The Council forks out for it I think.

cardboard coffin, dragged in on a trailer out the back of a skoda, quick Amen and thrown in the skip :D

I didn't know you were religious! :D

:D

Purple velvet coffin for me, black friesian horses with plumes, stick me in the ground and get drunk on my savings :D

Yes they will if they have no assests at all.  But of course you don't have to have insurance, you can hold several thousand pounds worth of savings before your benefits are affected so you could just save up sufficient to cover it if it's a bother to you. 

You'll need several thousand pounds these days for a funeral :( Arranged FILs for Friday - for hearse, one car, basic coffin, cremation and cheap casket for ashes (no internment - we are arranging that later) £1700. I can't imagine what it costs for a horse drawn hearse etc etc :(

Daisy

£1700 is not thousands I think Hubby will manage that :)  It's ChloeH that wants the horse drawn etc, I'm settling for the Skoda, Amen etc.

I might just join you, Isabel :D :D

Daisy

I've heard of double weddings but double funerals may be a little tricky to arrange :D

You've turned me down then :( :(

Daisy

:D Not at all Daisy, I'll let you know when I am planning on going :)

Thanks :D :D Does your OH fancy pairing up with my OH ..........................

Daisy

I see what you are planning ;) A pair of wealthy widows travelling the world eh! :D
;)

Oooh - I hadn't even considered that :D :D

Daisy

Me and mum were discussing this, She wants to be buried in a cardboard box under a tree!!!!!!!!!! which i actually agree with it!!
And out of interest, if you are not christened can you have a church service??????
Another strange thing but I dont think it would feel right not having a church service, but all our family are either agnostic or atheists and most are not christened, and i have been told you cannot have a church service unless you are christned, anyone heard of that??
Lea :)

I don't think you can be buried in consecrated grounds but you may be able to have a service although I can't think why you would want one if you are agnostic and certainly not if you are an atheist.
For further reference see the getting married in church thread ;)

I dont know, maybe it is that i have never been to a service that is not religous!!!
My spinster aunty died at 101 1/2 in dec 2004 and we were at the cremation with a vicar that did one prayer and that was it, but she was sent on her way with the best funeral service i have ever heard (Included her poem when she was lowered to the crem) And that was arranged by my VERY ATHEIST grandmother.
I have never been to a non religous service for interment. If i did maybe I would change my mind but at the moment it is the norm to have a religous service when being intered. Has anyone seen the non religous interment?????
Lea :)

Yes my mum had a non religious interment in January this year.  She wasn't a religious person at all so we decided against having a vicar like we had at my dads funeral 5 years ago (my dad wasn't religious either) We had a small service at the undertakers and they played her favourite song and then she was buried with the registrar saying a nice poem.

Thankyou Anna.
Did it feel as if it was closure, as that is what i would dread. Not feeling as if the service was closure.
Lea :)

Well actually I didn't go to the service at the funeral parlour because I couldn't face seeing a coffin knowing that my mum was in it :-(  I know my mum would have understood why I didn't go and also my sister had organised it for 9.15 in the morning and I wanted my 5 year old to go to school so I couldn't have gone anyway.

I did make it to the burial though and actually had the courage to look at the coffin and say goodbye to her which I am glad about. When I saw the hearse coming I felt like I didn't want to get out of the car but I am glad I did. The service at the grave wasn't very long only about 5 minutes.

You can certainly have a 'religious' service at a crematorium, taken by a minister - no questions asked :) I'm not aware that being christened is a requirement for a funeral service in a church.

Daisy

I was christened, but didnt have to prove it when I married. However, to be a god parent the god parents have to have been confirmed.

I see what you are planning  A pair of wealthy widows travelling the world eh!

Thought we had the Thelma and Louise thing going on

Ok I am too young :D

I'm sure that Isabel won't mind an extra 'widow' :D You can push the wheelchairs :D

Daisy

Don't do pushing wheelchairs :rolleyes:

Will be a 'widow' but a real young one though :D

Thelma & Louise? :D

I thought someone mentioned the Council will do it. I don't mind being recycled and helping the flowers to grow :D

As I understand it, the debate is whether people who have a genuine medical need should have to pay for their own care (as opposed to people who need social care - who can go into sheltered housing, etc). 

Personally I would resent my mother having to sell her house to pay for long term medical care.  My mother and father (both from very poor working class backgrounds) worked very hard for most of their lives - my mother in a factory during the day and my father doing night work so that someone was always available to look after my sister and myself.  We were very hard up even though both worked full time and they struggled to buy their house, making huge sacrifices, thinking they would help my sister and myself in the future.

Just before my mother retired from full time work, my father died (he had suffered long term bad health).  My mother carried on working part time, even after her retirement age.  My mother receives a small pension from my fathers company and she pays tax on this.  she is not entitled to any help at all from the state because of this.  So she now pays tax on money that my parents paid into a pension from money they had already been taxed on (so twice she had paid for NHS).  I think it would be outrageous if she then had to sell her house to pay for health care!

My parents should have just spent their money living it up like a lot of others do and now my mum would be able to claim all sorts of benefits. By comparison, someone else I know lived in a council house, claiming benefits when necessary but always affording holidays and nice clothes for their children - and they will be guaranteed free care.  Definitely the wrong signals being given out to youngsters if you ask me!

I would have said we were taking about social care ie the sort than does not require a qualified nurse.  That can often mean more than sheltered housing but would, I believe, fall into the category of what a family might have done in the old days but which these days we generally choose to pay others for.  I believe health care is free.

Ok, I made that comment, so I'll comment. it does sound wrong. so let me try and get my real point across. (My main gripe was to do with tax, and the awful price we have to pay.) i do think its quite sad, for anyone who had the idea that the govn would support them in their old age, by way of pensions, care etc, now find that this is not totally the case. care is paid for at a very high price for someone who has saved and invested in their home, with the hope that the children would have some of this value when they either die or have to go into some form of care home (be that a standard home, cancer care home etc) than someone who has never worked and has lived off the state (which we who work all pay towards) who don't have to pay a penny. so, when what they have worked hard and strived for, hoping to give their kids a better start in life than maybe they had, is taken up in care costs ( into which they have paid for years) leaving little or nothing for their family which was their intent, yet those who have never paid a penny in, but have always taken (in the way of living on benefits we have all paid into but contributing nothing themselves) have the same level of care but don't have to pay a penny, is what gets to me. I'm not saying that those who can't pay for whatever reason should be put on the street, it just seems unfair to me that, having paid into a system that should have covered them for the latter years of their life, actually gives little return at the end of the day if their home has to be sold to pay care costs until the money runs out. to me, it just doesnt seem to be a level playing field. I don't expect anyone to keep me or my husband when we are old, nor do i expect my sons to take that responsibility on totally. they will have their own lives and hopefully familes to care for. But at some point I'm going to make damned sure of some things, namly that they will pay as little inheritance tax as possible, and that should the time come that we need care I will have already made provisions that whatever money/property we have will be sorted such as not to have to totally be gulped up by care fees. its called looking after your own, and that I will do to my dying day. if that offends, i make no appology for it. up until I had the kids i had a good career, and paid vast sums into the Ni superanuation, and tax, and my husband works damned hard and long hours to give us a livable standard of life, and we don't claim benefits, we have insurance policies covering just about everything that cost a small fortune each month, just to ensure that should something go wrong we can pay our way without being a burden on the state. i hope this gives you an idea of what I meant. as to the pension being enough to live on, and the help regarding energy being enough to heat their homes....which planet do you live on isabel? Without being rude, I would like to take you away from your comfy lifestyle, put you in a small council flat, with your husband, and feeling the suffering age brings on, such as painful joints, memory loss, etc, and see how you cope with paying your way on the basic state pension, which is no where near what these elderly people were promised when they contributed towards the state pension years ago, the promises of being looked after with enough money and lifestyle to have a good basic later life. try and provide food, heat, etc on a pittance. They feel the cold far more than younger people do, and need good, healthy food to keep them going, but very often cannot afford food and heat. So, they sit with a small bar electric fire, or a gas fire down very low, maybe wrapped in blankets, for fear that they cannot pay the bill when it arrives. if you had to live this way for a month, perhaps you would understand that the payouts are simply not enough. Old people do die from lack of heat and food, tell you what, speak with Age concern, see what they will say about the pensions and the elderly, and the quality of life for many of them. Some have worked all their lives, but because of low wages have not been able to save for their old age, having to raise a family and general living from day to day expensies. not everyone can afford to make investments, not only from the point of view of not having the cash to invest in the first place, but from not being able to afford the loss that could also occur should whatever they have invested in fail. Thats my rant on that subject. :rolleyes:On a different note, the tax payable to the tax coffers in Inhertence tax, with the level being the price of a fairly basic house in todays market, is daylight robbery by the govn (which ever party that may be) in my opinion, which seems to be shared by the nation if one reads the papers. I do object to 40% being taken from my estate for no good reason anyway, it is far to high, and the tax threshold far to low. I don't see why the taxman should take so much from my home, from whatever savings I may have managed to put together, all of which monies have already been taxed on, on my death. The size of capital gains is another subject that guiles me, why it should be so high. I was asked, with my opinion of tax in this country, why i don't leave. Why should I, this is my country which I am proud of, despite the tax situation, and I'm not one to run away, I'll stay and use my voice alongside the thousands of others, and by voting, to make life better for us all. and, if i can find a way to get round any tax implication, with any loophole, then I will. And be crushed in the rush, no doubt, of others who won't just sit and accept that its ok to be so ripped off by high taxes. As I say, along with tens of thousands of others, born free taxed to death!

I agree 100% the people who've worked and done without all their lives should morally have a better deal at the end than those who've done b****r-all for themselves, instead letting the rest of us fund them. Why shouldn't they have a right to say where their own money goes?

Rather than care homes I think more money should go into supporting elderly people in their own homes.

When did I say the pension was enough to live on?  I think I have mentioned more than once on this thread that we have been told for some time that the state cannot afford to continue supporting the number of old people with the projected numbers of young working people you have to make some provision as well if you can.  Nor did I say the heating suppliment was enough to heat homes, it is a suppliment but at £200 quid for a winter season a pretty reasonable one.
I haven't always lived in pleasantsville :)  At the age of 16 I was living on my own and supporting myself on a juniors wages back in the days when poverty was considerably more real than it is today.  Not many of you would have experienced, genuinely, having no money for the last 2 or 3 days of the week and only stopping it becoming the last 4 days by using no electricity for heating in the evenings but sitting reading in bed under the cover instead.  But I always worked then, even though the dole would have given me about the same and by the time I met my husband I was earning more than him on his training scheme :)  Only in late twenties did I marry and give up working.
I really can't tell from your rants whether you are an extreme socialist or a raving capitalist :D  How can you talk about the injusticies of the poor in one breath and than complain about a heavy tax on those with assets enough to attract inheritance tax let alone second property owneres or those with land to spare.

To answer you Isabel.........:rolleyes:   because i come from nothing, because I know exactly what its like to have NO money, because i made a life for myself on my own back, and because i have mixed with and worked with, people of all types and gender. I now am in a position to have a nice home, a good husband, 2 fantastic kids, even though we are not rolling we are managing. I am neither capitilist nor socialist, I simply have my own beliefs based on my 48 years of being on this planet. And yes, i'v known poverty, I remember the strikes, no gas, no electric, coal, and yes I too have had no heating and shivered under a blanket.My grandparents worked hard, scrimped and saved, and managed after a fashion on the money they had saved and a pension. It gave no luxuries, but they were happy. my step gran lived in a little cottage, no bath, the old fashioned range was where she cooked and she used an old fire iron to do her clothes. She worked her fingers off taking in laundry as a young woman with 2 boys and her husband away at war. But she was good with money, and little by little she purchased stocks and shares. She did without, to make sure the life her sons had would be a little better than hers. She left thousands and thousands of pounds when she died, more than was thought, and yes the tax man took huge amounts. That woman had worked her life to raise her kids, and by saving a bit and doing without, she thought she would give them a damn good nest egg. Well, the tax man certainly had one. You give the impression, Isabel, that you think the pension is enough, and that £200 is a good amount to pay for winter heating. You honestly think that £200 is a 'pretty reasonable one'. Really? For a period of say 6-8 mths, the two heaviest electric bill periods? Don't our old folk deserve more. i'm amazed. A lot of these pensioners don't have good heating systems, which will run more economically. They have electric fires, or gas fires, both of which are thirsty. As in expensive to run. We are talking the most expensive months of the year here, with more need for lighting never mind heat. The £200 is better than nothing, but does it cover it....I don't think so. Therefore many will suffer from cold and malnutrition again, with the worry of the bill coming in being more than they can afford, the added stress that brings on. You said you remember hard times, well try it as an old person, with pain in your joints so bad that you can hardly move in the cold weather, it being an effort to get out of the chair to heat a drink or cook some food, and know that this is your life, there is no more, you are not going to be able to work up and improve your life. ranting am I, depressing am I...guilty if thats how you want to see it, but hey, thats just your opinion, so hey babe, it don't worry me none. you wanna keep this going, i'll follow, but as I have said before, we'll never agree, we are poles apart, you have forgotton your roots, you only seem to care for yourself and your social life, well hunny thats your life, I respect you for what you have have, what you and your husband have managed between you, (might have been different with kids to eat your money tho lol)  and your views even though they differ to mine, but you know what I don't like? you saying your marriage has survived when others have fallen around you, as if its some sort of trophy.  As if it makes you in some way superior to those who have suffered broken marriages. i have friends whose marriages have not made it, and my heart goes out to them and the kids. Second property owners...didn't mention them, you did. my complaint was the amount of capital gains tax payable on property that forms part of your home, be that a large garden, a barn for conversion, it is still part of your home, not a second property purchased independantly from the home. At 40% capital gains tax its daylight robbery by the govn. i also think inheritance tax is the same, in fact as far as that goes, i strongly believe we shouldn't pay tax at all on something families have struggled with for years, hoping to hand down to their young families, to give them a good boost. If we have to, then I think, in this day and age, the threshold should be far higher, say £750,000 to a million. Now, i dont know, and dont want to know, why there is only you and your husband, but I'll tell you now, if you had an extended family, both ways kids and oldies, you may think differently. i'm yawning now, this is getting all a bit boring and I'm becoming repetitive. so, Im off now to collect coal from down coal face, walking 20 mile round trip with only clogs on, to sit and eat bread and drippin tween the 10 of us...sorry you guys, trying to lighten this up

Too right your repetitious :).  You are so busy repeating youself you are not bothering to read.  I have already said the pension is not going to be enough, the Government has warned you!  And I have already said the £200 is an extra, not to pay your whole heating bill! I think our pensioners do deserve more but they are not likely to get it when it remains so difficult for people to accept tax on Capital Gains, Death Duties etc. right up to 3/4 million pounds :rolleyes:
Nobody questioned whether you had ever been hard up but you questioned that I had which is why I told you my history.

>you saying your marriage has survived when others have fallen around you, as if its some sort of trophy.

Good grief where has that come from?
Yes, I mentioned second homes because I don't think they are any different to spare building land, barns etc neither, apparently, do the Government.
I do have an extended family, including pensioners :)

Ok. so i'v read all the back messages, again, and i can see that there is no pleasing you Isabel. I have explained myself till I'm blue in the face, so I won't carry on this farce. I have read your posts regarding the pension, which you don't say is enough, but give that impression, you think £200 is enough to assist with heating, you think the recent cold weather was not that bad, unless someone worked outside, well for some elderly people their houses are not as warm as yours, becaue with only £89 per week they can't keep it on all the time. Its like being outside. You say because you have not heard it since this gov came in, people have not died of the cold. Rubbish, just because you have not heard it, does it make it so? I think not. How the hell does anyone live on £89, such a small amount? Food, clothes, electric, heating, well one couple admit they have joint income from pension of £712, per 4 weeks, and because thats not enough they stillhave to work. The people on pensions now were promised so much more, by the time the rug was pulled out from under them they had no time to make provision. do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a family, a mortgage, all the insurances to cover critical illness, redundancy, income protector, run a car, and yet still have to fund a decent sized pension policy, because no one can say how much money will be needed to live 20 yrs on. Why should we accept such high tax when it seems that its not used where its needed? Where does this money go anyway?The death duty tax margin was set years ago, when property was no where near what it is today. thats why I think the margin should be raised, the price of property today i don't think 3/4 million pounds is out of line. although I don't agree with paying it anyway, and you know why so Im not repeating it again. i will find the link to the marriage thing. second homes are a luxuary, or investment, selling part of your own home is not the same thing at all. of course the Govn agree with you, they made the rules and while certain people follow them like sheep, they will continue to fleece us...mind you, don't you mean you agree with the govn, not the other way round lol....you said you have no family, its just you and hubby, why you dont have life insurance and no worries about dependants after your death. Sorry, but i took that to mean you have no living relatives. I see you do. Ok, time out, things to do, kids to fight into the bath and get to bed, dogs to wee, round 2 tomorrow lol.........

If you read I say something you can be sure I mean it if you get an "impression" otherwise you can be sure you are wrong.
If you recall I quoted the Met office's comments about the weather being pretty much as normal if not better in some cases.  As for not hearing of any hyperthermia deaths attributed to lack of money well I haven't.  It certainly used to make the papers regularly years ago.  No, that doesn't say it hasn't happened but then can you say it has?
It is clear my political views regarding the collection of taxes from those that have made profits from excess to requirement property or death duties for anything up to 3/4 million pounds is far more in keeping with allowing the opportunity for the Government to maintain a minimum level of benefit to pensioners.

>do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a family, a mortgage, all the insurances to cover critical illness, redundancy, income protector, run a car, and yet still have to fund a decent sized pension policy,

Yes.
I have no idea what your comments about my marriage has to do with this at all but you clearly have a great deal of personal antipathy towards me, that I don't give a toss about, but has served to remove this far from the original contention that is is wrong to evade tax that is due.  Why anyone with a social conscience would think otherwise is beyond me.
Unless you have something new to say on that subject I don't see the point of another round of saying the same stuff again and again and whether you think this tax or that tax is fair is irrelevent to it.

Europe has experienced below-average temperatures over a wide area through the winter 2005/6, including southern parts of the UK. This is the outcome we predicted was most likely
Northern parts of the UK did not follow the outcome we predicted as being most likely, and had a mild winter
The UK as a whole experienced a slightly warmer-than-average winter, but which was still the coldest since 2000/1
England has had a colder-than-average winter - the coldest since 1996/7
Wales has had a colder-than-average winter - the coldest since 1996/7
The coldest region relative to the long-term (30 year) average was southern England, at 0.4 °C below normal; the coldest since 1996/7
Scotland and Northern Ireland had a mean temperature above normal (0.77and 0.48 °C respectively), which continued a run of five mild winters for these parts of the UK
The average of this winter's Central England Temperature (the longest existing temperature record in the world), was below the average for 1971-2000
i believe as you look at the WHOLE summery from the Met Office predictions you will see that there is alot that backs up my theory.
A theory Backed up by People that have worked outside most of their lives and have lived in the same place most of their lives and say the same as me.
This winter is the longest prolonged spell of cold weather for along time. The last time my boss can remember easterly winds as cold as this was late 60's. this is from people that actually work out in it not from a web site that is made up of statistics!!!

Regional TV reported the other day that the Midlands has been declared officially to have had twice as many days below average temperatures than days above average for the time of year.

And from a Farmer.....
They normally drill Sugar beet the begining of March. This year the soil temperature is too cold. It is also colder than normal. Farmer has been doing Arable for over 4 years and up to this year they have drilled sugar beet by now.And was doing livestock before that, And cannot remember a period of cold weather for so long in over 10 years.
so that IS going to effect the elderly population that rely on electric of gas heaters to stay warm, the ones who donnot have central heating (Like my neighbour in a house that is so run down with no central heating, the wind goes THROUGH the windows, she goes round to her daughter to stay warm during the day as she CANNOT afford to pay for the elecrtic it is costing to heat her house!!!!)
So not looking at met office statistics. Talking to real people who can give real accounts of working the land.
Lea :)

This is the information I looked at as we were talking, then, about the recent weather.
These "coldest since" figures quoted are all pretty recent though except perhaps the Central England one.
Funnily enough there was an article in the Telegraph yesterday on this very subject I didn't bother quoting the subject at the time as I thought it was done with :):-
"What on earth is happening to the weather? The answer from the experts is much the same as usual: not only are the British obsessed by the subject they are notoriously forgetful about the seasons.
Winter (December to February) was slightly colder than average only in the south of England, while in other parts of Britain it was slightly milder.
March, despite the snowfall has yet to be declared exceptional.........
We may simply have become so used to our weather warming up that it comes as a shock when we have weather that would have been commonplace in the 1960s or 1970s
" have no doubt that if we get a warm southerly wind in the back end of the month we all will quickly forget about the winter"said Barry Gromett :) of the Met Office. "This March is not all that unusual"

If your quoting statistics..........Isabel quote - Winter (December to February) was slightly colder than average only in the south of England, while in other parts of Britain it was slightly milder. This goes against the Met office that you hold so highly
Lea quote from Met webaite -The average of this winter's Central England Temperature (the longest existing temperature record in the world), was below the average for 1971-2000
And this quote you have put is actually Going against everything you are trying to put across about the weather............
Isabel quote We may simply have become so used to our weather warming up that it comes as a shock when we have weather that would have been commonplace in the 1960s or 1970s
Lea :)

Where i am looking is http://www.met-office.gov.uk/research/seasonal/monthly_forecasts/winter2005-6/index.html
Shows how you can find the figures you want on the same site but portraying a different point of view!!!!!
Lea :)
(Mental note to make sure I look through the websites that people give to show their point of view as it does not always show 100% one way !!!)

Now I can read it a little easier I would say it does'nt contradict its other pages.  I seems to me to be saying quite clearly this winter, for the country overall, was slightly warmer than average but for a few areas it was colder than very recent years, ie less than 10 with the one anomoly of Central England that went back a little further, which would explain Gromitt's quote we have obviously been having it very mild for a few years so although it has been colder than them the average has still been exceeded.

Perhaps I have confused you

>"What on earth is ........

from this bit on it is the Telegraph article not me and they are quoting the Met Office. It doesn't seem at all at odds with the link that I have given you in my last post when it says almost exactly that for February.
Why have you put the Central England anomoly in bold?  I have already acknowledged that.
I guess Gromitt's :) quote is a little out of line, unless he was just talking about the snow but the Met statistics are there on the link I have posted.

>This goes against the Met office that you hold so highly

Well, there is a very good countryman that writes interesting articles about the weather in the Keswick Reminder but for national statistics I'm not sure who else to value :)

Just a quicky to those interested, in relation to deaths of the elderly in relation to the cold and lack of money to keep warm. In the last 5 years more than 130,000 people over the age of 65 have died in england and wales as a direct result of the cold. last winter 31,000 people over the age of 65 died in england and wales as a direct result of the cold. These figures given from the Age concern website, compiled by the office of National statistics. it is not that people are necessarly falling asleep from cold and not waking, but suffering the effects of having been dreadfully cold and the conditions that develop from that. The thing is, be it a sudden death, or a lingering painful illness that brings their life to an end, the fact remains that due to having no decent pensions, no decent help from the govn regarding help with heating, these people are dying. Please don't take my word for it, look on the Age Concern website.

Isabel. The tax evasion thread may have started this, but you have pulled to bits and basically attacked every personal belief of mine since then. I don't expect anyone to have my views, we all have a mind of our own. Hoever, I am giving my views on tax which are shared in this country from people from all walks of life, from those on benefits who have to pay extra tax each year to afford a ciggy occasionally (and I mean the genuine people that claim benefits, not those avoiding work) to the estate land owners and Lords and Ladies of this country who have seen their vast estates have to be split up and sold due to inheritance Tax. This does not just effect them, but the people who have lived for generations in the tied cottages, working the land, the house, and suddenly finding themselves without a home or job. Where do they go to? yes, they can claim against the estate for the length of time they have lived there, and redundancy, but it's precious little compared with what they have lost.(and it would be taxed) :rolleyes:And then are they not a drain on the country, needing housing (from where? the govn have no good quality houseing for those on the waiting lists) and will have to claim benefit to live. These are proud, hardworking folk who wouldn't want to claim a penny under normal circumstances. Then there are the farmers, crippled by the last foot and mouth (govn handling of that was as usual not the most helpful) who have to diversify or go bust. So many farms sold, from people having to in financial need. but hey, never mind, the taxman had lots to put in his coffers from those sales. The small-holder who decides to try and sell a part of the holding to avoid bankrupsy by either selling a barn or a plot of land, trying to use assets that he has paid for over and again in many ways, finds himself losing a vast amount to crippling capital gains tax. This is not land or buildings that are surplus, but a way for that person to be able to repay debt, and stay in the home that may have been in his family for years. What I am talking about is peoples lives here, and how unfair the tax system is. This is not simply my view, take a look around you isabel, read the papers, all of them, get a more balanced view of the strength of feeling in this country about the tax situation, the underhand way some taxes are introduced, and how the failing benefit system in this country is making peoples lives a misery. you are seeing things in black and white. you say you are law abiding, and have no time for any crimes. what I see is the grey area, people evading tax because of their personal finances, not because they are evil. if you were starving, would you steal food for your child? Would you chastise a child that stole from a shop to buy food for the younger members of the family who were hungry? at the end of the day, if paying so much extortionate rates of tax actually made things better for this country, actually made better lives for our old folk, better NHS health care (which Blair wants to end, so we all have to pay out for health insurance, or not have care we receive now, but of course, there is tax to pay on insurance) better dental care, more housing for those on a lower income, and this was actually happening and to continue happening so that we all knew we would be looked after then, and only then, I just may think that paying so much tax would be a good thing. But its not that way, is it. you have been fourtunate to spend most of your adult life safe in the knowledge that your husband is out there earning the money, which ok you have wisely invested, and you have 'socialised' but not been out there, seeing life as it is, if you did you would have your eyes opened. Even princess Diana ensured her sons saw the other side of life, taking them to visit all sorts of places as young boys, to let them see life is not rosy for all. But, as i said before, you and I will never agree. I think all along I have given a balanced view of my feelings, and I have explained myself as clearly as i possibly can to you. Perhaps all I say about the country and its situation is untrue? Perhaps everyone is more than happy to pay huge taxes? tell that to the haulage industry, for one. And as to pensions, tell the old folk that are freezing, suffering with the effects of the extreem cold weather over the past 5 years, that they are getting enough pensions and benefits, that £200 is enough to help with their heating. to late for those that have died as a direct result of the cold.

I have given my views on the subject too which I am entitled to do.  I do not resort to personal comments on peoples marriages, trophies etc.  And as to your comments about not understanding the other side of life because I am comfortable now!  I have already told you that I have lived in very mean conditions as an adult nor did I have a privileged childhood, my parents did not own any furniture of their own let alone a house until I was in my early teens so please stop preaching to me that you, and Princess Diana :rolleyes:, have some sort of special knowledge in this area that I do not have.
I cannot understand your arguement at all you rail against the injustices of the poor and yet you do not want the wealthy or dead taxed and seem to think taxing them is causing poverty.  I say you could not be further from the truth and yet you see that as some sort of incompassion for the poor :rolleyes:
What extreme cold weather?  Have you not looked at the Met office links Lea and I have used there, no mention of extremes.

To me, extreme cold weather is when it freezes before 6pm, and continues all night, when it snows and freezes, when you can see your breath in un heated rooms. When it's to damn cold to go to the loo! when its raining and bitter, the cold and damp go right through you. How extreme does it have to be when your mobility is poor, and all you have is a small electric fire?
what I know about Princess Di is what I read in papers, and the news, the pictures taken, the fact that she worked for the under dog with her charities, went in among victims of aids touching them, talking to them at close quarters, helping the general public realise that they are not to be shunned, that this disease can't be transmitted that easy. Fantastic lady to which money and living conditions meant little, she went everywhere. trying to help. making people sit up simply because she was who she was. and no, before you say it, i don't liken myself to her, I can see you'll make that connection next! you only remember what it was like to have nothing, and from what you have said it was an awful long time ago. we all cope with situations better when we are young, fit and healthy. The elderly are not so young fit and healthy, some have some awful problems, and what I have said is not that you have no idea what it is like to live without money, but to put yourself in their shoes, ill health, poor nutrition, painful joints, and imagine how you would keep yourself over the year on a pitiful pension, despite benefits which I wouldn't think amount to much, and a very poor heating supliment. maybe out of the 130,000 people that have died over the past 5 years there are some that had money put away that they could have used to make things better for themselves. Or lived in property that was falling around them, which they could have sold to better their living conditions. we will never know why they stayed like that, but one thing is for sure, it certainly does not cover the whole number of people.

Ok, as far as pensions go, and the plight of the elderly, i'll simply leave you to read the Age Concern website. perhaps, by reading about the plight of those less fortunate than yourself you may have a greater knowledge of the FACTS. I need say no more, simply let the FACTS speak for themself. Perhap a medical site may help you as well, to find out how much more heat and warmth an elderly person needs, compared to a younger person, what exactly the basic requirements are for the elderly. Perhaps someone who cares for the elderly here, or someone with medical knowledge may care to offer an opinion. Simply medical, food and warmth, nothing controversial.

simple fact is, the Govn are taking an awful lot off us all, one way or another, and giving exceptionally little back in return. This has been going on for years, look at our roads, falling apart, the NHS, hardworking staff working their guts out for us yet many wards are empty and large waiting lists. Course, blair is trying to scrap the NHS. Just tell me, where IS all the various taxes we pay going?

Isabel, you obviously have no comprehension of what has been happening in this country for businesses over the past few years. it all seems to have escaped you totally. You simply don't understand what I am on about, do you. I guess its not touched you or yours. therfore you will never understand how someone can see things from both sides of the fence, look out of the box. you have been a housewife the majority of your life, rather than being a worker or employer. you have not had to juggle books, nor had to tell a loyal workforce sorry, the company has gone bust. Not had a small holding that due to foot and mouth you can no longer run because of debts, so have to sell a portion (which really you could do without losing) to attempt to keep afloat, only to have a whooping great chunk taken by tax. Because of Inheritance tax people have lost homes and jobs, putting more presure on the state. How is this justified? Perhaps you don't understand me because you have no knowledge of these things, perhaps you can only see one point of view. I don't know. But I'v fully explained my self to you, as simply as i can, yet you don't seem to take any of it on board. :rolleyes:

I know what exteme weather is and so does the Met office
I've only been married 21 years for goodness sake. I can certainly remember our first home in the far north of Scotland with no heating except the coal fire in the sitting room.  As I have to keep repeating I have not always lived in pleasantsville when I first met my husband I earned more than him on his graduate training scheme and what I earned wasn't anything much.  I gave up work because I wanted dogs and we went without many things that others would regard as essentials.

>I guess its not touched you or yours

Perhaps you should stop quessing then, this constantly having to keep list "whole in the road living" is tedious but you just don't seem to accept that I do not come from a privileged background or that I am not too old to remember   My Grandparents lived with no electricity and no water other than a cold rainwater tap in the house for washing etc, drinking water hand drawn from the well and an outside bucket toilet emptied by the council, this was until the mid 1970s and as I child I lived there for a time.  Do you really think I can't remember.
How much has it touched you and yours if you are so concerned about capital gains and death duties? 

>Fantastic lady to which money and living conditions meant little

I'm not even going to go down that route :D

>the Govn are taking an awful lot off us all, one way or another, and giving exceptionally little back in return.

That is just your opinion it is not mine and I can't possibly see why taking less money from the rich is going to improve matters even if you were right.
I have studied anatomy and physiology so I have some understanding of the needs of the human body ;) however the debate is whether those needs are being supplied.
I really can't understand why you are wandering off into foot and mouth etc. what has this to do with the evasion of tax?  I live in the midst of one of the most affected areas and have friends that farm and were affected they have all received compensation and none have resorted to selling land although they are obviously bereft at the lose of their breeding stock for example. The tourist related industries suffered much more and received far less financial assistance but I see absolutely no connection in what we are discussing here.
I am not just a housewife :) I invest and have been reasonably successful which is rather hard to do if you don't understand the business world :).  Businesses fail for many reasons, sometimes because they are simply unviable and being unable to pay their taxes certainly put them in that category.
You are right there is no point in you trying to explain your thoughts to me as they have made no sense so far.  You say I appear to have no knowledge of these things and have only one point of view but I could say exactly the same about you :D

OMG.............I have never said you came from a wealthy background, at all! The 70's were difficult for most of us, but its been 30 years since then! You did well, time makes you forget. Ok, so you invested well, but if your husband had not had such a good job as to keep you at home to do this, if you had been out at work and raising a family, had other commitments you may not have done so well! But, thats not the point here, you have seen the age website (I imagine) and because you don't agree with it, you rubbish it. I guess all the hard working people there are liers too. Together with the govn for the figures they give. Ok fine. The people that worshiped Diana, and the sterling work she did, the absolute crouds of people that felt for her loss,for all that she was, you are rubishing them too?

Thing is isabel, you know exactly what I'm saying, and now i know your qualifications, i know exactly what little game your playing here. OK, you got me, :rolleyes: but Im still laughing xx