attach them to the girth - and make them nice and tight. Imagine how many hours a horse would have to work like that before it learned to stay that way.... Not comfortable.

If you imagine a horse running in the wild and compare it to the pics of those horses head carriage - you will see just how unatural it is.

Is it not unnatural for make a greyhound (or any other sight hound) "trot" when, while doing it's job it would gallop!

It may not be nice but it's just as incorrect as half the things going on in the show world :(  unfortantly humans want to "exagerate" everything. 

Think of this years Crufts BIS winner....would he run round hearding sheep the same as he ran round the crufts rings?  (I hope not!!!!)

Just imagine being forced to run with your chin strapped to your chest and then tell me if you think its comparable to changing a dogs gait... seriously - because that is what these people are doing. They are curling a neck over itself, forcing a chin onto a chest, stopping the horse seeing and causing problems right through the back - to win a competition!

now you walk with your head up looking at a person, not where you are going and changing direction in many tight turns and tell me that's compleatly different.....

That's done only to win a competition....

Maybe the movement is slighlty different....

its completly different rox, though like in any sport there are extremes. luckily in obedience these "extreme" styles"rarely" get placed.
in this case it seems this extreme is very successful

Hi Rox,

perhaps for clarity it's better compared to having a small dog on a head collar with it's head yanked up and restrained in that position to look constantly at a tall handler.   If this were seen to be done in a training club and someone on here to recommend it there would be an uproar ;) and rightly so!  Comparing an off lead, free moving dog which is trained without resorting to equipment / gadgets other than food, toys, praise, clicker etc to what is being done to these horses is way off the mark - there is no comparison in the methods used or results achieved.

regards, Teri

But I am not saying that is right either!

Also - if you look at the 2 pictures you will see that Pippa is riding in a mild bit, on the second the horse is in a much stronger bit - some sort of pelham. Now, a soft bit can be harsh when used by someone with hard hands, but I would say that horse is evading the action....all adding to it overbending.

Some pics for you:
Snaffle:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/jpg/A4snaffl.jpg

The horses on the horsesforlife site have a Snaffle on the top rein then a pelham with a curb aswell...

http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/images/pelham-port-lg.jpg

on the bottom ring at that - the most severe setting...

>your still putting obedience dogs in an unnatural position<

but Rox, Im talking about the ethics od training being comparable ( in dog v horse world) your talking in the quote above about the dynamics being comparable.

Not so!!!!!!!!

Remember a horse is under downward and upward force and propulsion at this time with a load on its back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An obedience dog is not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know its a long read..but if your interested in comment on this topic grab a  min to read the link ChloeH put up on page one for susstainable dressage...it will give further insight into this.

I put this further up.

Normally, in a mild bit and normal cavesson noseband (one that has little or no effect on the hrose), yes, a horse is much much stronger than a human.

These horses are ridden in double bridles, with a snaffle (normally fairly mild) bit and a curb bit. The curb bit is very very strong, in fact in some cases very severe.

This acts on the tongue and the roof of the mouth (just prod the roof of your mouth and then squish your tongue and see how that feels), and ALSO under the chin where the curb chain sits.

The bit ahs long shanks that you can see in the picture, this acts like a lever meaning the rider can apply MUCH more pressure, squeezing the chin and tongue together and hitting the roof of the mouth with the port (raised upside down u shape).

This is a bit to be used lightly - very long shanked curb bits are often used in western riding... watch any old western movie, and you will see that whilst t hey rarely put pressure on the reins (they ride with little or no contact unlike english riding), whent hey DO, the horses head goes up and the mouth opens if the bit is used too sharply.

These hroses in teh photos cannot do that, they CANT open their mouths suffieciently to evade thebit, their mouths are strapped shut with tightly fitting padded crank nosebands (can be done up much tighter than  a normal cavesson noseband), the lever action of the curb bit means the rider can put far far more force on the sensitive parts of the hroses mouth causing him to pick the lesser of two evils... go around with his chin on h is chest.

Its therefore NOTHING like obedience dogs who go around with their heads up gazing at their handlers.

Em

There is also the nutcracker action into the roof of the mouth of a normal snaffle to take into consideration with a horse that has its mouth strapped shut...

Night and day between the two photos - one is harmonious, natural and an obvious partnership whereas the other is grotesque by comparison.

Could have said it better Teri. Very sad.

That looks seriously uncomfortable and unnatural positions to be contorting the poor horses necks into!  The horses do not look happy - you can see it in their eyes.  The owners are obviously having to hold the rains pulled tight.  How can the horses breathe properly and swollow properly like that!?! :rolleyes:

from a non-horsey person

Going purely from the stills, and regardless of whether it's unkind or cruel or not, clicker-trained or forced, from an artist's point of view the lines are elegant and identical to paintings and sculptures from centuries ago. Don't the Spanish Riding School horses adopt similar positions when they perform the ancient war-horse moves?

No no no JG - the lines are NOT elegant! The perfect position is above with Pippa Funnel - that is what you are looking to achieve - not that hideous overbend. Its absolutely horrible to see and even THAT is not what they do in the test afterwards (not desirable).

Here are some andalusions (Spanish):

<a class='url' href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/royal_welsh/images/2005/wednesday/spanishhorses/escuela3_340x255.jpg'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/royal_welsh/images/2005/wednesday/spanishhorses/escuela3_340x255.jpg</a>

Can you not see how much higher the head carriage is?

or this:

<a class='url' href='http://www.sussexlusitanos.co.uk/images/Numerario%20at%20Belmordean.JPG'>http://www.sussexlusitanos.co.uk/images/Numerario%20at%20Belmordean.JPG</a>

?? Can you not see the difference between the head on the chin and above?

The chin is in the chest in one picture here, and here's a mare loose in the same position.

What I mean by elegant is that, from the point of view of someone who draws and paints, curves are attractive and pleasing to the eye ...

I think I am going to give up now. I presume the one you mean is the one where the horse is performing a specific spanish movement - very difficult and very quick - not warming up or being trained for long periods in the same position.

The mare running in the field is a snapshot of her stretching down. Huge difference between that and a horse being forced into that position with a rider on its back.

However, what this has proven is that 99% of non-horsey folk can see that this is unatural - and thats very interesting.

That's why I said that I was commenting purely on the stills images. ;) :) But it shows that the position is one that horses will adopt naturally, even if only for brief periods. Whether or not it's uncomfortable for them to hold that position, I don't know enough about the species for my opinion to be valid. I'll leave that to the specialists (that's you horsy peeps! ;))  :)

Yes, but the point is that this is how they are riding these horses for long periods of time. The stills show a snapshot - the videos are worse! :)

IMO the loose mare is flexing her neck.  I doubt very much that she went round the whole field in that position.  Any horse will flex it's neck in that way.  I would imagine that if that was a video clip you'd soon see her bring her head up.  The difference being that they only do it for a moment and are not forced into working in that position.

Debs

They may be JG, that is in the eye of the beholder and only a picture after all, not causing distress in real terms to a real animal. This manner of riding is however, and to me if the people that ride this way, even if 'only warming up' cant warm up by correct riding proceedures, rather than the misuse of artificial aides, then I dont think much to them as riders. or horse lovers. To reach this standard of dressage they know about the structure of the horse, what muscles they are working and to what result, so they must therefore know what strains they are putting on the horse they are riding,yet to win a competition they continue. True horsemen/women....not in my opinion.

are these pro riders ,riding other peoples horses?
or are they their own?

I *think* they are pro riders who train and compete other folks horses... I would imagine they also ride their own?

that would explain it:rolleyes:

Interesting then that the Spanish Olympic teams DO NOT use this training method!!!!!!! Not advocated by any of their past/present Chef d'Equipes!!!!!!!!! (Capt Mark Phillips trained their teams for a while...but they got over that! ;) )

the point im trying to make is.....hasent this always been around? & now its just got a name?

The Spanish Riding School is, of course, in Austria! ;) :D

oi! oi!...Im getting confused!! :rolleyes: :D
Who trains in Jerez then? thats who Im thinking of, urgggh Ive been there many times from Gibraltar,and cant now think!!

ah yes I see..chloe put links up to Andalusions.. thats what Im refering to not the Lippizaners or the Spanish riding school JG ;) sorry i thought thats where we were up to as its only a few boxes above. (Im skim reading now and missing branches)

They may not have a 'repore' with the horse if they are only competing on it, but if true horsemen/women they should still not have to rely on artificial aides to acheive the result natural aides give. if theirs or not, thay know the damage they are doing, so where is the mastership in that?

Interesting thread. From an european horseriders point of view...
I´m afraid my english skills isnt good enough to participate in this particular debate, but will only say that bending the horses head like shown in some of the pictures happens shortly to loosen them up and "bend" them.
Some will ride low and long, other will ride in and up. It all depends on the specific horse and where you´re at.

Really just wanted to say that pictures doesnt explain or tell the full story

thanks for putting the other side!

to my mind it will be they will only get their rides if they win

Well if i can add my twopenneth worth!1

Sirstly, i don't agree that horses should be trained that way. What are they 'teaching' them anyway? How to evade the bit?

Secondly, They aren't acheiving anything, as the point of being 'on the bit' is to engage the hindquarters. None of those hindquarters were engaged. look at how poor some of the tracking up is.

Thirdly, it looks to me as though some of this comes from the riders holding on with their hands. (this may sound obvious, but i mean holding to keep [their position) alook at the  riders legs. they are not even in contact with the horse in some pictures and very tight in the knee in others. Perhaps this is to help them stay on their big moving warmbloods (thats a whole other debate;-))

I am sure the horses would suffer from headaches after this. As for the picture of the mare loose in the field, i think she is just starting to lower her head to 'snake' it from side to side. As they sat, "the camera never lies" but we all know it does. ;-) This photo was probably choosen because it shows a 'typical' andalusian posture.

Can i just say re bits, Pippa Funnell would only be allowed to use a snaffle at that level of dressage as it is only PSG up that you can use a double. It is a good photo to show the lack of tracking up is the other pic though.

What about the practice of dressage horses being 'too valuable' to go out in a field? How can a horse be too valuable to be a horse? And how can top class racehorses (who are waaay more valuable) go out then?

Just to mention about Horatio Nelson, (horse injured and pts after Derby) the injury he sustained was not connected to the pre-race examination. Amongst his other injuries he sustained a twisted fetlock. This would indicate that Epsom's famous undulations took their toll. Very unfortunatley especially as he was arguably the best bred horse in the world. Worth multi millions (much much more than any dressage horse;-))

>What about the practice of dressage horses being 'too valuable' to go out in a field?

I know my son's friend's dressage horses are out in the field during the day.

I had to laugh at my son's shock when he realised how cheap most horses are - he'd assumed that they all cost upwards of eighty grand!! :D :D We explained that most people have old bangers not Jaguars! :D

I am sure most  'normal peoples'  ;-) dressage horses go out, but the 'top professionals' :rolleyes: don't. There was an article in Horse and Hound a few weeks ago about it.

<how cheap most horses are>

buying them is the cheapest part ;-) :D :D even a £1 pony is very easily going to cost £80k if it runs up a nice vet bill!!!:D :D ( and it probably would if i owned it!)