I have been attending training and Mason has just passed his bronze KC.  (I have had quite alot of posts on here before about Mason, and I must say he has improved.)  Anyway now we are onto the Silver.  Mason is a 6 stone dobermann and I always walk him with a halti or dogmatic.  He does walk pretty well, but if he sees a cat or something then he will pull, I put the dogmatic on him and then I have total control of him.  (By the way he is 2yrs and 3 months old but because of previous problems we only attended training school for a while when he was younger.)  Anyway the point is now for his silver he has to walk on a lead (around busy roads) without wearing halti or dogmatic, also no food allowed.  Last night was his first night and he done the road walk and he was okay, to start with I can use food but it has to be stopped by the time he takes his test.  I am going to try and walk him alot more without the dogmatic on, but any help greatly appreciated.

What about having Dogmatic on but using lead to his collar as much as possible.

I sympathise as if I walk along roads I have to use a headcollar purely for the cat reason, they appear out of nowhere and dog goes beserk, I didnt know you couldnt use them on KC, dont think i'll be doing that then:rolleyes:

Yes you can use a headcollar for a KC good citizen test, meg wore hers for both the silver and gold roadwalk. As long as they show that the headcollar is not the only thing keeping them walking nicely (which should be no problem if you use it because of the possibility of chasing cats etc) they are allowed to wear one.

I have been told no to his halti, and to be honest he walks very with it on with a loose lead.  I had my first training class on Tuesday and that was the first thing that they said to me.  We did a road walk without it, and he is fine, but I need it in case as cat appears and I don't see it first.

im pretty sure you can use a headcollar for all good citz

I'm sure that you can't use a headcollar, and I've not been allowed to on any of my tests - including the bronze ones which are run by the KC themselves at champ shows, where I've been asked to take a headcollar off for the test. 

When my young Leo took his Gold i was taking his head collar off when the person telling us what to do said you can leave it on if you want.  So i used it for the street walk only, but he didn't pull on it anyway.  I did take it off for the rest of he test as he would rub his head if left on.  I also gave him treats once any exercise was finished and we sat down or stood to one side as he was only 12 months at the time.  He passed and we were really pleased. 

I am an approved KC GC Examiner.  In the guidelines that we are given it says that it is up to the examiner whether or not a dog may wear a head halter during the test.

I  never allow anyone taking any of the tests to wear one.  It is my personal view that if you cannot achieve the correct level of control without a halti then the dog needs more training and you should not  be taking the test.

If others can train their dogs, of whatever size, breed or temperament, to reach this standard of training I see no reason to make exceptions.  Otherwise it undermines the credibility of the test, the examiner and devalues the input that other owners have put in.

I see far too many of these certificates practically given away, with second attempts allowed in exercises.

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail!

I see far too many of these certificates practically given away, with second attempts allowed in exercises.

Too true. :( I've seen dogs given THREE attempts at the stay, fail on all three and STILL pass! :rolleyes: I've seen  dogs in the "stop at distance" stop one foot in front of the owner and still pass........ I've seen one dog run away from its owner for the Bronze recall, OUT of the building, having to be caught by the owner which took 10 minutes, and still pass........

I wish something could be done, because as it is now all some organisers care about is a 100% pass rate and it makes a mockery out of the whole thing. I even know of some that will never ask back an examiner that correctly DID fail some dogs. I think there are too many people accepted as examiners that don't really know enough (i.e. some breed judges and dog wardens for instance, they may have plenty of dog experience but not have a clue about the GC) and they ought to have been tested in some way themselves, or organising clubs ought to be checked up on every year. Yet at the same time it can be so hard finding somebody to act as an examiner that to cut down on the numbers would be a problem. Wish I had an answer as it is really annoying me; what's the point in training everything and passing it correctly if others pass it when they shouldn't? Makes it all worthless.

I have noticed a great variation in examiners' understanding of the exercises and the conditions under which they should be carried out.

The two dogs I have entered have gone right through to gold and were not entered until they were at a standard where it was very likely they would complete the exercises properly (as I understood them) and at the first go.  However, as an example of the differing conditions under which the tests are carried out: one examiner went and got her own bolshy dog for mine to walk past.  The bitch I was working at the time just looked the other way but it might have been too close for one of my other dogs not to panic - a dog that had already passed her gold award in with a class of dogs that she was happy to be around.  Luck?  Judgement?  Did absolutely everyone else on here who has a gold award have to walk within a few yards of a bolshy dog or did you do your gold award in with other gold award standard dogs?

I have had to bite my tongue when people were allowed second goes at stays or passed for appalling heelwork but I still feel that there needs to be an element of encouragement and involvement to the whole thing. Whlst you don't want to de-value the award by giving it away, some people are having to work really hard to prepare rescue dogs for these tests (I know of one dog that had been starved in its previous life and was never going to be perfect around food but did well enough to satisfy the examiner on the day) and that's something I feel the whole test system hasn't really taken into account - perhaps there should be a 'greatly improved citizens award scheme?'

Did absolutely everyone else on here who has a gold award have to walk within a few yards of a bolshy dog or did you do your gold award in with other gold award standard dogs?

Well in my cases (I've done Gold with 5 of mine) there were never any other dogs available, so not much choice -but you've certaly got a point there. I remember when I did the road walk with one an ambulance came screaming past so my dog got a bigger distraction than the others, but then that is real life of course. :)

I have had to bite my tongue when people were allowed second goes at stays or passed for appalling heelwork

May just be your wording, but don't forget it is never meant to be heelwork for any of the GC tests, the dog just has to be walking nicely at your side under control.

Whlst you don't want to de-value the award by giving it away, some people are having to work really hard to prepare rescue dogs for these tests

That's true, but with most it CAN be done, and I don't think the encougement should go above the bronze if this is the case -the bronze beng the one that ALL dogs should be able to pass.

flynn can only do HW or pull.....id be stuck!!!!!

I think you may find that one or two of us have had somewhat challenging rescue dogs ourselves ;)

As Goldmali says, it is about basic control, that quite frankly I would expect ANY dog to manage a Bronze IF correctly prepared.

A friend of mine went on a course a couple of years ago, can't remember who it was under, but each person on the course was given a rescue dog from a shelter to train, the dogs had no previous training as far as it was known, and they were given 24 hours to train the dog to pass the bronze. (Well they had one day to train, then the test the next day.) They all managed to do it. :)

I did a course like that but we took a week ('little an often' with lectures too). What a heartbreaking experience. I think my dog is still at the rescue a year later :-( I had a new puppy and he was entirely too unpredictable and rough to adopt. Poor guy. I think all 13 dogs passed (thought something about 3 failing is haunting me) - and earned their passes. No one was just let through.

>don't forget it is never meant to be heelwork for any of the GC tests, the dog just has to be walking nicely at your side under control.

Thank you for pointing that out, Marianne. I know several people who don't go in for the GC tests because of the misunderstanding that they might have to have a dog doing 'competitive type' heelwork and obedience, and they simply don't want that.

have to say that this is mainly a misunderstanding i've been labouring under! hence i've got an entirely award-free dog!

Yes, sorry if I confused anyone there, I did mean walking nicely on lead.  I don't do competitive obedience any more so that is what heelwork now means for me.

I agree totally with you.  I work with my dog loads, but this thing with the cats is a real problem, as one person said they just appear from nowhere.  He has often seen it before me.  He hates cats, he has been driven mad by them on my garden fence or sitting on my shed and he just doesn't like them I really don't know how I am going to overcome this.  Any help greatly received.

Sorry, dgibbo, I can't see any easy way of de-sensitising him to cats, when he is presumably repeating the chasing behaviour every time he spots a cat in the garden.   You're looking at never letting him see a cat without you being there to prevent any chasing and try to introduce another more desirable behaviour - quite a tall order.  I had a cat chasing problem with my terrier when she was 6 months old but I got her over it because I knew where the feral cats would be, could put her on the lead in advance and clicker train her to turn away from them when we saw one.  Obviously she's now most reliable with cats at that particular farm!  But it has generalised to elsewhere thankfully, though she'd still like to pursue.

This goes exactly to what I was saying though.  Why should this person, who has put a lot of work into this dog be prevented from going any further than bronze (and after all, the more interesting stuff comes in silver and gold) just because the dog has one problem area?  Or should she just go without the Halti and sing hymns to keep the cats away on the day because there is absolutely no chance of using the Halti? (Not a serious suggestion, before anyone jumps on me.)

No one is "prevented" from taking a silver or gold by anything other than lack of training.

If you want something, then train for it.

I have dogs with a very high prey drive, so do plenty of others, just train the dogs to cope with cats, the same way as others do for cars, joggers, dogs, or anything else that their individual dog does not like.

If I had a £1 for every time I heard "yebbut" as an excuse for poor or inadequate training I would be a millionaire!

I know this sounds harsh, sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you; if gaining a particular qualification is vitally important you would put the work in, if it is not, you will not.

As for haltis preventing pulling or changing behaviour I can say that this is not necessarily so.

Plenty of dogs pull into their head halters like trains! :rolleyes:

If you want it, train for it.

I do agree with you, Tohme, that if you want an award enough you have to put in whatever work it takes.  That's true in all walks of life.

However, I also think that taking Kennel Club Good Citizens Awards is vitally important to pretty much no-one!  I always saw it as a bit of fun.

I would prefer a different outlook, one which finds a way of rewarding effort as well as perfection.  Dgibbos dog will be a "good enough citizen" because she is aware that he needs more training, will make the effort and until she finds the key to success, will control her dog by the use of a headcollar.

Perhaps it also depends on how examiners  "fail" people: presumably this can be done in a helpful, constructive way or in a negative way.

However, I also think that taking Kennel Club Good Citizens Awards is vitally important to pretty much no-one!  I always saw it as a bit of fun.

I would prefer a different outlook, one which finds a way of rewarding effort as well as perfection.  Dgibbos dog will be a "good enough citizen" because she is aware that he needs more training,

The GC tests are designed for PET dogs to be able to do things that are important to enabling having a pet that is a pleasure to live with. The bronze is what ALL dogs should be able to do regardless of breed and purpose in life, the silver and gold go a bit further, but it is after all ALL stuff that is important.

Take the stop at a distance (gold) -vital if your dog suddnely runs off and is about to cross a trafficked road, or jump on a small child, or get attackedby another dog.

Getting in and out of a car (silver), to make sure the dog doesn't jump out and into the road and gets run over, and behaves during car journeys as well as being restrained appropriately for the driver's safety.

  The roadwalks (silver and gold), again for the safety of both the dog, the owner and other people, as you are next to an actual road.

Walking loosely at the side of the handler withou a lead on (gold), to ensure you can have your dog under control quickly should it be needed, as it often is during a walk off lead.

Accepting beng examined both by the owner (bronze) and a stranger (silver and gold) is vital to enable to dog to be cared for properly and going to the vet and/or groomer.

Coming when called (Bronze) and away from distractions (silver) needless to say is very important.

Not pulling on the lead (all) is both a practical thing (making it a pleasure to walk the dog) and a safety aspect -many dogs are big and strong enough to pull an adult  over should they so wish -I know several of my dogs most certainly could if they ever wanted to.

Even the walking through the door or gate in bronze has a practical use, whether you subscribe to the old theory that people should pass through first or not -it's simply EASIER if you go through first rather than the dog dragging you through a door.

Very few of the exercises are of little value for the average pet dog. Sending the dog to bed might be one of them although that has its use too, but it's not as vital as some.

I'd say "Good enough citizen" simply equals Bronze.

Also none of the GC exercises are never marked down as a fail, it's always marked as "Not ready" and yes advice is and should be given. :)

>Even the walking through the door or gate in bronze has a practical use, whether you subscribe to the old theory that people should pass through first or not -it's simply EASIER if you go through first rather than the dog dragging you through a door.

Unless you want to shut the door behind you, when it's much easier to have your dog/s in front of you rather than have to lean back over them! I also prefer not to be pushed! ;)

Yes good point JG. :) I still find it hard to get to grips with English front doors after all this time .I don't get why they open INWARDS -in Sweden they open outwards making it  a lot easier to get out. :D

I'm sure there is much to be admired about the Swedish style but I am not sure outward opening doors are one of them :)  My friend, indeed my bridesmaid :), lived in a wooden chalet type house in our village in the far North of Scotland with an outward opening door.  On a fairly average windy day there it would take our combined efforts to close the darn thing when she opened in to let me in! :D

Our last house had a front door that opened outwards. When you answered the door you nearly knocked the caller down the steps!

I thought it was a legal issue in that a front door on a house has to open inwards so that in the event of a fire it cannot be blocked by something put outside the door.

That would make sense, Harley. It also makes it infinitely easier for rescuers to break in during an emergency.

Still in agreement Goldmali.  I didn't say it wasn't vitally important that your dog does these things - stop at a distance, absolutely vital.  It just isn't vitally important to have a certificate that says your dog will do so.

What a fascinating thread.

I don't know anything about this scheme but from reading Goldmali's description I realise my two would hit Gold and Silver in most areas but wouldn't pass bronze in others. I suppose this pattern comes from having two rescues and shaping their training to the environment we inhabit - with two outstanding failures: Zac's attitude to traffic which remains problematic and has to be 'managed' and Miss Thing's attitude to cats. 

Still, food for thought as ever.

 

I never thought that Zymi rescue would be able to do Bronze due to his feelings about being groomed  We took it a few weeks ago and passed and also got silver the same night. Bet I'm the first person to be worried most about the grooming bit :D

Hoping to try Gold in the autumn

Muttsinbrum, I think you have probably put your finger on something there.

In the KC Good Citizen tests there are the "exercises" - such as stop at a distance, go to bed, walk alongside owner etc. which a dog might well be able to do under the test circumstances.

Underlying that, is the expectation that the dogs being tested are "good citizens" that won't react badly to anything that happens in life (other dogs, livestock, traffic, being left alone.)  You cannot exhaustively test for this and therefore, as Jeangenie has so rightly spotted, if your dog's problem doesn't present itself on the day, you might well get away with it.

Just wondering tohme since you'll know, would you pass or fail a dog in this scenario:
During road walking your dog sees a cat and starts looking very interested. He pulls a bit in that direction but you correct him and get his attention back. Then you walk on under control.

I haven't seen the guidelines but I wondered if dogs would pass as long as you showed you could control it even when there was a distraction. Thankfully mine wouldn't know what to do with a cat and his reactions vary between apathy and some head turning, just using this as an example. (though I had a rocking horse dog with a wagging tail today as the cat was about 2 feet away from him and he was teased by one yesterday so maybe I speak too soon :-D)

It does say in the instructions that "occasionally tight leads are acceptable"....

Lori, of course I would say the dog was "ready".  No one I know in the entire universe has never NOT had a tight lead in their life for various reasons. :rolleyes:

What I am looking for is a dog and handler that can walk along a pavement in an everyday situation without lunging, continuous pulling, barking, pulling  back, jumping etc etc in other words basic good manners.

It is easy to say "my dog would have got his Bronze/Silver/Gold, Working Trial, obedience, agility, schutzhund qualification IF........."

That is the whole point, nothing that is worthwhile getting is a piece of cake.........

I think that the KCGCS is great as a CONFIRMATION that your dog IS a good citizen, it should not, IMHO, be seen as an end in itself..............

Thanks tohme, that's what I thought. I hope you didn't think I was criticizing your judging in any way. I just wondered how strict the guidelines were. I also thought if I was right, it might help to point out to people who have dogs that react to cats, traffic etc., that the reaction in itself wouldn't cause a fail. Only failing to regain control would.

I treat the KCGCDS as a little something extra to work for. It gives a goal during his class training. It certainly doesn't define all the training my dog is given. He could probably pass the gold on test day but I wouldn't rate him as a gold citizen yet when out in the real world. It's still fun to work towards and if he blew it on the day then I would want to fail. We would just work more and take the test again. Like you said it wouldn't have any value if they were just handed out. My adolescent takes his silver in two weeks and I'll be darn proud of him if he passes. :-D

To be honest its not about the silver or gold, I know you have to train, but its more about me having a well behaved dog.  I have had quite a few issues with him since he was about 15 months which I have worked with to try and alter (I have put plenty of posts on here).
I had a dobermann years ago and he was totally different to this boy.  My other one never wore a halti, wasn't bothered by cats at all, wasn't bothered by joggers, motor bikes or people appearing in the woods. 
This one wasn't bothered before he was about 15 months old, I always had him off lead when in the park and woods, but I can honestly say he changed.  I have had a behaviourist out to see him, (the chap from the television, Robert in Doggy Boot Camp), that was quite a few months ago now.

Just a thought, but unless all dogs are tested against all sorts of distractions during the test, especially at the higher levels, it seems unfair. Dogs that live with cats are more likely to be used to them and not react - but how would those dogs respond if a rabbit or squirrel or sheep ran past them?

Just a thought, but unless all dogs are tested against all sorts of distractions during the test, especially at the higher levels, it seems unfair. Dogs that live with cats are more likely to be used to them and not react - but how would those dogs respond if a rabbit or squirrel or sheep ran past them?

Good point but practically impossible of course. :) You'd have to have different distractions for each and every dog and it could be hundreds. :D At least the tests go a bit in the right direction and encourage people to have well behaved dogs. :)

When I lived in Sweden they introduced a scheme (don't know if it still exists) similar to the GC, (before the GC existed here) this was in the early 80's.  They did go a bit further with distractions there, for instance the dog had to walk past people throwing balls to each other, but again one dog may be totally ball mad and find that aspect really hard whilst another might not be bothered at all.

Dgibbo out of interest, are cats likely to appear at the place where you do your KCGC? Only if you find out where you may need to go, you may find there are very likely to be no cats there (for instance with road walking, we did some of ours in a small shopping area - no way would there be any cats there :) ).

Lindsay
x

I don't really know where we will walk, it could be the place where we practice our road walk (where there are alot of houses with gardens) or it could be at the other side of the church hall where there is a main road (less likely for there to be cats). 
Actually I was walking him yesterday and we were walking him along a busy road, the houses and drives are pretty large here, well I was talking to him as I normally do when we walk along, and he looked up at me and to the right was a cat, just laying on the front of someones drive, quite a long way away, but he spotted it, it just seems to be if there is a cat he will spot it.   

One day we were walking along and he was a bit fidgety as we were approaching a gate (sort of on his toes as though he had seen something which he couldn't have as there was a wall and big hedge), well there it was, a cat, it just appeared from behind this gate.

I will just have to continue and persevere with this, which I will do.  My only worry is that he weighs about 6 stone and I weigh about 9 stone (with a left leg that is very weak from two operations) and when I walk him with the halti I feel alot safer that I have total control of him.  To be honest if he were to pull me (without halti on, unless I was totally prepared that this was going to happen), and his lead slipped and say he run into a road after a cat and was run over I would feel as though I had caused this.

I have a friend who had a Staffordshire Bull Terrier (this was years ago when we had our other dobermann), he was so obedient he always walked him off lead (which I never would do), but anyway he did, and one day (I think the dog was about 4 years old at this time), the dog saw something on the other side of the road and he is now dead.

Sometimes on this champdogs people make you feel as though you are not good enough to own a dog (not you Lindsay) but anyway point is I do love my boy very much and I will do whatever needs to be done to make sure I have total control of him and look after him to the best of my ability.  I will do everything and anything that I need to do with him.

I hope I didn't make you feel that you are "not good enough to own a dog".  If I did, I apologise but I did not mean to.   Some of the posts on this thread make ME feel I'm not a good enough trainer to own a dog! :-)

Actually sometimes on this site I have felt like this, I try to do everything so right with my dog and I actually feel quite inadequate on here.  I wonder why he doesn't respond like other peoples dogs.  We have a very good relationship with each other, a very good bond and he actually never lets me out of his sight in the park, he is always very close to me.  It is very frustrating.  He is a very bright boy and seems to understand what I say.  As I have said my other dobermann was totally different - I will not give up with him, but as long as he is in my control I think that is all that matters but I will continue with training school.  To be honest, at classes they think he is an absolute dream.

>I will not give up with him, but as long as he is in my control I think that is all that matters but I will continue with training school. <

I think that's a very responsible attitude and to be commended.  You are definitely a good citizen!  :-)

Good luck with finding a way to get over this problem.

I actually feel quite inadequate on here.  I wonder why he doesn't respond like other peoples dogs.  We have a very good relationship with each other, a very good bond and he actually never lets me out of his sight in the park, he is always very close to me.  It is very frustrating.

Don't feel inadequate, honestly I am sure we have all felt like that at times :)

Having a good relationship with him is a truly great start, and not everyone achieves that, so be proud of that. Other problems, well, just try to find out as much as you can about the problem and how to tackle it and then kind of put your nose to the grindstone as it were :D Usually if you work through a problem with the right advice, you will see an improvement esp. after adolescence :)

The cat problem is difficult as some dogs just do dislike cats, it can be hard to work through unless you can control the cats which usually appear just at the wrong time! It may be helpful if you work him through commands such as "Watch me" and get him really into a toy. If you could get him obssessed with a toy that might even take over from the cats, you never know, and then you could keep the toy on you, hide it, so he never knows if you have it or not. It would all take time though and the start would be to ensure he loves this toy.

It's just a suggestion, it may not be right for your dog but if you think along these lines it may be helpful :)

Lindsay
x

Debbie, you have a dog that never lets you out of your sight! You make me feel inadequate! Mine would rather visit every dog in the park than anything else in the world. In fact I'll be wandering around the park with a soggy, nasty long line, feeling like an incompetent numpty in about an hour... I have a great idea. The CD challenge. For any CD'er who could stop my dog from being interested in visiting. I believe this task is impossible so will offer £100,000 or the communal Ribena to the first person to succeed :-D

I have a great idea. The CD challenge. For any CD'er who could stop my dog from being interested in visiting. I believe this task is impossible so will offer £100,000 or the communal Ribena to the first person to succeed :-D

LOL!! :D Your dog's a Golden, right? You can't make a Golden not be a Golden and that means (usually!) loving everything and everyone and WANTING to say hello, but you CAN train him to NOT go off if you tell him not to. :)

>You can't make a Golden not be a Golden and that means (usually!) loving everything and everyone and WANTING to say hello<

Too right! and I wouldn't want him any other way.

>but you CAN train him to NOT go off if you tell him not to. <

Yeah, I have my first volunteer for the challenge! Goldmali to the rescue :-D I'm trying so hard to do this He's 13 months old - when do I have a chance? I believe you said about 8 YO LOL

right, when will you be up then Marianne. It's not like you have anything going on like new puppies to look after. Or shall I bring him down to New Sweden to see how yours can do it? :)