Coming off at a tangent from the feed from US thread, why is there this concept that <<the now elderly pearson has to go into care. never mind that they have paid into the system for years, that property has to be sold and the proceeds used to pay for care which has already been paid for.>>

Now I'm a lot nearer this point in my life than most of you - although let it be said, not for another 20 or 30 years :D - but why on earth is it expected that elderly people should not be expected to pay for themselves?  Why is it assumed that because a person has worked hard to buy a house which has increased in value that person should not use that increase to improve their own standard of living - albeit in sheltered accommodation/nursing home (although I do feel that with the NHS, nursing should be free).  Is it automatic that someone's family should profit from the increase?

In the past, families looked after their own elderly relatives themselves, and the extra expenses of caring for them would just be another part of the family expenses.   Now it seems that the State (in other words - US) - is expected to pick up the tab, whilst the families reap the profit from hanging onto a house, and then selling it once the relative has died, and "divvying up" the proceeds between them.  Why?

My father paid for his own care, as did my mother-in-law.   I too am quite prepared to sell my home to pay for my own (or OH's care) as we get too old to cope on our own.   Anything that is left over will happily go to the Mob then.  

In the meantime, I'm busy SKIing (Spending the Kids' Inheritance) ;)

Margot

Maybe we should start another thread on this point?

Hmmm, I think there are so many different circumstances its difficult to generalise - which is what the NHS is doing now.

Case in point - when my Aunt reached 100 she became very ill with stomach cancer. She lived with my mum and dad for 18 years having bought part of the house with them, but they paid for everything - bills, heating, food - everything. In August last year she started to become very ill. My mum looked after her with NO support (they wouldn't give Aunty any treatment because of her age - only pain relief) through some very bad patches (bearing in mine my mum is nearly 60 and not well herself). Finally, when mum could take no more they sent the McMillon nurses in (this was in December) and mum was nearly having a nervous breakdown. They sent Aunty into hospital - who sent her back out again (and left her shivering in a hall waiting for me to pick her up in her nighty) TWICE until finally they sent her into a hospice (a donation funded hospice), she was in there a night before she died. Inbetween the hospital and the hospice they had said she would have to go into a home that could give palliative<sp> care and - the best of it is - Mum and Dad may well have had to sell the house to release her money to pay for it!!

I wouldn't expect the taxpayer to fund me if I CHOSE to go into sheltered accomodation etc - but I DO expect to be looked after when I am dying by the £££ of contributions to the NHS I have paid over the years.

Of course the NHS should be looking after her - and I would expect them to look after all of us - THAT's what we pay our NI contributions for - but I feel that the NHS is far too accountable to the money managers!

Your mum & dad won't have to sell the house to fund your aunt in these circumstances - if the house is registered in all three names (or even 2) then they cannot (and shouldn't be) co-erced into selling it.   Once they do sell, then a proportion will be clawed back, but tehy cannot be forced to do so - although too often councils will lean upon vulnerable relatives to release capital early.

Margot

It sorted itself out in the end - she died in December - but it was so stressful for my mum

THAT's what we pay our NI contributions for

Er National Insurance Contributions are not for the NHS they are for benefits like JSA, InCap & Retirement Pension

NHS funding comes from the tax scheme which is totally separate

If your parents are over pension age themselves they would not have been expected to sell their home even if your aunt had totally owned it

They weren't over pension age.

Totally disagree :) Haven't got time to explain now - will do later. I've got two elderly relatives in care (my Mother aged 91 and my aunt aged 100) - also had FIL aged 91 until he died last week :(

Will comment later :D :D

Daisy

My gran, who's 97, is now in a care home after she became a danger to herself - leaving cookers on, not turning gas off properly and wandering the streets in the early hours looking for whoever she thought was knocking on her door Her 'rent' is paid for from her pension, she has her meals with others in the dining area (paid for seperately) She is showered once a week and the bed sheets are changed on the same day.  They make sure she has her pills once a day. All other care is provided by us in turn when we visit.

>She is showered once a week

Whether she needs it or not?

Crikey, Missie, I won't be very happy if I only get showered once a week

In Guernsey, people would end up in care,sharing rooms or not and if they had money they paid (even having to sell property). The people they shared rooms or facilities with were just as likely to be the wastrels who had never done anything but 'scrounge from the state and take as their right'. So Guernsey increased contributions by a small margin and now fund for all. There is a limit but it is a standard high enough for requirements. Not before time as you can imagine in such a small place people do know a lot about the business of others and it saves very respectable people the indignity of showing there resentment of others.

I agree Margot.  I do not expect my care to be paid by anyone else. That is what I have built up my assets for, my needs, be it now or in the future.  How would people answer the question at what age do you stop being resonsible for the payment of your own needs?  As long as you are able to, that is.

I'm sorry but I'm one of those people who think it's disgusting that they have to pay, when they've put in the NI contributions etc.  There are people out there who sit on their **** all day, who could work and can't be bothered and get paid by us the hard working GP, they get everything paid for them and they still moan.

My parents worked hard to be able to afford the house that they had and thought that it would go to their children when the time came.  I must admit that if anything does happen to my parents, which certain things are I do not want them to go into a care home, but I work full time and I'm single.  I will help them out as much as I possibly can and hope that I will be ther for them when the time comes.

Due to my parents saving up they do not get any contributions because they've looked after their money too well in case they ever had a crisis.  It seems that people who squander their money, don't work etc. are fed an easy life.

A friend of mines mother died a few years ago and as the house was under her name they had to sell up, they were in their 70's.  They sold up, gave the money to the home and she only lived a couple of weeks afterwards, there's something wrong somewhere!

>There are people out there who sit on their **** all day, who could work and can't be bothered and get paid by us

Exactly, and are we joining them?  No because we have more respect for ourselves, so why would we change our attitude when we get old.  If I can possibly support myself (or my husband can ;)) I will and I don't plan to ever stop.
I don't think your friends would have handed over all the proceeds of her house over to the home surely they would have been paying weekly or monthly for her care in which case the remainder would have been left to them.

My parents too worked hard for what they had - both father and FIL in the armed services during WWII.   Yet they quite happily paid their way when the time came.   They left us the legacy of knowing how important it is to be self-supporting.   We, hopefully, are doing this with our children.

I'm totally and utterly disgusted with the guy who is railing at the welfare state not giving him more at the moment - I would happily give him something extra - a vasectomy (preferably without anesthesia :D ) .    Sadly we seem to be in danger of becoming a nation which thinks that Someone Else should be responsible for everything :(

Margot

When the house is taken over and sold to pay for care, these assets are frozen, and used to pay for the care. The family are not allowed to touch them. it is only after death that any remaining money is released, when all has been paid for.

I'm not completely sure here... I don't know British system that well anyway, but can someone explain one thing to me? Why do old people have to sell their properties to be able to pay for their care? Surely they are getting pension money....can't that pay for it? Or perhaps a little help of their children if that's not enough? ;) Our parents did take care of us (most of them hopefully) and gave up a lot for us and I think it's our moral obligation to return all of that in a way.....

Hmm, I believe that to go in a home locally here would cost in excess of £500 a week - that would take a pretty significant pension to cover it... :)

Do people still go and live in guest houses like those genteel old folks in Faulty Towers?  I always fancied that meself :)

:d :d If only, would be much cheaper and not slagging off all homes but the care might be better there!!

So long as you don't mention the war

:D You're not kidding. My auntie is in one that looks massive from the outside, but inside she is in a teeny tiny box room for £2grand a month

What is a minimum pension in UK if you don't mind me asking?..... just curiosity. ;)

See my post below :D
Lea :)

No idea - I am far too young :D :D :D

Ory, The basic pension over here is approximatly £89/week. Not enough to pay for full time care in a care home :( Let alone enough to give yourself proper care in your own house, which is why so many pensioners live below the bread line, and so many die in the winter because they cannot afford to heat their homes, and die of hypothermia :(
HTH
Lea.

>and so many die in the winter because they cannot afford to heat their homes, and die of hypothermia

I haven't heard anything like that for years, not since this government.  I certainly know my pensioner father got an extra £200 for his heating bill this year and has had something similar for several years now.

I still hear it on the news every so often :( Its just not publicised as strongly anymore.
Just wondering how many will this year, as this is the longest cold spell I have known for at least 5 years and with the price of fuel going up so much there will be alot of older people that wont put the heating on because they are scared of the bills :(
Lea.

We had a bit of snow on Sunday but I would hardly say this is the coldest spell for years :)  It snowed on this day in 1985, I know because it was the day I got married :)  I have really never heard of pensioners dying of hypothermia for years and as I say they get a pretty generous payout every winter purely for extra heating in addition to any other benefits.

Sorry that came across wrong, Its not the coldest its been, but as far as I can remember, it has got up to double figures for about 5 days since mid december. So it is prolonged cold weather not coldest winter. I cant remember the last time we had 3 months of tempreatures hardly getting into double figures and this is the 7th winter i have been working outside. (But remember having to usae a pick to dig a hole which we havnt had to do this winter thank god!!! LOL
Lea :)

I guess working outside your perceptions may be different :)  The met office monthly weather summary says "Mean temperatures close to average across the S of the UK, but well above average across the N of Scotland" for January and "Mean temperatures ranged from below average across south-west England to above average across Scotland" for February so overall all not a particulary cold spell for most people.

But what about me in the east :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Alot of the builders around here have said the same!!!
I am sure at this time last year I was just in T shirt and trousers some of the time. This year I am Still wearing my long johns!!!
And a few years ago i put my shorts on sometimes in April, cant see that happening this year!!!
I just hope you right and the elderly do get plenty of money for heating, unfortunatly from what I have heard, some dont :(
Lea :)

>And a few years ago i put my shorts on sometimes in April, cant see that happening this year!!!

Maybe you are getting older ;)
My "horse's mouth" ;), Dad, got £200 and he does not qualify for any benefits otherwise :)

Maybe you are getting older
Yep I will be 29 this year :o LOL
Lea :)

Oh my! Thank you though....... was just wondering really. It's really sad though. Poor old people contributed so much in their lives and don't get much in return. :(  I'm probably going to open an account myself and start saving for the old days anyway.....

The government has made it perfectly clear that it cannot be possible in the future for the fewer younger people to support an ever increasing elderly population and that people must make provision for themselves and have been advising people for sometime to make further provision.  That is not to say that the state will not continue to assist those who can't.  In addition to the state pension many additional benefits are available for those who require it.

They tell us not to drink, smoke or eat fatty foods so we all live longer, then they tell us they can't afford for us all to live longer :rolleyes: :D

:D :D

State retirement pension for OH & myself totals the princely sum of £712 per 4 weeks

Although it isn't taxed per se, that amount is deducted from personal allowances, so everything else is taxed.

Needless to say - we're still working :D

Margot

OK - I'm back :D

As my family, until last week, was coughing up £6000 per month to keep three relatives in care homes ('family' in general terms), I think that I'm well qualified to comment on this :)

I don't object, per se, to people paying their own way for their care etc. I have no objection to the government (us) paying for poor people to be looked after at the end of their days. What I do object to is twofold:

a) A lot of people DO NOT save for their old age (when they could) - why should we pay for them
b) Most (all ?) care homes have TWO rates - a higher rate for people who are paying for themselves and a lower rate for those who are paid for by the DSS :rolleyes: People who are paying for themselves are ALSO subsidising the others (who may have had exactly the same income during their lives, but have spent it all :( )

Daisy

a lower rate for those who are paid for by the DSS :rolleyes:

The DWP does not pay fees for anyone in Residential or nursing care & hasn't done for a few years now The DSS ceased to exist a few years back as well

All the funding, other than the residents who fund themselves, is met either by the NHS if nursing care is needed &/or the Local Authority SSD department, who set the max fees they will meet BTW not always the full fees charged by the homes

Who cares who pays it - we haven't been fortunate enough to have anyone pay for either of my mother, FIL or aunt :(

So they may not even pay the lower rate then ??? :(

My aunt who is nearly 101 and has severe dementia has been funding herself at £600 per week(at least, it could well be more as she's in a London nursing home) for nearly nine years. Fortunately she has a pension and receives attendance allowance - but there is still a huge shortfall. She never had children, but nursed (free) her severely ill husband for many years :(

Daisy

So they may not even pay the lower rate then ???

The residents ? Far from being 1,000's of wasters being paid for in residential care because they haven't saved their money, they are in the main pensioners who never earned enough to save anything & were never in a position to own their homes, & also they can be elderly people with learning diabilities who were put away in "special" hospitals so they were out of sight of the real world , who have never been able to work

I used to deal with elderly residents from all parts of society-from the mega rich to those who have lived in poverty all their lives for various reasons(too many to put on here)

What do you suggest when people are no longer able to care for themselves ? Only those who have worked & saved be cared for & the rest lefdt to their own devices

Part of the area I covered contained some of the poorest people in the UK they had the worst jobs & the worst pay & lead awful lives. They may have been married to dreadful partners who drank their wages away leaving their families with virtually nothing to live on-something that contines in today's society believe you me. Do they not deserve dignity & care if they need it ?

It has always been the case that if there is a property with no one living in it it has had to be sold to pay the fees-it's not a recent thing, but the SSD do claw back the fees thay have paid for whereas the now defunct DSS did not & it is this claw back & susequent misinformation(deliberate BTW to conserve SSD funds) from the SSD about the levels of savings they take into account that means many residents don't receive the LA funding they are entittled to

IF you had read my post, you would have seen that I said that I had NO objection to poor people (ie, those on low incomes etc) being paid for. What I DO object to is people who are on higher incomes who spend everything that they have on holidays, cars, etc etc and then end up having to be subsidised by others who have spent their lives being thrifty and saving for their old age :( My FIL who died last week was on the last of his income and my husband was just about to apply to whoever for payment of his home fees. He had come from a working class background (he is described as an undertakers assistant on my husband's birth certficate as that was the only job he could get). He studied at evening classes to 'better' himself, so that he could buy a house for his family. He worked hard all his life, well into his retirement. The only holidays they had were the odd weekend away - they had never been abroad. Why should he spend ALL his money on his care, when someone else has never saved a penny (and I'm NOT talking about people who never had any money TO save)

Daisy

A lot of people DO NOT save for their old age (when they could) - why should we pay for them
In what way could we foresee having to go into care? We have life insurances to cover our deaths - well people should anyways - and have worked to deserve our pensions. Or do you mean the benefit scroungers who won't work, don't insure, then collect state pensions (which isn't a lot) and then maybe end up in homes? I don't know much about care homes, are there some then that take people in who haven't any money?

In my grans case, she has life insurances so hopefully that will cover any funeral expenses. She has a widows pension and state pension and this is what pays her weekly accomodation. She's worked all her life until retirement (she's 97) As she lived in a council house before she moved into housing association care, she had housing benefit etc so didn't pay rent/rates. Now she does, out of her pension, no one else pays for her care, only her.
I suppose it would have been different if she had owned her own house, maybe she wouldn't have council care, I really don't know. Its a nice clean flat, self contained, within the home, but she pays extra for meals and laundry as she is unable to do this for herself hence one of the reasons for her being there.
Before, she had a 'carer' who came in 3 times a day to prepare meals for her, and she showered every day, now its only once a week. Her living on her own was fine until she actually put herself in danger a couple of times and all the family thought she would be better off among people and carers full time. I don't know if everyone pays the same, I think its £112 per week plus other expenses like evening entertainment, singalongs etc :) 

>In what way could we foresee having to go into care?

I can't remember ever not realising that could happen :)
I don't have life insurance, why would I need it?  No one is dependent on me.

Well I have never thought that I will end up in care, so why would I save for it? I can think of a lot of things to save for but going in a home isn't one of them ;)

Edited: Do you not have any family Isabel? If you don't have life insurance, who's gonna bury you?

This thread has evolved from my first point - which was why should people who do own their own properties expect to not pay for their own upkeep in retirement homes?

Margot

Well I think they should sell up and pay for their own keep, and why not?

I've not been saving to go into a home, I'm hoping my investments will fund a jolly nice lifestyle in retirement, hopefully doing a lot more travelling, but of course if things go belly up it will pay for care instead. 
No, no family, but I reckon Hubby would fork out a few quid to bury me and if he goes first why will I care, they can put me on the waste tip behind Asda, I won't know will I?
Don't worry, though, I have got Hubby insured ;)

Behind Asda? :D
Seriously though, if someone has no-one to bury them, do social services pay the costs?