On speaing to teh kenenl club bods at a show they seemed quite mystified that we didn't like that nice telephone operators mugshot all ove the registration forms. 

They pointed out that the new owners get a nice one, but what about us breeders?

I think they are under the impression that all pups are sold.

Unfortunately, the KC endorsements are all we have to fall back on. Believe me, I would love to stipulate in my contracts "if you breed from a dog/bitch I consider will not benefit the breed I will send a couple of thugs to break your legs" - but I can only do what is legally available to me and trust my judgement of the people I sell my puppies to. :)

The day the KC dog registrations becomes a non profit organisation will be the day we move forward.

I don't understand why the KC don't introduce a grading system It's common practice in the horse world and people don't question having their stallions graded to make the progeny eligibile for breed registration. (having seen some 'graded' stallions though would have to question the judges who actually award the certs!! :rolleyes: but at least it's SOMETHING)

The arab Horse society also do a premium scheme for mares, if your mare has won enough at certain shows (similar to JW) or her progeny have, then she is classed as a premium mare. if you use a premium stallion when you registar the foal the AHS refund £250.

Could the KC not impliment something similar to enocourage better practice??

During the late 70s the KC tried a different registration system, involving a basic register and an active register. I think all puppies were put on the basic register, but if you wanted to show or breed from them they had to be transferred to the active register ... it was universally hated!

And incredibly slow - I had a dog who was almost out of Junior by the time I received his registration

Hi all, when i purchased my girl she was endorsed, after a rigorious vetting, was given a letter that said it could be lifted provided she was over the age of 2 . I thought this was fair enough, i also agreed to contact he breeder when the time came for advice on stud etc

From the other side of the fence (buying a puppy, first dog at that!) I actively checked that the breeder put these endorsements on. I had researched what they meant (was buying a lab - so obviously hips need to be scored when they are older) and asked the question of breeders when I enquired. I have no intention whatsoever of breeding from my boy - but it was a helpful indication to me that she had the interests of the breed at heart.
By the same token, if the breeder wasn't keeping a pup for themselves i.e. for showing, then I didn't even look at the litter. As a newbie, it was the only way I could ensure that they had done their very best with the breeding.

That is good Blondie, I always say to people try to satisfy themselves as to why that little was born..

Regarding the endorsements. There are a few things that worry me. If you have sold a puppy, and are happy to remove the breeding endorsment because the grown animal shows itself worthy of being bred from,(and all the other reasons you personally have to remove said restrictions) how can you be sure that it will stay in the ownership of the person registered on the kc certificate, and that all the regulations you placed on it with the original sales contract will be in place with the new owner (if it was subsequently sold on). I know some contracts will state things such as only 3 litters, not to be bred before 2 yrs or after 6 yrs etc, but is that contract not with the breeder and the original purchaser and not with a new or in fact any subsequent owners? Even if you state that the dog must be offered back to you should the need arise, how legally binding is that? Or, in fact,  anything else on the contract? also, should you sell a puppy, with the provision that you will remove any restrictions placed at a certain time/for specified reasons, and you then die before the pup reaches these provisions, how does the owner stand then? The Kc has told me that provision has to be made in ones will for this, to each individual puppy, but we all know that keeping up to date with ones will can be something we put off. So how would the purchaser then stand? I'm not saying restrictions are a bad thing, I just see one or two pitfalls, thats all, and wonder what your views are.

There was a thread on here about that once, a woman had died and someone asked the kc about lifting the restrictions and it couldnt be done. That is something that you should think about if you buy a puppy with restrictions. No one can predict the future!

If you had the terms in writingfor which the endorsements would be lifted and you met ALL of these terms even in death the KC would be obliged to lift them. I do stress it would need to be clearly in writing and thes conditions 100% met.

This is where the endorsements can fail people. I think you should also be able to lift for one litter and then be able to put them back on. I guess this is too controlling in some peoples eyes.

At the end of the day they are there to be used as best as possible.Contracts can have as many things in them as you like to put in them  , if they are not fair they are not valid and would be disregarded.

Simple and clear is how the contract should be , not 10 pages. This lets any reader clearly see your (the breeders) genuine intention.

I have been considering putting my name down for a puppy in a rather rare breed that I may have to wait for more than a year or two for from one of the doyens well into her senior years but have been mulling over this problem and have come to the same conclusion as you that I am going to need it in the contract as to what will happen in the event of her death.  Now I am looking for suggestions on how to broach the subject of getting a "death clause" written in from someone where the chance of invoking it seems all too possible :D

When I rang the Kennel Club regarding the restrictions and the death of the breeder, i was told that the restriction would only be lifted if it had been put in the will, not if it said in the sale contract that it would be lifted. The lady was most definate that any letter/contract at the time of sale was not good enough to lift the restriction at a later date if the breeder had died, it had to be in writing signed by the breeder at the time it was required to be lifted, and if the breeder had died then that named puppy from that named litter had to be mentioned in the will, and the details of what circumstances the restriction could be lifted, so that the excuters of the will could make this restriction be lifted.

I don't think, as yet and I stand to be corrected on this, that a contract made at the time of sale, unless contracted by solicitors, signed and witnessed, would be legally binding anyway, should it come to court. So I would think that, as the Kc have this view of restrictions, that you would need something legally binding to say that, in the event of the death of the breeder, the will would state that the restriction be lifted.

That's disappointing.  I can't really see breeders paying solicitors fees to amend their wills every time they sell a puppy that may in the future prove worth breeding.  I think the KC play fast and loose with these endorsements anyway, when it suits them, isn't it the case that they will not uphold the endorsements if the dog is sold on to a third party as they were not part of the original contract in which case perhaps the answer is just to sell the dog to your husband get the endorsement lifting and sell back to you!

Isabel

What I would suggest you do, is write to the kennel club explaining that you wish to purchase a dog that will have restrictions on, which you are happy to do, but your concern is that if, at a later date and you having followed the breeders list of requirements to have the restriction removed, the breeder has died, how does that leave you?
Can they tell you, in writing to avoid confusion,  what would the breeder have to do to ensure you have the restrictions removed should the breeder die before the requirements of the restriction can be lifted?

Having received a reply, when you go to see your breeder and are talking about restrictions, bring this matter up and show her the letter from the Kc, taking a copy which you could leave for the breeder. That way, it is clear for both of you. It is a tricky subject, but at the end of the day you are buying the puppy, and have a legal right to this information, and the breeder under kennel club rules, (and possibly sales of goods act) has to inform you of all the ins and outs of the breeding restriction, and this question forms part of that.

Yes that sounds like a good plan.  The breed is in such need of an increase in numbers that the club, of which I am a member, are encouraging all healthy bitches to be bred from so that seems a good way of bringing the subject up.

I heard today of a breeder charging the cost of a puppy for lifting the breeding endorsement, I dont like the sound of that. What do others think?
Amos

To me, that smacks of 'in it for the money' unless there was no charge/nominal sum made for the puppy at the time it left the breeders premises, with the provision made that should they want the restriction lifting the full purchase price be made.

Without knowing the whole story  this is not uncommon but not in a way of " give me a pup I will lift the endorsements"

Many successful hard working breeders who have invested thousands in their line often sell puppies as potential show puppies at pet prices, on the agreement of a puppy back if the puppy proves to be worthy in the ring and suitable for breeding .  Some people just charge large amounts to begin with.. 

I personally think this isn't a bad thing and respect peoples views and choices on how they protect and nurture the lines.

Depends entirely what was agreed at time of sale.  It's easy to misinterpret only hearing one side, secondhand. :)

I don't understand how these posts fall ???? I put one further up if you are interested!! ;-)

Posts fall, in order of posting, below the one they're posted in reply to. If previous replies to that post have spawned their own threads, the latest reply can be quite a long way down the page! But it'll be a different width (when you look at the whole thread) to earlier ones, so it's not too hard to work out what it's in reply to. :)

The little white arrow top right will also take you to the post that it is in reply to :)

Ooh, I never knew that!

The yellow one takes you to the last reply......I think :)

Thanks JG and Isabel,
Anyway my post is now stuck up the top somewhere among the posts from a few days ago! Who will read it now?! I'm so upset, it was a good point well put! (i'm being sarcastic btw! can you hear my whingy voice?!) Please could SOMEONE look at it and make a reply   pleeeeeeeeeeeeease :D

>Depends entirely what was agreed at time of sale.  It's easy to misinterpret only hearing one side, secondhand.,

The voice of reason Val ;-)

As far as I am concerned there shoudl be no charge at all,a s after all it only costs ghe breeder the price of a stamp to lift the endorsements.  the owner already has to pay out for the helath tests etc.

the purpose of the restrictions is surely proetection of the breeds and ones own lines integrity.

Isabel see my post on the addition of the line in the puppy contract.

don't think, as yet and I stand to be corrected on this, that a contract made at the time of sale, unless contracted by solicitors, signed and witnessed, would be legally binding anyway

Calmstorm don't mean to be picky but it is one of the reason I think people have to be careful what legal advice they give out even if the advice is their interpretation and that is what the think ..

For a contract to be valid NO solicitor HAS to be involved.  You enter into conracts everyday in life. Simple things like going for shopping

When you or anyonr buys a car on finance or takes out a personal loan does a solicitor witness it NO..

A contract is and can be valid when two people who can enter a contract make one , for the contract to be valid it has to be fair and equitable to both parties.

It seems the KC give a different story everytime someone calls them.

I know of a personal case myself them the contract was provided to the KC after death and the endorsement was lifted.

Contracts after death get a bit complicated but the KC would be wrong not to lift any endorsement providing that ALL the terms were met.

I don't know how often we read people saying " but I did and it had" when you look at it closely there is something over looked.   2 cases that look exactly the same are often not though the eyes of someone knowing what to look for.

What I would advice buyers to do it IF the breeder doesn't have any comments in the event of death is to ask them to put it in. A simple line is all it takes.

Thing is, things like buying on HP or any type of finance is already legally in place, and there is a set format for it. This is why I wonder if the contracts are actually worth the paper they are written on, I have been told not, but it would be a shame to have to spend a fortune going to court to find out! If you purchase on Hp/loan/mortgage etc they all have to be witnessed by someone with no connection with the company or you. I just think its a 'grey' area, and wonder if anyone here who actually is a solicitor or has acredited legal knowledge could give advice with this?

regarding the after death situation, if the Kc tell me one thing, and someone else another, who are we to believe? Its a bit to late after the breeder has died and the kc refuse to honour the terms of the contract. Perhaps it would be wise, as some sort of safeguide, to have something from the kc in writing to say what their position would be should this happen, before a puppy is purchased, that should in some way protect the purchaser. Having said that, they could then turn round and say they have changed their policy at a later date, you never know quite where you stand with the Kc.  I am thinking of protecting the rights of the purchaser here, it would be awful for someone to purchase an expensive puppy, do all the health checks, spend a small fortune at shows or whatever your interest is, only to find that the breeder has died and you cannot now breed from your dog because the restriction cannot be lifted. More clarity needs to be given to this.

Not sure what you mean by acredited legal knowledge.

Hp/loan/mortgage they all have to be witnessed by someone with no connection

From someone with legal knowledge this is incorrect.

Well, each time I have taken a mortgage or loan out, over the past 25 yrs, they have had to be witnessed by someone who is not a family member. I don't do HP, but imagined it to be the same. There are always clauses in the loan/mortgage applications quoting acts and sections, and you have a lot of paperwork to read in explanation of this. When a contract was made to split up property between my husband, brother-in-law, sister-in-law and myself, that had to be witnessed by someone not a family member also, and the contract had to be legally binding. As in, we couldn't make a contract up ourselves, despite there being total agreement on all sides as to what was to happen. I know we are talking land and a lot of money here, but dogs are property in the eyes of the law, so even though the amounts are far less does not the same apply?

Because this is making me wonder, I am going to write to the KC and ask them what the situation is regarding removal of restrictions and how they view contracts of sale. They must have some idea of how to deal with this, especially with their accredited breeder scheme which means more contracts will be made, and more restrictions being placed. I'm all in favour of protecting the puppy and the breeders name, but the purchaser has to be protected also. I will let you know what they say on their reply.

When I say accreditted legal knowledge, I mean either a solicitor or someone qualified in dealing with legal matters. rather than someone like me, who is speaking from what she has experienced, and some knowledge she has gathered over the years from personal items. Which is why I say I will always stand to be corrected if wrong. is that not what life is all about But Im not scaremongering, which is why having started this about restrictions etc I'm going to get the answer from the horses (or should that be dogs :rolleyes:) mouth!

SORRY it's a bit long ;-)

Well, each time I have taken a mortgage or loan out, over the past 25 yrs, they have had to be witnessed by someone who is not a family member.

This only happens when a loan is secured on a property or if it is perhaps that particular lenders policy. On a normal "NON-Secured" loan this doesn't happen.

When a contract was made to split up property between my husband, brother-in-law, sister-in-law and myself, that had to be witnessed by someone not a family member also, and the contract had to be legally binding.

Firstly it is not a solicitor that makes a contract binding , the contract itself in it's fair and equitable state makes it legal but there are certain things in life where there is written policy and legal guidelines that require them to be handled in a more secure way.

I take it this was an executry transaction?  This again is due to prevention of fraud under the execution of estate division covered by executry law. The reason this is done is so that a party can't pop out of the blue and claim they were actually a beneficiary and sue.

I know we are talking land and a lot of money here, but dogs are property in the eyes of the law, so even though the amounts are far less does not the same apply?

Perhaps this is where you are being confused what you were talking about was NOT a dead persons dog, which yes could be part of an estate and handled likewise , you were talking about how you get permission from a dead person to lift an endorsement, these are 2 totally different things because the dead person does not own the dog. They sold it.

Which is why I say I will always stand to be corrected if wrong. is that not what life is all about  But Im not scaremongering,

I personally didn't think you were and totally agree with you being caution. :-) I was merely pointing out that we have to be careful saying what we believe to be law when it isn't. I often say it on here.  You will hopefully notice I hae not actually said how I think it should be handled myself as I know that each case has to be looked and and sorted on it's own merit so often try not to say 100% what or how I think it should be handled.

I am very careful contractual with mosts things in life also BUT to a degree because I know that a lot of things is contracts can always be challenged so I rely on looking at a situation though a common sense approach and how I think the law certainly contract would apply to it. I think the Law generally is based on common sense to protect both parties.

I am going to write to the KC

May be worth while to satisfy you  , BUT I can bet your bottom dollar you would probably get 2 different replies on 2 different days.  The KC can be challenged on most things also.

Here is an example for you just from yesterday .

I was at Crufts yesterday and whilst waiting on a freind I had 30 mins to kill so I thought I would go register my puppies.

I asked the girl could I do it here she said, Yes.

Filled in all the forms etc.  Then she told me the bitch is endorsed. " of course she is" I said," I bred her and endorse them all, I will hand write a letter for you right now for you to lift it before doing the registration".

" Oh we can't do that , the endosement has to be lifted by letter".  She even went and verified this with someone else.

5 mins later the registered of they puppies took. One I was so tired I became a little less patient of stupid rules which in my opinion right there and then I could legally challenge. I didn't have to argue or be abrupt in any way to the girl I merely pointed out that I owned the bitch as the owner AND breeder if there are offering a registration system, I knew I was entitled to have it handled there. WHY because for them not to do it would be legally unfair regardless of their rules. 

I wrote the letter on a bit of paper, they gave me my endorsement removal letter right there and them and I registered the pups.

Now I wonder how many people the say that can't do that to day in day out at the KC stall and how often people accept this. :rolleyes: