Having lived in towns all my life, we have just moved from Horsham to Rusper (HuskyGal, I see from an old post you are from there - small world) and I wonder if anyone can offer some advice please ...
Living in town, I could let Floyd off his lead in loads of places - fields and parks etc, and play with his ball, practice training etc and he really loved that.
On moving to country, this doesn't really seem possible, as there are sheep everywhere! Obviously, I am very keen to be a responsible dog owner, and don't want to upset any farmers (or get floyd shot) so have been keeping him on a short leash at all times. He is also on a harness, to have more control over him... but there just doesn't seem to be anywhere safe to let him off.
As he is a BC I am particularly concerned about the sheep! All of the public footpaths seem to run through fields full of sheep, and even the football pitch where I thought I might let him off is next to a field of sheep :rolleyes: We spoke to his breeder who lives near and she said it was ok to walk him through the fields (on the footpaths) when there are ewes in lamb ... but I don't feel totally comfortable with it, and am not sure a farmer would really like it either? The sheep don't seem too impressed either (have to confess that when a rather moody looking one came and stampped her foot at me the other day, I turned around and headed in the direction I had come in - coward! - would a sheep "charge" you? ... and what should you do if it does??!!)
I grew up working on my uncles smallholding, so I am not a total townie, and am aware of the country code etc .. but I just wondered when does lambing season end? Do all the sheep disappear from the fields then? Will I ever be able to let Floyd off lead living in the country? We have a garden so we play ball with him there, I just feel he is missing out somehow ... am I being silly?
Sorry for rambling post, any advice greatly appreciated, and try not to laugh at this town-dweller

When we lived in Horsham we used to take the dogs to St Leonards Forest for a good run, because there were so few places (apart from Denne Hill) in the town itself. You're quite right to keep Floyd on a lead near livestock - but walking on footpaths through fields of sheep, even with lambs, is fine with your dog on a lead. The sheep will no doubt be in the fields all year round, not just in the lambing season, so don't imagine that for most of the year they'll be empty.

Do you have your own transport? I'm sure if you get a good OS map you'll find plenty of places to let him off. :)

Edit: I found this: I can't remember the name of the wood to the west of Rusper, but it should be safe to let him off there. :)

Thanks JG.
My OH drives, but I do not, so we can go out when we are together, but if I am on my own I'm going to have to take him fairly close to home.
Thanks for the link, I will get an OS as you say and have a look, and find out how to get to the woods.
Poor old floyd, he really loved denne hill and running off lead, and paddling in the stream by the church

It looks as though the footpath (Sussex Border Path, I think) through the wood is opposite the hotel (can't remember it's name, but we spent the first night of our honeymoon there!). :)

Thanks JG .. was it Ghyll Manor hotel? Shall go an inspect the area for a footpath later!

Yes, that's the hotel. Jolly nice it was too! :)

>The sheep will no doubt be in the fields all year round, not just in the lambing season, so don't imagine that for most of the year they'll be empty.

its strange, the sheep round here disappear once they have had their lambs and are replaced with beef cattle - ive always wondered where the sheep go

That's grazing management - cattle eat longer grass than sheep do, so rotating them keeps the grazing healthy.

However I wouldn't walk my dog, even on a lead, through fields with cattle. Cattle attacks on dogs are common, and sadly their owners are sometimes injured or even killed.

They have cattle on the common I walk the boys on over at Greenham near Newbury.  The cattle must be used to dogs because on occasions my boys have gone hurtling round a bush face to face with a dozing cow and the cows dont do anything, the dogs have a sniff and walk away I must admit though I have heard some awful stories about people being trampled to death by cows and it does get quite scary when they all start coming over to you, ive never got over a stile so quick

Living in town, I could let Floyd off his lead in loads of places - fields and parks etc, and play with his ball, practice training etc and he really loved that.
...that's why I prefer to live in the city.... the city is safewr dor the dogs... no one trying to shhot them! And also we have more envirinments which offwr freedom for us and our dogs.

I was trying to find how many dogs get shot by farmers each year....anyone know. There seems a nasty hostility in the counry against city dogs..when I had my last dog I was told on one trip to the country that even on a lead the farmers would see him as worrying sheep and culd shoot him if we stepped foot into a field with sheep.   I actually think in behaviour  my dog was better trained then farm dogs... I'd have liked to challenge the farmers at that point to to see who'se dog is best trained by them walking a three year old dog and me  walking my three year old BC  off lead through farmer fields without bothering the sheep...and then through the city streets on lead to see who behaves best and then free off lead in a park with kids playing, balls, picnics, free running dogs and so on. Then see which dog is okay with strangers comming and petting it and kids pulling it's fur and then traveing on a bus and train and not barking when peope walk past the house and put the dog in the front garden and see how safe it is for strangers to come into the garden and so on and se if their dog has what it takes to be a respectable city dog.

City dogs do have to be well trained and well socialised and I think in the country farmers do not appreciate that we city folks do train our dogs to a high standard and no way should they have the right to shoot our dogs or even say they will because our dogs are as valuable as their working dogs!   I was very very upset that withot any provokation or knowledge about my dog the country folk were talking of shooting him like he was nothing! It is sick to talk like that! Anyway....I know had we been able to set it up he would have won the contest. Because my dog died before he was 4 it makes me extra mad they wanted to shoot him.

OKay..... Rant over! :D

Farmers have a right to protect their livelihood, just as city-dwellers do. In villages, towns and cities people lock their homes, factories and shops at night - farmers don't have that option. :) Mind you, I wouldn't fancy strolling around some factory yards when the guards are on duty! ;)

Well..I think farmers should be under the same laws as everyone else and shouldn't threaten people with guns.   If they have a genuine problem they should have to solve it through the same processes everyone else has to go through in a civilised country.

To me to threaten to shoot my dog is the same as wanting to shoot me or my kids. We are in 2006 not 1806! So it should be regarded as a crime for a farmer to use the fear of their shotgun against the public.

>If they have a genuine problem they should have to solve it through the same processes everyone else has to go through in a civilised country.

Hmmm - so you think it would be sensible for them to trap foxes and rabbits (remember, only 6 rabbits eat the same amount of feed as a sheep) and prosecute them? Dogs are predators - livestock is prey. Potential killers on the loose need instant control.

What have foxes and rabbits got to do with threatening members of the public with guns?

I have the right to walk in any public pathway in this  country without being shot or having any of my family members or pets or property shot and destroyed....or even the fear of this!   It is a sick mentality to think it is okay to shoot at people with pet dogs or at the pet dogs themselves. 

Like I say my dog was not only livestock trained but on a lead for goodness sake!  Hardly a  predator!  He was even rabbit safe, budgie safe guinea pig safe!  lol! Not at all  deadly in any shape or form! 



Anyone found the recent story about the kids whos young pet dog was shot right in front of their eyes?  I don't have the facts but at  guess the pup was not trained and   the kids shouldn't have been out with the dog alone... sometines people don't know how to behave correctly....  but in the city we get kids ourt with dogs alone... and they can be a nuisance but we don't get guns to shoot their dogs!  Kids do wordse then taking dogs for walks !  But still no one can legally shoot at them!

How can kids recover from that! It is sick. I wonder how much this goes on...hopefully not much.... but it realy shouldn't happen at all.

>I have the right to walk in any public pathway in this  country without being shot or having any of my family members or pets or property shot and destroyed....or even the fear of this!

No, you have the right to use public rights of way within the law. And that means that your dog must be under control. The countryside is a factory and predators are vandals. It's the predators that are likely to get shot, not the people supposedly in control of them.

And there's far more gun crime in the cities than in the country.

Edit: Nobody has rights without responsibilities not to abuse them. It's attitudes like that that do the most to foster a town/country divide, and make me glad I'm not a) a townie or b) a farmer.

I think you are being argumentative and provokative for the heck of it!

At what point in what I have desribed  was my now departed but much loved friend and companion and soul mate not under correct control?

With hours of training in the city and in the country I couldn'y have done more to make him country safe...as well as that he was always on the lead on public country footpaths!  What more vcould I do! But the farmers still wanted to shoot him! 

You are just trying to cause trouble!

End of conversation!

>when I had my last dog I was told on one trip to the country that even on a lead the farmers would see him as worrying sheep and culd shoot him if we stepped foot into a field with sheep.

Who told you that?

Thatis what my posts have been about! 

The farmers! In countryside near Ripon.....  I had my dog on lead and walked along a public footpath with him on lead and there were some farmers there so I said a friendly hi to them and asked them which were the best paths to take my dog to walk on.

So I drove home to Leeds and walked him in my local park!

When I looked it up they were right...they have the right to shoot a dog on lead....just being in the same field as sheep can be interpreted as worrying sheep. But that should be wrong.

THe should not have the right to shoot anyway...but should ask you to leave or call the police...just like if someone came in my garden ( even though it is not even a public rigt of way ) with their dog that's all I am by law permitted to do. 

Very odd to come across a group of farmers! There must have been an unusual occurrence to get them out in force. :)

As you know, the law says that dogs must be under control near livestock - on a lead is fine, and stay on public footpaths. Many people think that includes the whole of a field which has a footpath in it, whereas in fact it's only a strip about 8 feet wide. Many sheep, especially if they've been chased in the past, are terrified of any dogs, and the fear alone can cause their death or that of their lambs. During lambing season probably the best paths are in Leeds. :)

If your livelihood depended on your livestock, and you were far enough from the road, you would have the same rights to shoot trespassing dogs as any other farmer.

Hi Tenaj,
put your mind at rest,and have a quiet read throught the facts.
<a class='url' href='http://www.countrysideaccess.gov.uk'>http://www.countrysideaccess.gov.uk</a>
They also do a really good leaflet called "you and your dog in the Countryside' you can order it off the website link Ive given its produced in associaton with the Kennel Club,English Nature and various others.
HTH :D

edited to say: please read the link its not heavy going, its a great site they have Wallace&Gromits Ardman Animations!
   Also sorry Just noticed this thread!!

I think that is just a 'code'kind of manners. By law they can shoot the dog on a lead and I think it is legally  okay...  and of course once the dog is shot what can you do.  I think it is an outdated gap in the law. Tighter control is really needed. My luck being as it is I'd not want to take any risks. I nstick to tourist areas where there is a better relationship between city and country because these days the tourism provides more wealth then farming!

>By law they can shoot the dog on a lead and I think it is legally  okay... 

No they can't - unless the dog is worrying livestock. Please read this link.

"The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of 'livestock' includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included."

The above is the current law.

Do the farmers know that then?

Is there information on how many dogs get shot by farmers
each year...?

BBC 32Feb :  "There have already been a number of serious sheep worrying cases this year, resulting in dogs being shot." 

Here is an extract from a news report this month.
"The farmer told police he shot the dogs because they were "worrying his neighbour's sheep" and had no choice but to shoot them....."I heard the shots and ran to see what the commotion was about after hearing raised voices and animals whining.
"I saw the farmer shoot one of the dogs.
"I just burst into tears and became a quivering wreck.
"I turned away and heard two more shots."
...If there were sheep in the field, we would say yes we were in the wrong, but there were no sheep in the field.
"The law states a farmer may shoot a dog if it is actively engaged in worrying livestock, if the dog is dangerously out of control and if ownership of the dogs cannot be sought - to shoot a dog must be the last resort.
"The farmer knows whose dogs they were and where they lived. He knows they are trained dogs as he as in the past witnessed me training them in the field."



Also.... anyone know the full story behind the kids and the Dalmation puppy who was shot?  Rhat stort really upset my hubby but I never read it myself.  He is not so dog mad as me and not one for kids..... but he was really angry that this was done to the kids.  I'd guess all I can think is  the pup  was running loopy in lambing season?  Even so I still can't feel it was okay to shoot it...a good farmer handles animals amd dogs and must surely be able to call in and tie up a playful pup.

I don't think it wise to test this out with the lives of our dogs. It is worrying.

>Do the farmers know that then?

You can bet your bottom dollar they know all the laws that affect them.

>and must surely be able to call in and tie up a playful pup.

If the owners can't? Yes it's sad, but it's our responsibility, as dog owners, to ensure that our dogs don't cause damage or go where they shouldn't. If we can't accept that responsibility we shouldn't have dogs.

If the owners can't?
these were two little kids!  I'm sure a farmer who wanted to could call in the pup! lol! if they wanted to! 

sorry but I don't have the full story though.

There are good farmers and bad farmers..and the law being too loose does not even help the decent farmeres.  Farmers who are supposed to be caring for animals should not even want to kill a kids pet dog! Or the Spaniels who escaped from their home.  We've had cows escape the local farms and come wandering into our playing fields where childrren are playing and even our  gardens! Yep...even cities have cows!  So Sometimes it happens. The animals get out.  You just call the farmer to  get them back where they belong.

>There are good farmers and bad farmers..

Just as there are good dog owners and bad dog owners; good townies and bad townies. Unfortunately bad experiences are always the ones you remember longest. Once you've lost livestock (including dogs) the damage has been done. It's best to avoid such situations even arising.

Edit: Remember, very few farmers routinely go around with guns. There's always a reason why they have them, especially during broad daylight when they won't be rabbit culling. That reason could very easily be a recent attack.

Why do kids wearing hoodies get banned from shopping centres? Because a high proportion cause trouble. Why do farmers mistrust pet dogs? For exactly the same reason.

Yep...unfortunately there is no way of knowing which farms are safe...or which farmers have had a bad day or had bad pet owners bothering them so you walk in their fileld with a dog on the lead and you and your dog could pay the price by your dogs death.   It's just not worth the risk. 

It is an area of law which could do with some tightening up on.

If you and your dog are on a public right of way, your dog is on a short lead (not an extending one) and walking quietly, ignoring livestock, and the livestock aren't bothered by its presence, then your dog is perfectly safe. You will not be shot. You may well be given verbal advice to keep it that way, but that's fair enough! :)

I hope so! It needs to be safe and the countryside needs to be shared safely.... or the freedom to use shotguns will be tightened up on and thgat wouold hit farmers badly. 

Funny in all my years in the city no ones ever threatened to shoot us nore have I ever heard a gun shot!  I've been shot at as a kid on one trip to the country when we were sitting on a fence,  and on the first time to an unfamiliure country location with my first  dog we got a threat that he will be shot!  The city is more expensive to live in but it sounds much much  safer! As well as having more places to walk freely!

I've lived in the country for years. We have a public footpah through our land and we have sheep in all the fields around us. I have never seen a farmer with a shotgun, never mind actually shoot a dog. BUT, if a dog was off a lead in a field with lambs and out of control then the owners are the ones responsible for what happens to that dog - and not the farmer.
Dogs should be kept on leads if walked on other peoples property - its common courtesy and for the best all round :)

Yes...on leads...but like I say my dog was on a lead... what shocked me most was the pure hatered these farmes showed towards me for no reason. I was just saying hello and being considerate by asking which paths they prefered me to use.... I thought they were supposed to like to be friendly in the country! lol! 

You meet grumpy hate filled people in all places but not ones with guns...it's a bad and dangerous mix.

A blunt unfriendly warning made you remember it and effectively made you aware that your dog needed to be properly controlled. Maybe they had just got fed up of asking politely only to be ignored on previous occassions. Harsh? maybe but they can't tell a responsible dog owner from an idiot can they? It would be easier for us all if we could.

Yes I remember because I just spent £30 in their local farm shop supporting their countryside! Never again!

I think killing is so normal in the country they don't realise how bad killing is to city folk. I think as my dog was on the lead and as I'd closed gates picked up dog poo and asked them for advice on which was the best place for me to walk with their being so many sheep around wasd a big clue as to how responsible I was.

There's no excuse for some people.And there s no way people like that are safe to be trusted with guns.

I can't remember all they said but I was so shocked and upset I got in my car with my kids and was shaking and crying and I couldn't drive for a while.  I've never been back to places like that.

And I  can't understand why on a dog board people are all okay with that. I'm going to have to have a break from here cos I'm shocked it's okay by 'dog loving' folk here to threaten to shoot a well trained well behaved dog who is on a lead. 

Guns are no more commonly toted around in the country than they are in any other place if the were carrying guns there was a reason for it.
I think killing is so normal in the country they don't realise how bad killing is to city folk.
sweeping generalisation and a big misconception

if someone in the city threatened to shoot my dog and in front of my kids then the police would be called in! 

I guess if ever anyone says that again I have a phone and can just call the police even in the countryside. 

It is not normal to say you will do that. Nor is it acceptable... until I bring this topic up today!  I can't beieve it is normal practice on here!

This has got to be a wind up! lol! 

There is no way this is not a wind up! 

You people are playing and just  winding me up! YOu can't be for real! 

Yep if you were threatened in terms you think unlawful you could.

yep..I should have.

excuse me but I have no intention of winding you up and I better leave it there......

sorry.. I am not meaning to be rude just so many people have come and swamped me with this it's okay in the country to shoot dogs! Sorry...just getting upset. :(

.....it really really really upset me to think of someone killing my dog... and now he died young I even more feel that. So I can't see how it can possibly be right to want to do that.  He was a great dog. I can't see why it is okay to shoot someones much loved dog. Can't get my head round that at all. :(

peoples dogs come and stray in our garden and I'd never wish the dogs any harm. Foxes ate our rabbits and I never wished the fox any harm. It just did what a fox does. A dog attacked me once too ...took three big bites and I never wished the dog harm but just to be better retrained. Dogs are special to people...like family. Other folks  can't just kill them cos they slip a lead or cos some have less then great owners.   :(

Nobody has said it is ok in the country to go around killing dogs on a whim and all the farmers I know would see it as a tragic very very last resort. After all where does he get the money to feed and clothe his own family if his livestok has been killed by someones halmless pet "playing" with the sheep.

>I think killing is so normal in the country they don't realise how bad killing is to city folk.

That could be part of the problem. :) People in towns are now so divorced from the realities of life that it comes as a genuine shock to them to realise that death is a normal and essential part of the the cycle of life.

The point that dog ownership has changed and many people regard their pet dogs as child-substitutes is also true; sadly it also means that they forget that they're animals, with a whole different set of instincts, and this unhealthy attitude causes great conflict.

People in towns are now so divorced from the realities of life that it comes as a genuine shock to them to realise that death is a normal and essential part of the the cycle of life...etc...
yes... the trauma can totally destroy people. It is an unhealthy change...but it is here all the same and needs to be understood.  I know a kid who is on medication after their dog died last winter.

Meat comes in plastic wraps... it is made in factories and probably grows on trees in eco friendly forrests.

My dad was raised on a farm and if they wanted roast chicken they just went and killed one from the farm but most people if they were asked to do that they would eat the veg and keep the chicken as a pet.

Many people I know are vegitarean to save the animals lives... without realising that if we suddenly all stopped eating meat the farm animals would have to die out anyway one way or another.  I can't see them being kept as pets.

I used to breed and show rabbits and used to eat the surplus.

To me it sounds very strange when people talk of getting a Rabbit Spayed or Castrated as to me they are the same as a chicken a food animal and much as I liked the ones I showed and viewed as pets considered their monetary worth (that of their carcass, or as breeding stock) when considering the financial implications of unnecesary veterinary attention.

Bunnies were wll looked after fed and kept clean, and any that ailed were bumped on the head.

I was taught by those of an earlier generation that part of good husbandry was culling, and that if you couldn't face that aspect you shouldn't be in Rabbits.

Farmers already have to attend courses regularly to keep a shotgun.

Farmers already have to attend courses regularly to keep a shotgun

er, no we do not!

The ones I know must choose to then as i know they have been  on more than one.

I think you don't get the difference between 'telling off' 'banning' prison' and going through courts and fines and so on..... and that of  killing!

You can not liken to telling kids off for not taking down their hood in a public area and killing dogs.  Those spaniels were not even in a fiels that contained livestock!

Also before you mentioned city guns .... largely drug gangs shootings are reported on on the news so sound bad...but the UK has one of the lowest gun crime records and gun crimes are crimes!  It is actually illegal to have a gun!  These are Criminal actions! 

...dog shooting are not widely reported on so we are mistaken to think they do not happen... and when they do they are not seen as 'crime'. 

Why do kids wearing hoodies get banned from shopping centres? Because a high proportion cause trouble.
that's a misconception!  Just about all sweatshirts come with a hood! Most of mine have hoods..infact I'm wearing one right now. and I've never even had apeeding fine.   My kids wear hoods too. It is just that with a hood you can not be identified on camera and that is why you must not wear them in shops... not because you are troublesome.

Exactly JG, as happened with the sad case of a Juvenile male in oru breed being shot as he had deviated off the public footpath itno the fireld folowign on the scent of a fox that ahd been feedign on th carcase of a sheep that had been worried the night before by dogs. 

The farmer saw the dog and shot him, and the owner was just out of sight.

The dog had run towards the farmer to say hello, but understandably angry the farmer didn't realise this until too late.

It isn't worth the risk as after all people are only human and can act unreasonably if provoked.