:D :D I'd love to have a go! (Especially for 100 K ROFL!!!!) Seriously though, my first two Goldens were NOT reliable at recall, it is a lot harder when you lose that first window of opportunity as tiny pups. I also find it's a lot easier when you have more than one dog as going off to see others won't matter quite as much then. Keep at it, you WILL get there. :)

Lori  It won't help but might make you feel better if I tell you my 12 month Golden is much the same. :)  As for his recalls, he is now back on a long lead until he changes his ways!! :D  Amazing how he comes back every time then :p

Mine too Annie ns. On the long line he follows me around, doesn't really try to run off. He learns everything in about two goes so he just knows, I'm on the long line, I have to behave. murmuring under breath, take it off, TAKE IT OFF, can't you see the dog you stupid woman!

:D :D  Think they're a bit like prisoners trying to get parole - they put on the 'I'm a good guy' act so you'll take them off the long lead again and then they're off!

He learns everything in about two goes so he just knows, I'm on the long line, I have to behave.

Get another (in case it doesn't work!), and very gradually over some time cut it off little by little until all that's left is a couple of inches. :)

Thanks Marianne, I'll try that. It's 50 foot so we'll be working on this one for a few weeks. ;-)

I failed the silver test with my Dobe because the examiner said he pulled too much on the roadwalk. I always use a headcollar on him normally, but we were told by the examiner that we were definitely not to use a headcollar, or any other restraint like a harness, during the test. Fair enough, through training you *should* be able to get the dog to not pull beyond an acceptable level. We would have passed were it not for the pulling, so the fact that other people have been allowed to use headcollars and passed takes the pee a bit!! I mean, if everyone isn't working to the same rules what's the point.

In training you can use treats and whatever you like.

In the tests aim for the top. THe whole idea of the tests is to give us the incentive to train our dogs to be 'good citizens'... not just when the envirinment is right and we have trears and training tools...but when things all go pearshaped!

So we want our dogs to be able to walk well without treats, to come without treats.To walk well and ignore dogs no matter what the dohgs are like. To keep atay even if another dog near then gets up and their owner comes in and bellows at them ( as we had on our test as well as other dogs howling barking in relaxed issolation...and they did fail for that )

Basically if you take the test and used treats you would feel bad because any dog will walk ar obey commands  for treats and you wpuld fell like  a cheat .    It's great your trainer is insisting on standards. So you do need to train the dog with treat to get the behaviour you want but then trai to do this without them too so you will be okay for the test.  When you can do this you are ready to take the Silver.  Good luck.

On the halti I would say trainers should use conmmon sense. If the dog is big and strong and you feel you need a halti just in case then common sense says use a halti. After all no matter how good our dog is at walkng to heel off lead near traffic we still use a lead...just in case..it is common sense not to take unessesary risks.  If you are the type of person to want to take unnessesary risks with yout dog you should actually fail the tests because part of the test covers responsible ownership.

After all if the dog pulls you will not pass anyway so you can not 'cheat' by using a halti.  If I were you I would put the halter on for the test but point out you always will not be using it for correction.    I think people can put  half-checks on the dogs which is still a training tool so why shoud the halti be treated any differently.

I always used a standard collar myself for the test because I like the test to be an ultimate target that I am aiming for and my aim has been to walk my dogs on normal collars on a loose lead. With a big strong dog I especially believe in use of voice for control rather then use of pysical force because physically many dogs have the advantage oner us... our advantage is our intelligence and use of training skills.   This is especially important when kids are working and training dogs.

The tests are all carried out differently. My silver took three hours because all levels took place on the same night and I kept getting pulled out to be a distraction for the other classes and the room was full of dogs we did loads and loads of heel free all together 1m spaces from each other and I'm sure we did way way more then we did when I took my silver with my previous dog at another club.  By thge third hour I was ready to drop!  However demanding though in Bronze one dog passed when it clearly should have failed... for the stay they kept trying and tied it up in the end and waited for it to fall asleep before timing the stay which is a total joke and that undermined the whole point of the award!  I realy was not impressed as that dog is dreadful and the owner is clueless.  If we are going to take the time to tran our dogs those who run the tests should respect our hard work and only pass those who attain the right standard.   BUt all said and done the awards are great for encouraging us to train for the basics...I just whish they would do one or two higher levels.

So because thestandards to these tests are so loose and variable you need to decide what you want from the tests... just a certificate with a lapse tester or a certificate and a decently high standard of achievment and go for whatever target is meaninful to you. IMO  your trainer sounds good to want the high  standards.

Regarding the halti - the problem I have with using one in a test is that it's not just an alternative method of "holding" a dog - many dogs actually will not pull into a halti. 

As described on the halti packaging, the halti has a subduing effect on most dogs - closing the dog's mouth physically is the same action that many dams will do to their puppies if they get too bolshy - it has a calming/subduing effect.  As such it actually alters the dog's behaviour, it's not just another "neutral" way of holding a dog, as, for example, a harness often is. 

But when the dog is walking on a loose lead with a halti, the dog's mouth isn't being held shut, is it?

For my dogs (and I'd imagine for many others) just putting the halti on is enough to trigger this change in behaviour.  The dog anticipates its mouth being closed as soon as it feels the head collar going on. 

My dogs hate all headcollars, and get very submissive when they are even got out of the cupboard.  Long before their mouths are being held shut you can see they affect their behaviour.

   You really could argue that just putting a lead and collar on a dog changes it's behaviour... a lot of what is acceptable is very much down to tradition. It all depends on what you want from the tests.  I'd want to show I could handle my dog without any tools at any level..but especially for Gold and Silver....but none of the clubs I trained at permitted the use of choke chains or head halters or harnesses for the tests... just flat collars or half-checks anyway so I couldn't have used treats or halti even if I wanted to.    So really I have the same opinon as you do and fully grasp what you are saying.

However....  I think  on the whole with the good citizen test is not about any kind of tight obedience but  it is about promotoing well behaved pet dogs and within that is the need for using commom sense with what is best for individuals and their dogs and many people like to use the halti now for walking their dogs.



Anyway... to get off technicalities a big no for me about the head halters for me is simply I think dogs look far more beautiful without them. 

I agree - isn't the test is about having a well-behaved dog under normal circumstances? It's not like a working test, gundog or sheepdog trial. It's about day-to-day life. So if an owner would use a headcollar under normal circumstances, surely it makes sense to allow them to do the same in the test. A dog which can pass a test in a familiar hall can be a completely different animal when being walked in a field of sheep, as many are on holiday.

Can you walk him on two leads?  One connected to halti/dogmatic and other attached to collar, keeping the halti one loose and the collar one for control.  Therefor if he does see a cat you still have control by the second lead but do most the work by the lead on the collar! :)

Good luck

Just a question please - regarding the Halti and the Dogmatic - is there any difference between the two such as one being better in any way than the other ?

Hi Trisha,  I've had a problem recently with Dogmatic (told me to get a certain size and when I subsequently had problems, they said it was the wrong size and wouldn't change it as it had been used :() but generally most people on here seem to be fans of it.  Certainly seems to fit securely on the face.  Some people I believe have had problems with the Halti riding up into the eyes.  If you do a search on here for either brand names or head collars in general, I'm sure you'll find lots of different opinions. :)

Thanks Annie - I thought I'd seen something recently, and remember it was your post about the supplier.
Our dog is a 13wk standard poodle - quite a big one. I thought I may have trouble getting the right size, so perhaps I'll try a Halti - I read size 2-3 for our breed, so as a fairly large puppy think perhaps a size 2 may be right, as surely a size 1 would be too small.
Her nose is already fairly long, so hopefully it won't bother her eyes :-)

I think the thing with headcollars is to be certain you've got the right size before using them (and using them includes cutting any labels etc off!).  If you go to a good pet shop, you will probably find they are prepared to change them if unused, some will even suggest you bring the dog in so they can be fitted in the shop.  Did you do the search I suggested as there are many different headcollars available?  Some may suit your dog better than others.  I use a Gentle Leader which I think is quite good - my dog hates it of course! :)

"I use a Gentle Leader which I think is quite good - my dog hates it of course! "

:) :) right! (can't do a laughing smilie!)

I'll do the search on headcollars in a little while, thanks - got this loopy dog and 24hr post-op husband to cope with, so can't get to sit still for more than a few minutes until I get both settled down! :)

Haven't driven with her on my own yet and she gets car sick (trying to gently condition her to it) - but Pets A H said I could change the car harness if it hadn't fit, so I'll get one when I decide which make and hope I get it right first time.
Thanks so much for the help.

You've got your hands full Trisha :).  The laughing smile is : D  or : p (without the spaces after the hyphen).  Hope you get on well with the headcollar.  We're a bit off topic here so if you would like any more advice, please PM me or you could start another thread. :)

Edited to say I don't think PAH do Gentle Leaders, in fact they might only do Haltis.

There are different types of head  halters that might be more comfortable and look nicer.. you see them for sale at shows.... at agility several people use one that looks nicer and more comfortble then the gentle leader and it can't slip off the dogs head. At agility shows loads of dogs use different head halter makes that you don'e see in shops... but I don't know anything about them.

I was permitted to use a headcollar for the roadawalk on both silver and gold kc awards with delilah, and so were all the other dogs. Each exam had different examiners. Check with the Kennel Club