yep, Hal was 100% traffic/lorry/bus tractor proof but unfortunatly was not binbag,or drain cover proof.

infact sometimes when she was spooking at something stupid & leaping onto a car for protection i wished she was a little more wary of traffic.,

bless her,i miss her tons :( :(

Yip forgot that bit :-)

I hardly think that posts like yours are likely to calm the situation Blue :).  I suspect that Michelle just feels she is getting ganged up on here for having a different opinion and has responded accordingly.  I think people are well aware they shouldn't be swearing and don't need to be told off like naughty children, which is just provocative IMO.

I hardly think that posts like yours are likely to calm the situation Blue :-).

Oh please, re read my post , I was trying in the nicest possible way to try and understand why Michelle has gotten herself so wound up. It is a internet board plain and simple.   I think everyone has to learn to take it on the chin and not get so wound up for their own sake.

I think people are well aware they shouldn't be swearing and don't need to be told off like naughty children which is just provocative IMO.

I am pleased for you to have you opinion also Annie and whether you think my post is provocative or not to me is immaterial. :-)  As a member I am well within my right to point out bad language on the board. All it leads to is threads being locked.  It is one of the reason I do enjoy this board, good debates but without the bad language.

I stand by what I said Blue but there's obviously no point in discussing it further so let's agree to disagree. :)

fwiw, i think they have nice "ice cream mouths" as my pony club instructor used t say & although over flexing at the poll, i cannot see anything other than a double bridle

Which bits are NOT showing distress???

Rolling eyes, ears flat back (not 'back listening to rider' but 'back unhappy and very uncomfortable and tense')...

That amount of saliva is Not Good, i wouldnt expect to see that much foam on a horse that had just finished a race or a xc.... never mind on a horse who is warming up!!!!!

It makes a mockery of what dressage is all abotu as far as i am concerned. These horses are supposed to be athletes who are trained to use their bodies in the best possible way.

None of the horribly, painfully, forcefully overbent horses there are using their bodies in the best possible way - they physically cant because they are tense and in pain.

Horses arent overbent to that degree IN the actual test, but its used to warm them up and once they give in and give that overbent chin on chest outline, they will give an 'on the bit nice round outline' allegedly much moer easily....

It is disgusting, its every bit as disgusting as the training methods used (mainly in the us) to produce 'rock hard' stances in In Hand arab showing (thatll be the startled, stiff, muscles flexed, on its toes thing if youve ever had the misfortune to see a h igh level arab show).....

Its every bit as disgusting as gingering, as soring  and as rapping.

One other thing - look at the bridles, all of them with what LOOK like 'nice comfy padding' on the 'crank' nosebands.....

I refuse point blank to make heavily padded cranks. Because 'padding' does not in fact = 'nice' At All! All that padding crushes the horses flesh against his jawbonse, his cheeks in against his teeth, as the 'crank' (which sadist invented those!), is forced up far far tighter than a cavesson noseband has any right to be (do any of those nosebands look like you could get 2 or 3 fingers between them and the horses nose??)

The end result there is..... one hrose with a two bits in his mouth.... the snaffle part is not the problem, the CURB is, and a horses avoidance of the curb is to attempt to open hsi mouth.

In a heavily padded crank, he CANT open his mouth, and thus a skinny little dressage rider can force a 17hh warmblood to put his chin on his chest and carry on moving.

Yuck.

Em

Truley excellent observations and comments, exceptionally well explained Theemx. I do think to see the full extreem of this, one has to have equestrian knowledge, and good grounding in tack, to view the full extent of what is happening in the pictures. Well said :)

Very well said Em, ceratinly put a lot better then my attempts!!! LOL Thanks, All the best, Dawn

Thanks for explaining that it wasn't clear from all the pictures what was going on.  It sounds horrible :( poor horses.

A totally unnatural stance from my point of view. In a lot of the photos you can see the whites of their eyes as they are trying to look forward in an unnatural position and normally the white of the eye is only seen in a horse if they are startled or afraid. Apart from the dreadful angle thier necks are forced into it can be doing no good at all to their eyes which must be under great strain. I hate to see such graceful animals treated in this way.

The horse definately looks in distress.  I can't see how the balance can be right either.  No, don't like it at all.

Well, I know very little about horses but they look sooo uncomfortable with their necks bent like that. The way that their mouths are frothing tells me that either that bit is being pulled too tight and driving them mad or else they are struggling breathing properly..........looks blooming cruel to me.

Hayley

Do you all think these people hate their horses?
are just too engrossed in their sport?
are sheep following a fashion?
have had bad instruction.

there must be alot of horses winning out there,like this or people wouldnt do it.

I suspect its about money. The very top european riders seem to use this method - but you won't see their faces as apparently they sue anyone who uses pics of them using this method. I suspect it gets a certain result after being warmed up this way - and thats why the trend has caught on. In which case I blame the FEI for allowing it, and the people for being sheep in following it, and the money that changes hands because of it. There is also much concern about inexperenced riders causing more damage by using the method incorrectly.

It is not something used in the UK. I prefer to see the likes of Pippa Funnel doing dressage personally - I think she is fantastic. This is just extreme.

yes right,sounds about right

however even years ago when i was in horses id see this sort of thing at our local shows,
we just called it crap schooling

Yes, I agree. You can get a nasty overbend with a horse evading the bit. I went to a local show yesterday and the standard was appalling. In one adult class not one horse went round the 2'3 course without refusing something... and one horse got smacked for refusing and smacked when he jumped it! And they wonder why they have such problem horses!

just read this thread, and looked at the pics,
all i can say is, that it just looks like,
CRUELTY

Donna

Do they hate their horses ?.
...I don't know, they aren't pets so I wonder if they have any emotional involvement. They just want to ride the best......whether they like the horse or not.

There is a very 'infamous' stated case of a Dutch trainer who brought in the TV camera's to his yard to show his 'Deep' training methods and dispell 'myths' the horse being worked suddenly collapsed and died...... (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
   The owners were also his sponsors, a very messy affair as I remember it.
these LDR/'deep' training methods are an anathema to the delightful duet of two willing parties working together in harmony that should be dressage :( :(
   Michelle, there was deep shame in the German Olympic teams denial of using this method,when photographers from Germanys largest horse mag snuck in and photographed them using this method and published them..the german team could no longer deny!!!!! If it wasnt so bad Mich, they wouldnt have moved heaven and earth in their denials! :(

i do think its bad, i dont like it,but i dont think the horses look distreessed,they (to me) just look like they are working really hard.

Yes, I remember that, Wasn't the horse worth about a qtr of a million quid aswell?!

I know someone who does dressage (national team) and believe me, his horses are loved! Whether or not this head action is cruel, I don't know. The horse can't see where it's going - but nor can obedience dogs who're tight to the handler's thigh, staring up at their face. (No offence intended!) I hope it's just a matter of developing trust that the horse will do this, and not brute force or pain.

As I said, the UK riders are not known to use this method.

There is a big difference in dog/horse comparison. Horses are flight animals - they rely on their sight to get them out of trouble. Incidentally, the lowering of the head is also seen as a submissive gesture by a horse to its herdmates... not natural for them at all.

Look into the horse's eyes.  If that's not obvious pain and distress with an obvious dulling of the eye then I don't know what is.  Those horses are in clear discomfort.  Obedience dogs have a happy uplifting expression in the eye, relaxed features and body. Well, the ones I know have.

My monitor must be pants because to me the eyes appear the same as the horses' loose in the paddock over the road. But I'm not a particularly horsy person.

My monitor myst be the same as yours then JG, probably the same horses inthe field across the road too.

I'm not horsey either.

But michelled wrote "i see horses been "made" to maintain an unnatural outline for the sake of a sport."

So its OK now to make animals hold an unatural line, be it uncomfortable and potentially damaging for the horse, it is OK as long as its for sport.

Rather throws out one or two other decisons recently, hare coursing and foxhunting, they must be OK, they were after all sports.

no i dont think it is ok, but thats why they are doing it.

but the same as you i dont see any fear in those horses eyes,ive looked & looked & i just dont see it. & i am(well used to be) horsey

Seems particularly unkind top me.

Well not having ridden or been around horses for years and years, I wouldn't know what I was looking at but......does the poor creature want to wear his chin on his chest! I dont think so, it looks cruel to me.

Jg and Robert.........you must have damn good eye sight if you can see the horse across the paddock as well as the one on the screen in front of you :D

Very sad Carla.

Michelle,
I think you may have missed the point, its not about 'working a horse hard'
(I hear what your saying I used to point to point, and rode at Broom,Brugh and Holker Horse trials..badly I might add ;))

The point really is that this training method is Biomechanically flawed (fact) and causes serious health implications (fact)

We ride the horse with the nose at the vertical,or just infront..they ride with the nose behind the vertical...this raises the back into a shortened cramped state. They are trying to disengage the neck and worse grossly bend to the side during medium gaits and rapid direction changes.

When the back is raised in Rolkur its a permanent state!!! (hellooooo??)
The muscle group here should be working rythmically intermittent NOT at a constant!!!!!! with the ab muscles always on!! (this amongst other things will cause acid build up)

basic physics of the downward force and upward force at work here is compromised with Rolkur!!!!! Abs,back,pelvis and hindleg muscles need to work freely without constraint to be able to alternately support the moving load on the trunk of the horse.

Hope that makes it a bit clearer as to why this method is just plain wrong! :(

I agree with whats already been said, very unatural, very cruel and the horses to me DO look like they are in distress, very uncomfortable! And possibly in some sort of pain? Horses wernt ment to hold their head this way, so why should they be made to?! It doesnt look nice at all! They cant possibly see where their going either!

Im glad though that ive read this is being banned!

All i can say is, people that do this/train horses to do this can NOT be horse lovers! :(

Very sad :(

yes i know, but havent people "always" done this, ive seen horses heads stuck to their cheasts on draw reins for YEARS in this country.

pelhams misuded. strong "driving" bits on kiddies ponies,
heads strapped down with martigales for jumping.
short standing martingales on drop nosebands.

its all nasty ,its all distasteful,but i dont see much difference in what these are doing,except they are successful.

Horsemanship has evolved dramatically in recent years, this seems to be a step back.

ive looked & looked & looked at those pictures & i dont like it, but they still dont look distressed to me. thats just my opinion.

Michelle, Horses for life (online) magazine have a really good article this month on this topic,but especially watch the videos in the article!!! I think thats a much better way than 'static' photographs to gauge how you think/percieve the horse is reacting/working.
http://www.horsesforlife.com

The FEI workshop at the begining of this year renamed 'Rolkur' to "hyperflexation of the neck' (doesnt that say it all!!??? lol @ them. :rolleyes:)

Sick people :(

Looks to me as if they are trying to make the horse look spirited and difficult to manage :rolleyes: pulling the head right back and driving forward with the legs and posture :rolleyes:  it's so cruel to be doing this to such a beautiful creature and totally unnecessary :(   It definately looks like some form of physical and mental torture to me :( :(

There is no way this looks comfortable for the horse or presents an elegant picture for dressage :(  wouldn't this cause cervical/ligament trouble if used regularly?

For anyone in doubt about how the horse is feeling, try to remember the last time you felt physically trapped and beset by very strongly conflicting emotions (wanting to fight and run at the same time)  and if you've never felt like that, then you're really lucky.

i just wonder how & why its been allowed to develop into such a fad

I don't know much about horses but I think that it makes the horses look ugly :( although there are lots of pictures it doesn't actually say whats going on so from a non-horsey point of view its all a bit of a mystery.  Could you explain to me?

:)

Clair

i think really id like to see a vidoe link of it,before i could def say if i thought they were in distress or not. anyone got one?

see above Dill's post :D

I still don't understand whats going on, are they just holding the reins really tightly so the head is forced down? or is there some kind of special headgear they need? do they do this only to warm up? or do they do it for the whole of the competition?

Clair

Its been many a long year since Iv shown ponies, but if I had ridden like that I would have had a flick of the whip on my backside! far to overbent, and would have been marked down on it in the ring, never mind outside with my trainer!  So harsh on the horse, whilst they 'mouth' the bit this is simply cruel and the horse is obviously in distress. How can it possibly have a forward movement with its head held down by hands and bit? The dressage horses I watched in the past were never like this, so why has this happened? I always thought dressage was the horse and rider in perfect sync, moving as one, gentle hands and legs encouraging the movements, never any force for one movement to another, certainly never having a head 'tied down'.

I have seen and ridden many horses and ponies in different bits, and doubles, and the bits are only ever as severe as the hands that are using them, be that dressage or polo, hunting or hacking. With riders of this calabre and standard they should not ride the horse into this position. And, to my mind, they should know better. Disgusting. Whatever are our young riders to learn from this.

they are learning that horses that are warmed up like this will win!

there MUST be people placing horses like this

there are... and therein lies the problem

OK, let me try to use some pics to demonstrate (this will appear uner your post calmstorm but its not directly for you if you get what I mean :)

This is Pippa Funnel riding:
http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/2005_event/photos/fri/source/primmore_s_pride.html

See how the horses head is on a vertical line and look at how the horse is moving - he's moving freely and look out how he is able to stretch out... he is moving beautifully and really working well for her (IMhumbleO)

Now look at this:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/367_6715.jpg

The problem is a picture can say a 1000 words and it can also say what you want it to!  I know nothing about horses but isn't it similar to an obedience dog haveing it's head and neck up looking at the handlers face?  isn't that unnatural?  But at the same time those dog are normally enjoying themselves for pleaseing the owner.

Like I say I know nothing about horses but to me thats just what it seems like......

Rox,
sorry but everyone seems to be missing the point.... its about putting an animal into a position that it cannot  physically self maintain naturally. Its unnatural :(
   A 'cheat' in my book, an unnatural method of training to provide cervical flexion used on horses that the trainer *thinks* is dominant or lacks concentration.
   To 'ok' this training method is comparable to if we all ok-ed the old archaic 'punishment' training of dogs :(

we 'reward' train our dogs..... see the benefits
Like wise with horses..there are better ways to train.

How do we know these horses arn't reward trainned?

Remember I know NOTHING about horses!!!!!!!!!!!!!