Anger isn't an excuse for shooting off a gun. Not only is that sad bt it shouldn't have happened. It's like running over a sheep or horses that stray just because you see it on a road and think it's no right to be there.

Once there was a baby on the road and no one stopped or even slowed down! I guess they thought it's shouldn't be there! But that's no excuse for leaving the child in danger! I couldn't believe they acted like that. So I stopped and looked adter the baby until his mum turned up. He'd escaped from a housing estate.

When you drive you do it carefully...and you do not deliberately kill whatever you see in the road just cos it makes you angry! 

Hi Tenaj,

I'm sorry to hear about the horrible experience you had in the country with the farmers, and I am sure that anyone would find that an upsetting thing.
I don't think that all farmers are like that though ... as you will see I started this thread because I have recently moved to the country, and was worried about upsetting any sheep or farmers. I always keep floyd on a short lead around farms etc, but have recently found a trail and wood that it is safe for him to go off lead in - the locals do the same and have assured me it is safe.
Last night however, I got chatting to a farmer, an old man, who was very nice and said that the majority of farmers won't even mind if your dog is off lead as long as it stays strictly to heel. I am of course not advocating that anyone actually do this, as it is always better to be safe than sorry, and I can understand that sheep etc are a farmers living, and they do love animals, otherwise they wouldn't farm (farming pays nothing so you don't do it to get rich) The farmer said that they are always watching people with dogs on their land,but that if they can see the dog is under control they are ok with it being there, and will remember you and your dog for next time.
I am sure there are exceptions to this, farmers who have had previous bad experiences etc, or just plain horrible people, but that is the same with everything in life. I really do not think that the majority of farmers are waiting with a gun to shoot a dog , just because they can.
I do not mean to say that your experience was not really dreadful, and I can see why it upset you a lot, but I do think the whole issue is about a bit of give and take on both sides. If we are on farm land, we must respect that (which of course you did) and in return the farmer needs to respect our efforts to be responsible owners.
Take care, and I am sorry that you lost your dog so young.
xxx

>I'm sure a farmer who wanted to could call in the pup!

Why would an out of control pup enjoying chasing about in field, respond to the calls of a stranger.  Remember too, that a dog just chasing livestock without any intention to kill or savage can cause sheep to abort or die from stress.
As to the spaniels loose in a field, what is a farmer supposed to do, go away and come back 1/2 hour later just to see if they did go through to a livestock field?
I have lived and walked in the countryside all my life and have never been threatened or even felt threatened by farmers with guns but then I have always respected their property.

I don't believe you people think it's okay to kill some one elses dog. Dogs are like family. It is very sad people think it's okay.

This is madness.... I feel you are all just winding me up!

It is also very sad that so much of our land is controled and owned  by so few people who can not think that sometimes mistakes happen and mistakes do not deserve death.

Okay...I might be a minority to think like a typical city dweller that it's not okay to kill a dog...or to bully the public by saying you will shoot a dog even if it is on a lead.... but I will proudly stick to that opinion.

Frequently in the city parks people can not get their pups to come back and I get them to come back for me. But then I am not waving a gun around and shooting it at the pup! Matbe if I do that I will suddenly find I am no longer any good at getting pups back for people! Who knows!

Anyway...the  conclusion is simple... no matter what the law stated and even if the dog is on a lead!  simply do not mix with sheep and farmers  who have guns!   Especially if they are angry.

>mistakes happen and mistakes do not deserve death.

But, what are often sweet benign pets at home, cause death.

Why would you say that! My dog would kill?  What makes you say that! He;'s dead anyway you will be pkeased yo know!

Ive two dogs now and no one has the right to kill my dogs! Just let anyone try! Anyone ever trys to hurt my dogs! Well if they do I will just have to smile and say oh dear never mind it was just a city dog won't I cos that's how it swings!  It must be a bad dog because we live in the city and it is just a pet. Thank you for killing it for me before it killed me and your sheep and all the children and babies. Ever so grateful.

Sorry...you people obviously live on a different planet!

I love my dog. When he died part of me died. Now I know how it feels to loose a dog I can never suppoert killing peoples pets just cos they slip a lead or cos someone elses dog attacked the sheep or rumour has it that that happened. 

>He;'s dead anyway you will be pkeased yo know!

Thats an outrageous thing to say! No-one on here would want to see any dog dead - we just don't think its acceptable to have folks dogs running around on other folks land with livestock.
At the end of the day some people choose NOT to have dogs, so why should they put up up with those belonging to others running round on their land, where their livelihood is kept?

....yes but my dog was on a lead.  THis hatred of pet dogs goes further then pups playing. It is a deep disrespect based on a very small minority of dogs.  And it becomes a problem because all dogs are labled with the same brush...like racism or any other 'ism' it steriotypes blame onto all dogs and not the very very small minority who actually cause the problem.

Near here tht are talking about shooting a dog who has killed three lambs...but the fiels is next to a very heavely used public area and the wall between the public area and the field is broken down. Maybe there should be pressure placed on the council to fence in their area.... or the council charged with compensating for the loss.... I'm sure there will be some more modern solution that could be found to ensure safety of inocent dogs and especially pups and the sheep. There are other ways then shooting because you are not dealing with criminals but just normal families who want to see a little green space but do not always know how to do this corrctly... just like in my park their dogs are a problem and they just need educating responsibly.

>I'm sure there will be some more modern solution that could be found to ensure safety of inocent dogs and especially pups

Unfortunately the dogs which worry livestock and collectively cause £2 million of losses each year aren't innocent! :( They're guilty - which is why they sadly suffer the consequences.

This topic is just going round and round and getting nowhere :(

Yep...no way am I going to be persuaded ever that shooting poet dogs is okay...

... and no way will others be persuaded it is not.

We will have to all agree to differ with me. lol.... it is strange when one unexpectedly hits an unfashionable opinion.

But thanks for the conversation...it is unexpected and intersting to see the opinion on this is so extreem.

No they are not guilty...they are dogs. Prosecute their owners. They are guilty... even if through lack of education.  

Dog ownership has changed over the years...frequently dogs are instead of families and children and many people if asked shall I shoot the dog or will you take out a loan and even remortgage your house to pay for the damages they would choose to pay.  A dog to so many people is worth so much more then money.

This is not something I should have to explain to people on a dog forum. :rolleyes:

It's the dogs that are guilty of doing the damage - the owners are guilty of allowing them to do it. But the damage has to be stopped as soon as possible - meaning within minutes - not allowing even more animals to suffer simply to go for compensation.

In your own example of the burnt-out vehicles, the guilty ones are the ones that do it - not their parents!

>This is not something I should have to explain to people on a dog forum.

Agree wholeheartedly!

You didn't say when your encounter happened - I gather it was some years ago?

In your own example of the burnt-out vehicles, the guilty ones are the ones that do it - not their parents!
Yep...it is a BIG problem. Stealing farm equipment too, even tractors. No one ever gets caught.  I think this is common problem on many farms because there area is too large to make secure from criminals. Farms are seen as easy targets.

About two years ago. Thinking it through he probably looked a little untrained..he was one of those BC's who was totally controled off lead but pulled as soon as I put a lead on him so he probably pulled while I met the farmers... at agility I now see a lot of dogs like him. The young dogs I have now are not under that level of control at all.

I think you are very much seeing the shooting as a last resort... when nothing else works. On the farm near me they are thining about doing this but struggling hard to work out how they can make sure that if they have no other option that they only get to shoot the right dog. It is not something they want to do and I suspect they will find other options.   The point I was making was about cases when this is not the last result, or in my case where basically intimidation and fear were used to bully me out of using public rights of way for no reason caused by my own actions.  The anger in them  towards me was, to put it mildly, worrying.

I have a mobile phone now which is a good idea for future confidence and safety.  

Hi Tenaj - I can fully understand your shock, horror and fear as your personal experience sounds awful and completely inappropriate :)

I live in semi-suburbia where we're practically bordering fields and within rambling distance of not only horses and cows but Alpakas :D yet a ten minute car journey into the city centre.  Fortunately we have no sheep farmers nearby (maybe their scared of the Alpakas :D ) but most dog owners around me are very respectful of stock areas and I've thankfully never heard of local problems.  I can sympathise with farmers who DO have problems with dogs worrying their stock but as first and foremost a dog loving owner the thought of one being shot is definitely abhorrent to me  :)

regards, Teri

but as first and foremost a dog loving owner the thought of one being shot is definitely abhorrent to me
phew! I'm so glad someone else thinks like that too.

Thanks so much for that Teri . Really appreciated.

I will quit now while I feel I have my feet back on solid ground back in the normal world! lol!

It is abhorent to me, but the need for it understandable when dog owners are not responsible or do not realise what their dogs are, predators on private land worrying livestock which is the farmers livelihood and to the farmer his priorities are his livestock, not someone elses dog.

The farmer most likely to react by shooting is one that has been caused problems by shepp worrying dogs, and occasionally an innocent dog witll get shot.  Even more likely is that the farmer will never catch the dogs or owners concerned in the worrying.

So little surprise that a farmer may not view dog walkers as desireable near his stock, on lead or not, as he has no way of knowing that that dog straining on the leash won't be let off as soon as he is out of sight, so the doggy can play.

I would not choose to walk my dogs in the countryside, as they are an independent hunting breed and not the kind to stay in close contact all the time when off lead, adn it simply wouldn't be safe to do so for them.  Frankly the idea of having to walk dogs on lead over rough or muddy ground does not appeal, and if they need to be kept on lead I can find better plces to do that.

I think many of the public footpaths should not actually be open to dogs...and just as shops can ban dogs the farmers should really just stick up no dogs permitted notices if they really find dogs a problem...then everyone knows where they stand. Several of my family members own small bits of land for one thing or another and the recent right to roam movement has caused no end of trouble trying to make non suitable private pathways oficially open to the public.

Frankly the idea of having to walk dogs on lead over rough or muddy ground does not appeal, and if they need to be kept on lead I can find better plces to do that.
Frankly I myself would like nice, clean, landscaped, dog friendly, massive indoor areas to walk and play with and train  my dogs in with a nice cafe and selection of fresh cakes.

Frankly I myself would like nice clean landscaped dog friendly byt massive indoor areas to walk and play with and train  my dogs in with a nice cafe and selection of fresh cakes.

Ah, if only! :)  If you find it, let me know where it is please!

well...if someone will set one up I'm more then happy to pay whatever it costs to use it.

At one entrance/car park of the country park neares me one of the house owners ahs a garden and kiosk for people to get lovely cakes and refreshments most of the year.  Realy nice cakes, as well as hot and cold drinks and Ice cream.

Lovely to sit in the garden with the dogs after a long walk and stuff your face.  They do great Hot chocolate too. :D

>Thank you for killing it for me before it killed me and your sheep and all the children and babies. Ever so grateful.

:rolleyes: I think you are just being irrational now.  Of course nobody is pleased to hear you dog is dead.  We have all lost dogs and know how painful that is but it has nothing to do with this subject.
I'm afraid all dogs can kill.  Even those who would not dream of getting hold of an animal and using its teeth (and some pets could certainly surprise their owners!) as I have already said they can cause death and injury merely doing something they would consider play, like chasing.
I don't think there is much point in discussing this with you as you are obviously going to take a very personal and emotional angle but I would advise you to take heed of what people are telling you, read the links you have been given and there is no reason you cannot enjoy recreation in the countryside as the rest of us do.

Look,,,I just think why is it too painful for anyone here to say the farmers were WRONG and ILLEGAL and WAY OUT OF LINE to threaten to kill my dog WHO WAS HIGHLY TRAINED AND WAS ON A LEAD!!! ....and in front of my kids!

Why can't anyone admit that! Why all the excuses for the poor farmers!

That's what I expected people to say!

To me not to think that and say that is irrational. Totally irrational.

People just need to accept there are different opinions and to me my opinion is not irrational but is normal for the people I meet and know in the real world and your opinions be they the majority opinion on this board are actually reflecting very much a minority view.

This is not a reply to you as an individual...the way this board is designed is not eaasy to use when one persons conversation is being replied to from so many directions. I am genuinely taken in shock by the responses here...it was most unexpected...I would have kept quiet had I ever met people with your opinions.

>Frequently in the city parks people can not get their pups to come back and I get them to come back for me. But then I am not waving a gun around and shooting it at the pup!

You're missing the point. Dogs can and do kill livestock - they take away the farmer's means to pay his bills, feed his children. These aren't his pets. Livestock worrying by dogs causes about £2 million infinancial loss every year; don't think for a moment it's a petty little mishap.

Are you sure that you didn't meet a group of people on a rough shoot (these are official, by the way) who were warning you that it might not be safe walking around while they were about their business in case you or your dog got shot accidentally?

No they were farmers...they were nasty and very threatening and intimidating and full of hate. Obviously they are not representitive of most farmers and I have never claimed they are because I am mentining one specific instance I experienced.... but they exist all the same and as they have guns it is worth people being aware there is a risk to being in any field with livestock.

I now live in a city but was raised in the country and the vast majority of my relations are farmers - all have/do keep sheep.  However, in the 40 odd years I've lived (this includes walking dogs through the countryside) I've never seen or heard of a law abiding member of the public shot at by a Farmer for walking their on-lead under control dog along a public right of way.

The instance in which you've quoted re: the two children and their pet dog,  I certainly didn't see even the word "Farmer" mentioned in a number of news reports which I read.  Are you even sure that it happened in the countryside because it could have happened just as easily in an urban environment. 

The kids story I just have what mt hubby said and he was very upset...which is unusual for him. I've been trying hard to get the 'real' story but can't find it. I'd gathered the dog was running off in a field with livestock. When this happens the dog should be captured and the owner ( who in that case let the kids out ) sshuld be taken to court and prosecuted for damages...they should risk loosing money, even their house...but not the life of the dog. 

My uncle is a farmer and his problem is joy riders from local villiages  setting fire to stolen cars by his farm gates or by his barn. This causes much more damage then dogs.

But with his sheep he was told they must not even see a dog because if they get scared of dogs this is no good when they need to use a dog to bring the sheep in for 'harvest'. He has had local pet dogs scaring the sheep but also he has the endless battle against the rabbits eating the crops...it is one of many of the the costs and expenses he faces and as a dog lover not something he gets over bothered about. He's found good secure upto date state of the art fencing helps a lot against  the rabbits and also any dogs. But has had no joy against the car thiefs and other thefts from the farm which is where he faces his biggest unnessesary loss...so from deliberate crime and deliberate youth damage.  

So anyway.... as well as fear of having our dog shot we keep away from sheep and cattle. Even the city cattle near my home...we are free to walk through those fields... but why do so when you don't need to. There are plenty of places with no livestock.

Anyway... obviously I am wasting my breath but I do think if people had met the farmers I met they wouldn't have been so in support of them.

I'm surprised that farmers in your area have obviously had so much trouble that they have to get together - for safety? In most areas there aren't enough hours in the day for casual socialising; it has to be organised. To see a single farmer on the land is a rarity, but a group is almost unheard of!

When did this happen, by the way?

now you've lost me...whhich farmers  have I said meeting to socialise? Or for safety?

I know farmers who show dogs each weekend so some of the do  have free time.  My uncle is a farmer and he has his Rotary club and so on.  They do live lives as well as farm. But also You see him out fixing fences and working on the farm and so in and so an out there grafting on the farm all the time because he is a farmer. He never stops. Works hard plays hard!

You suggested in your first post that you came across a group of armed farmers whilst you were walking in the countryside. As I said, a group of farmers (as opposed to labourers) together is a very unusual event, because they're usually far too busy to stop working and get together - unless they've organised a rough shoot, or there's a crisis. They would only be in a group during the day for a reason - it wouldn't be a chance meeting for a chat!

Ican't get that post back up...I met two farmers. I did not ask for their ID... I smiled and said 'HI'  and and politely asked their advice on where best to walk my dog because of all the sheep and then got the unexpected hostlle response and threat and so on. 

I did nothing wrong and I really feel like I am under trial here on this thread....like you want proof or something.....  I can't see why there see the need to defend these guys.  

You said "I had my dog on lead and walked along a public footpath with him on lead and there were some farmers there". Sorry if I misunderstood and there were only two people.

Of course you're not on trial - but it's obviously very hard to understand a situation without all the facts. :) How long ago did this happen?

Can I say I really appreachiate people not taking the huff and being prepared to talk this through with me...even seeing me upset and I admit respond unfairly at times. It is really appreaciated. I had not realised I was even still upset and intimidated by them even now.  Basically when I think it through they were just bullies. Maybe if my hubby had been with me they would have acted differently... in fact I'm quite sure they would have. I shoud have got it looked into but I checked up somewhere and it had seemed they were suprisingly within their rights.

:) {{{{hug}}}} I'm so pleased you realise that you're not being ganged up on! :) These situations are never clear-cut, are they, and living in either a village or a city everyone naturally views things from another perspective - and that's nobody's fault!

Perhaps, living in a city, you can help. :) What would be a good way (apart from publishing the 'Dog in the Countryside' leaflet mentioned in this thread) to help non-rural people learn the rules? That even 'National Parks' are full of working farms and aren't a playground? That a farmer values his livestock and wants to protect it just as a pet-owner values their dog? That a farmer won't stand by and allow his stock to be injured by a dog, despite any legal processes that he may be able to take after the event, any more than a parent will stand back and allow their child to be injured by a dog, even though the DDA is very powerful; by then it's too late and the damage is done. :(

We do our best to educate.  Most people I am friends with share in the different voluntary youth work. Here in youth clubs like Guides Brownies scouts and so on we teach children the country code as well as all the city issues, pet care and so on. However the kind of people who tend to need this type of education do not tend to send their children to these kind of clubs... Also at dog training there are the good citizen courses and again it is too frequently those who do not need these courses who attend them.  Apparantly too many dogs are sadly not lucky enough even to get taken out for a short walk let alone fortunate enough to be taken out for a day in the countryside.

I was told on one trip to the country that even on a lead the farmers would see him as worrying sheep and culd shoot him if we stepped foot into a field with sheep

Well where do I start,first who told you this ? A sheep/cattle farmer ? Also unless there is a right of way across the field you would committing trepass & you can now be prosecuted for trepass now. Also why would you want to walk your dog in a field with sheep in it especially if it had not been trained to ignore the sheep

I'd have liked to challenge the farmers at that point to to see who'se dog is best trained by them walking a three year old dog and me  walking my three year old BC off lead through farmer fields without bothering the sheep...and then through the city streets on lead to see who behaves best and then free off lead in a park with kids playing, balls, picnics, free running dogs and so on

Why would a working sheep dog not be well behaved & why should it be aggressive towards people & other dogs which IMHO is implied in your posting

City dogs do have to be well trained and well socialised and I think in the country farmers do not appreciate that we city folks do train our dogs to a high standard and no way should they have the right to shoot our dogs or even say they will because our dogs are as valuable as their working dogs!

How long each day do you spend training your dog, half an hour an hour two hours three hours  ? Take a shepherds time at say £10 an hour his fully trained dog might have taken a year to fully train & even at only an hour a day that comnes to in excess of £3,000. It actually on average takes well in excess of an hour a day every day. This is why fully trained sheepdog sell for thousands of £s, even a dog showing interest & with only very basic training  cost hundred's of £. Value to a pet owner & value to a shepherd or gamekeeper etc are totally different. A dog to a shepherd is like a tractor to an arable farmer, they are tools of the trade Albeit living ones (& most shepherds are good to their dogs BTW if only to ensure they are fit to do their job)

I saw the devastation left behind three "city pet"dogs(two labs & an airedale terrier) in a flock of three hundred sheep. over 40 dead & dying ewes & over 50 aborted/still born lambs & all the dogs had done was go for a run a field of pregnant sheep whilst their owners walked a little way from them. The incident was witnessed & the dogs weren't shot as the damage was done & the dogs & owners returned to their "city" home before the witness could get to them all the post lady could get was the registration number of the 4x4 they were driven away in. Farmers do not randomly shoot dogs, they have to prove to the CPS that it was the only way to stop the dogs killing the stock or causing the stock to die. Sheep don't even have to be physically bitten to die the stress of being chased can be enough. One reason that sheepdogs have to be very well trained to lay off sheep BTW. I saw the shepherd in tears cradling a dying ewe, he had spent all his life developing his flock to have three pet dogs destroy almost a fifth of it in minutes

Without going into great detail and to give a little perspective FOR Tenaj....I live in the country, totally surrounded by sheep and lambs, right up to my own garden fence....the dogs can see through this fence and if nose to nose could actually touch the sheep (no sheep has yet tried this)....but IF my dog had a barking frenzy (from within these confines) at the sheep, from her own garden and that worried said sheep, then the farmer would be perfectly entitled to shoot!!!!  ie: barking dog = out of control, in that situation

Its not the lead that controls the dog in this situation, it is the owner.....

Hi Floyds Mum,

Buchan park/leechpool woods must be reasonably close for you?  Although probably by car.

These are pretty nice rambles - leechpool is a wee bit muddy though!  And welcome dogs too.

Good luck finding somewhere,

Thanks Rachel,
Do you walk there? If so I shall keep an eye out for a herd of setters! (Beautiful piccies btw)

Hi,

Sometimes we head up there but early to avoid the crowds and usually weekends to be honest as I have some nice walks near me (without sheep luckily!!!) and I do like heading out to the seaside (Goring and Witterings are really nice!)  But easily recognisable as you said with my herd of setters!

Glad you liked the pics!

i have no idea where Rusper is in the UK sorry, but re lambing season, it depends very much on the breeds & the area. eg in south devon/cornwall we see lambs at Christmas & lambing can be november to March, whereas on the moors it tends to start after hunting finishes which tends to be April onwards. .....and yes sheep will "charge" & my BIL had his leg broken after being charged a few years ago!  As for walking a dog on a lead throught sheep, well if it were my sheep i would definitely not want you to do this. Even though dog is on a lead, sheep can panic & pile up against a hedge, suffocating themselves....yes it sounds silly but unfortunately i have seen it happen a number of times inc. after the army flew too low over our farm once

not trying to cause an arguement, but then why do sheep get put in fields with public footpaths running through if they are at risk of injuring themselves like this

I believe Emz (could be wrong) that public footpaths don't actually give the automatic right for people to take dogs across them, even on leads and I think by the sound of it that it is the dogs rather than the people using the footpath which are likely to panic the sheep into injuring themselves.

ok thanks Annie ns I've never really looked into it, as I never use fields with public footpaths, we are lucky enough to have other areas and a private ( well military owned) woodland on our estate to walk the dogs in. ( before you all think that I am trespassing, OH is in the RAF :-) )

Hi,

We live in the country, and I am a "Farmers Wife" LOL!! and I can say my OH would only ever shoot a dog in sheer desperation, as would many other local farming folk. On MANY occasions have phoned the police to deal with a troublesome dog or find the owner. There are strict Laws and Gun Laws in place. Shooting a dog is a last resort.

Respect works both ways ;-)

We too love and adore our dogs and treasure them to much to risk having them shot. Always remembering to use the country code helps

Remember that fields are a place of work, they're not a recreational facility. Sheep need to graze, therefore they get put in fields where there's grazing. If there's a footpath through the field it's the responsibility of the walker not to cause any disruption when they use it.

The use of public footpaths doesn't come without responsibilities and in this neck of the woods they run through managed farmland. Farmers' need to be able to use their land since they are running businesses, not scenic walking routes and it is up to people walking on that land to take account of this. There is also a new description of "access land" which means the public can use land that was previously private but has been redesignated to allow access. However, they do have to be aware that it is principally farmland and take account of whether livestock are on that land and the clear notices about keeping dogs either on leads or, in all cases, under control.

Also on the newly-designated 'Access land' dogs must be on a short lead between March 1st and July 31st - they're not allowed to run loose.

I'm surrounded by sheep - in East Sussex rather than West where you are - and I wouldn't trust the dog with them for one single moment despite having no evidence for this. What you'll find is that the sheep regularly get moved around and you just need to keep an eye out for whichever fields they're in. Right now, for example, we've got some enclosed in the field at the bottom of Firle Park so I only walk Nips in the upper part of the Park where they can't be seen. But if you live in sheep country you get used to modifying your walks to take account of this sheep movement. On top of the Downs you'll find very good stock fencing because it's not in the farmers' interest to have them roaming for miles so I'd recommend getting up to the South Downs Way.

if you live in sheep country you get used to modifying your walks to take account of this sheep movement
Yep - that is so true! We are in the Dales and I have become an expert on knowing where the sheep are on any given day ... Have often wished it was possible to log in to some kind of service on the internet with a daily map of the area with sheep symbols in the appropriate fields ... The landscape is so hilly here that you can't always see when you enter a field if there are sheep at the other side of it. Sometimes it all seems so difficult I wonder whether it would be easier to move to a city (especially with the new 'access' restrictions - it's becoming a real problem finding anywhere to exercise my dog offlead.)