our lab puppies when picked up- they do squeal, you take them out of their warm nest away from their littermates and they do squeal, its been the same in all litters. its not pain, its just them reacting to being moved. like when they stray/roll too far away from mum, they squeal then.

I wonder how many docked breeds are still used for working ?
Or, are they generally companion dogs.
A family friend is a gilly in the Highlands and his working dogs are labs (with tails intact :D)

Labs tails are thick and strong.  Many docked breeds are still used for working but townies don't realise that ;)  Even the police have had to have dogs' tails docked because they have been damaged in confined spaced.  What a lot of people don't realise because in fairness they don't know the breeds concerned, is that dogs bred for specific purposes exhibit the characteristics they were bred for whether they are worked or not.  That is why you have people on here talking about sight hounds chasing small dogs or dogs such as mine who sometimes run as if their noses are magnetically held to the ground :D

Man domesticated the wolf for hunting and protection. Surely in a evolutionary sense, dogs would have lost their tails if damage was detremental to its survival? Or was docking established by the breeder (not for working) but for conformation in the ring. I would be interested to learn if breeders of docked breeds just breed dogs for working purposes. Tail damage at home.....well 25 years ago I owned a dally who constantly hurt his tail on the radiators in the house but I have never seen a dally docked to ensure this damage did not occur :D

Some breeds still have duel purpose lines i.e. show and working

I would be very interested in the statistical information of how many of the docked breeds are atually used for working. All the docked dogs I know (& yes, I do live in a rural farming community) are not actually used for working. :D 

but why are labs tails thick & strong? because theyve been bred this way?

If docking does become banned,i wonder if Tails like Labradors will become desired in more breeds?& bred for?

Labs' tails are that way because they were originally used almost entirely for retrieving from water (boats' mooring ropes, etc) and needed a thick, strong tail as a rudder when swimming. It would be impossible to get a tail like that in other breeds without adding the gene for it - which would mean crossbreeding - with all the unpredictability that goes with it. :(

what about what they did in the boxers, (Using corgis) to get the bobtail gene?

i guess what im saying ,is IF docking is banned.The breed standard for tails should be seriously thought about.(for working dogs who may damage their tails working)

& if lines/breeds (with KC permission) need to be added carefully then that should be considered,wether it be for a natural Bob & a stronger tail

I think I made that point earlier.  Most well bred dogs exhibit the same traits as an enthusiastic amateur as their working brothers or even cousins if the breed has split a little along working and showing lines.

I'm feeling a bit like Polly the Parrot myself

Me too, but where is your evidence?

I am enjoying this debate and I am trying to understand the reasons that tail docking should be continued. But at the moment I can find no logical reason for this to do so. Damage to areas of a dogs body within the home to me is not a resaon and to say that they are bred for the conformation of working, when thay are not worked, is also not logical to me. If working dogs have problems with tails, then let the breeders of unworking dogs leave the tails intact. I am not being arguementative, I am just trying to understand the reasonings behind this debate. :D

Me too Tippytoes.

I have just read about the Swedish study - I like to think I am unbiased :), but unfortunately it was not a very scientific study after all: 

It relied on breeders to report on the tail injuries (quite subjective),

Breeders who usually docked and then had legislation passed against them doing so are not the most unbiased sample to use,

I find it hard to believe that EVERY breeder stayed in contact with EVERY purchaser - so the figures don't seem that reliable IMO,

The dogs whos tails were injured were still worked in most cases (which prevented healing)

Even after all this, only I think 7 dogs required tail amputation of the 50 litters - and I personally feel that some of these may have been due to the fact that the owner would then end up with a tradtionally 'docked' appearance.

Still haven't seen any EVIDENCE pro docking.

>If working dogs have problems with tails, then let the breeders of unworking dogs leave the tails intact.

That's the crux of the matter, Tippytoes. Who's to say which dogs will be worked and which won't? And it's either inhumane for all or for none.

>Who's to say which dogs will be worked and which won't?

Not only that non working dogs of many breeds behave in the same way on the same terrain as the workers do.

>Damage to areas of a dogs body within the home to me is not a resaon and to say that they are bred for the conformation of working, when thay are not worked, is also not logical to me.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. You've not read the links properly.

>If working dogs have problems with tails, then let the breeders of unworking dogs leave the tails intact

If you read the links again I have explained this point already :)

If docking is so important for the welfare of the animal, why are there over 500 vets (VAD) against the proceedure?

But surely the main consideration is "does docking hurt the puppies?"?  If it doesnt, then docking or not is down to personal preference, whether the dog works or not. I really cant see that debating on what may or may not happen to the dog later in life has anything to do with the crux of the matter. As I said previously, if it could be proved that the actual process causes pain, I would not dock. I prefer the look of my breed with a docked tail - if it doesnt hurt the puppy, why should I have puppies that in my opinion do not look as good as they could?   

Cherlys Polly Parrot comment, Alexanders, was in response to my second post stating that breeds behave the same way whether they are working or not :)  I have now said it a third time in another part of the thread :D I don't have any evidence other than owning these sorts of dogs. 

As this thread is now going round in circles and has moved away from the original question, I am locking it until I get time to branch it. Please be patient and do not start another thread on this topic. Tkank you :)