Hi, I have recently been to the vets and he thinks that my boxer is definately pregnant. He said that he could feel at least four pups. So now I know she probably is pregnant I am now thinking about their future ie:- docking and dew clawing. He said that he does not dock but he recommends dew clawing. My other half wants to have them docked but I am not so sure. He only wants them docked as he remembers a boxer from his childhood that had major problems with its tail. I am trying to inform myself with as much information as possible before we decide so I just wondered what you all think. Thanks

Asking this question on here will instigate a pro-docking vs anti-docking heated debate of which there have been numerous in the recent past.  If you put the word docking into the search at the top you will see these for yourself.

I am pro-docking for the breed that I have which is not Boxer.  I think before you come to a decision you should look into the pros and cons of docking or not docking your particular breed and not be swayed by emotive arguments.

Hopefully there will be breeders of Boxers that will log on today.  Good luck.

Lottie

I am pro-docking, but again don't have boxers.  I have seen, first hand, tail damage caused to short-haired dogs which are not docked and it's horrendous.  It is a major procedure for an adult dog to have the tail docked, but a small, painless procedure for a puppy.

If you do want to dock and your own vet won't dock, please join the CDB (Council for Docked Breeds).  This organisation will then send you a list of vets in your area who do dock.  Vets are very quiet about the fact that they dock, if they do, because they don't want anti-docking people to find out that they are docking.  Therefore, going through the CDB is probably the only/best way to get in contact with them, and they will trust you if you approach them via this organisation.

www.cdb.org

Hiya, I don't agree with tail docking, not too sure about working dogs eg spaniels etc I don't know enough about their lifestyle to have an opinion, but i definitely think your average pet shouldn't be docked.  Some probably do suffer with tail damage but this could happen to any breed long or shorthaird and whether its a docked breed or not.  I do agree with taking the dew claws off though as they can easliy get ripped out or get caught in things.

Here is a link http://www.scottvet.co.uk/tailwag/ .

Good luck with the puppys :)

I promised myself that I wouldnt get drawn in on this, but I cant help myself as I must ask Storm why it is okay for some dogs but not others? If she thinks it hurts "pets" why wouldnt it hurt working dogs?

have you got homes ready for these pups? How easy is it to sell un-docked Boxers? I have spaniels - they dont work but do enjoy rushing through hedges with tails going, i dread to think whay damage would be done to their tails if left on as they wag so much.

I have homes for two of them as members of the family want them and they are happy to go with what ever I decide. I do think it will be harder to sell undocked boxers but only because people expect them to be docked without even knowing why it is done. I expect people to want them as pets and as a family member tails or not but i would like to think that maybe people are a little more aware about tail docking now. Grateful if anybody has any experience of this for your help.

Hi Lottieloulou

>Grateful if anybody has any experience of this for your help.

Experience of what exactly? Having to decide whether to dock or not? Having a docked dog? Injuries?

Experience of selling the pups docked or not and whether they believe people would rather tails were docked.

with my schnauzers i did ask a few of the buyers and they all wanted docked as i was willing not to do it. so we did it. the docking is nothing- they slip over an elastic band which the puppy doesnt feel and the tail drops off a few days later. dew claws which i think need doing because they do get torn if left on, are cut off with scissors and the puppies screamed the place down (mum was removed from the house). I really think dew claws should be done under local anaesthetic and not sure uf your vet would do it? Ask him if he would use a local?

I always find it amazing when people don't want to dock on the basis that it causes the puppy pain, but then they are prepared to remove dew claws - when everyone I've spoken to agrees that removing dew claws causes far more pain than removing the tail!!

What age were your pups when the dew claws were done? I've never had an extreme reaction to dew claw removal. The pups squeak when they are held firmly even before the snip, but as soon as it is done they are back to sleeping/feeding immediatially. I don't remove the bitch when it is done because I think it would stress her more to hear the pups without being able to see what is happening. As a result we usually have a big nose inserted into proceedings for the first couple of pups, but after that mum seems to realise that nothing terrible is going on.

I thought it was illegal for anyone other than a Vet to dock tails??:rolleyes:

Hi

When I use to breed many years ago we use to take the pups to the local vet no problems and have the tails and dew claws cut. Always took the bitch and never had any problems with the pups or the bitch. Didnt find the pups cried anymore with the dew claws than the tails. I think if anything they were more annoyed at being handled than the actuall process. This vet was very experienced to.

Came back into breeding about 10 years later and what a difference. Finding a vet was a nightmare. My old one had retired. I joined the Council of Docked breeds and was given a list of vets in my area. One was actually my own surgery, I had asked them when I was in with the bitch getting her booster prior to mating and they said no didnt do it. When I phoned them saying I had got there number from the council they said they only do working spaniels. I have a Jack Russel. I know they also do show spaniels but they wouldnt admit to that either. The only other person was about a 2 hour drive from me. I did arrange to go and see them and they were happy to do the tails for me but when the pups were born I couldnt for various reasons get them there within the time limit so they had to go undocked. I also asked the studs owner whos she used and phoned her vet. She wouldnt do them as she would only do working terriers. I said they were able to work as the stud was a working dog but that was not good enough. I had to have the homes lined up and they had to be proper working homes ie a gamekeeper and the like. And none were to go as pets. I wasnt going to agree to this as first and formost my pups are pets and if they are able to work to that is a added benifit.

That litter went undocked. I did sell them but could of sold them 10 times over if they had been docked. I have to admit I didnt like the pups with tails and if i had gone to see the litter I really dont think I would of brought one. I get photos from the new owners, they are bonnie dogs now apart from the tails. It is probabley just me but I do hate seeing a jack russel with a tail.

This time I have I have found a vet closer to me who is willing to do them and all going well I will be able to have this litter docked.

I keep getting told the public do not want docked dogs, this mostly comes from the rescues, and pet owners who have no idea. They have been told it is barbaric and seen as a mutilation. I remind them that there is now way I would put  my pups through anything I thought would hurt them.

Sorry getting on soap box now.

Wendy

It is. Where did I suggest anything else?

my pups were 3 days when dew claws done and cried for a few hours afterwards- after that they were fine again

I'm really surprised at that. I have the dew claws off a bit earlier at 48 hours and always have the impression that the restraint bothers them much more than the snip. I've never had a pup cry at all once it was put back in the whelping box. Thay just go back to feeding and sleeping.

perhaps its the extra day then- the vet wouldnt do it till the third day!

I've never waited until the third day, so maybe it is.

Not YOU, but someone else was talking about how they 'band' the tails to dock them...

Yes - that's one of the methods vets ('they') use to dock them.

No experience of breeding or docking, but I would ask the waiting owners.  My dobe is docked, he was as per standard at 3 days old but wasn't advertised anywhere at all until he was 6 weeks - I would give anything for him to have a tail, and had I had the choice he would still have his.

Like I said Fillis,  I don't know enough about a working dog's i.e. (a litter of puppies specifically produced for working) lifestyle and injuries it might sustain whilst working, I didn't say it was ok to dock working dogs just that I didn't know enough to commet.   I do however know about a pet dogs lifestyle and IMO that doesn't require a docked tail.

Ooh was going to try and leave this thread alone after initial post but can't :rolleyes:

>I do however know about a pet dogs lifestyle and IMO that doesn't require a docked tail.

But what do you know about a dog from a working breed living a pet dog's lifestyle?

I know that the ones I know are absolutely fine with their tails left on.

>I know that the ones I know are absolutely fine with their tails left on.

How many and what breeds are they, if you don't mind telling?

A cocker, 2 springers and 2 dobermanns and a rottweiller.

It's difficult to make judgements isn't it when you know so few individuals of traditionally docked breeds?  The problem in assessing the necessity to continue to dock traditionally docked breeds lies with the fact that so many are still docked. I think it is a pity that an enforced ban will likely go ahead without proper investigation into the consequences to the breeds concerned.

I've also bred a litter of 10 Dobermanns 9 of which were docked and I think it was a complete waste of time and looking back imo there was absolutely no need for it.  I would never do it again, most of the owners weren't bothered whether they were docked or not.  The undocked one has never suffered injury and is now nearly 8. 

No, I don't really think its difficult to make judgements, the OP was asking the question whether or not she should dock her boxers and I don't think she should. 

Seeing the tail damage on a pet dog the same breed of mine was an eye-opener for me not least because I was amazed at how finely the tail tapered off.  This particular dog only has to catch a door frame for the wound to open which apparently is often.  You need to look at each breed when arguing the cruelty angle, IMO it is cruel not to dock this breed. How can anyone think that a blanket ban across all breeds is a good thing without considering the negative consequences to the poor dogs whose tails have been neglected in the selection process?  It's nonsense.

It's also nonsense IMO to argue that they need their tails for communicaiton.  What about natural bobtails?  What about docked dogs who attack friendly full tailed dogs?  It was mentioned in another thread that CKS can't lift their tails and yet how many aggressive dogs of that breed does anyone know or how often do they get attacked?

Do you mean Cavaliers by 'CKS' Cheryl? I know lots of dogs who fly their tails high, either in the ring (when it's bad) or just out in the park. My own dog has a correct tailset and does not fly it in the ring, but if he meets an unknown dog in the park he sticks it up nearly vertically and it curls right back over his back!! So Cavs definitely can lift their tails! :-)

Ok Just something I remembered seeing on a previous post, must have got it wrong then :rolleyes:  I think communication via body language is more complicated than just watching the tail.  My dog will go hammer and tongs with her hackles up and still wag her tail She doesn't like any dog approaching her with long swishing tail or otherwise.  I don't think you can just take the tail in isolation because the dog certainly doesn't seem to besides which prior socialisation plays a big part too.

A friend of mine once told me the tail wagging is more a sign of uncertainty than happiness, don't know what others think of this idea?

What breed of dog are you talking about?  Was it just this particular dog you've seen injury on or is it standard in your breed of dogs that the ones left undocked to have injuries to their tall? 

>What breed of dog are you talking about?  Was it just this particular dog you've seen injury on or is it standard in your breed of dogs that the ones left undocked to have injuries to their tall? 

This is a catch 22.  The problem here as I see it (Talking about traditionally docked breeds only) is that most are still docked.  This means that you only have a very few number of undocked dogs to use as examples.  Because there are more docked dogs than undocked dogs in this minority of traditionally docked breeds it is difficult to run comparisons.  There are people who have undocked dogs who report no problems whatsoever and then the supporters of anti-docking use those as examples for not docking.  Only when a ban is enforced can the effects be compared, unfortunately by then many dogs will probably be suffering.  Unlike newborn puppies who have their tails docked with little discomfort for a fraction of time, older dogs run the risk of ongoing painful tail damage (possbily months while owners and vets attempt to help it heal) leading to possible amputation, infection etc etc. 

http://www.cdb.org/sweden.htm

The dog that I know with tail damage is a GSP

Yes I see the point but maybe in order to get some idea about injuries it might help to compare a docked breed to anoter breed similar in build and length of hair etc.   Just a quick example as I'm in work atm bullmastiffs who are undocked compared to rottweillers, or german pointers compared with english pointers.

If you compare between breeds you are not comparing like with like.  GSPs have very noticable differences in personalities and working characteristics compared to the other breeds you mention.  The type of work a dog has been bred for can be seen in their behaviour so whether or not they actually work makes no difference to their behaviour as a pet.  For example, a GSP will still go bananas hunting, leaping and flushing in the undergrowth at a manic pace as it comes naturally to them and they thoroughly enjoy it.  Great fun to watch too :D

I don't mean compare a GSP with a rottie.  A German Pointer is docked where an English pointer isn't, from what I've read both are bred for similar purposes, so surely it would be a reasonble comparison to make between the two as to how often injuries occur?  Im sure there are other examples of breeds where comparisons can be made perhaps giving a clearer picture whether its worth docking or not.  Do you not think?

"A German Pointer is docked where an English pointer isn't, from what I've read both are bred for similar purposes, so surely it would be a reasonble comparison to make between the two as to how often injuries occur?"

Similar, but not the same. A lot rests on tail action. Both breeds have different tail actions. A pointer on point will hold its tail still. A german pointer (depending on quarry) will move its tail.  A Pointers job of work is out in the open eg: moors. Not much to damage a tail on a pointer out in the open. A German Pointer works a different terrain with varying types of cover. It is required to hunt all cover and produce game eg: enter cover. If you worked German Pointers on open ground they would probably not require docking to save injury. If you work a Pointer on the same terrain that you work a German Pointer, then you would end up docking. Horse for courses :)

>A German Pointer is docked where an English pointer isn't, from what I've read both are bred for similar purposes, so surely it would be a reasonble comparison to make between the two as to how often injuries occur?

I can't say whether it would be fair comparison or not without knowing what the Pointer's characteristics are like.  Yes, they are bred for the same purpose but the GSP really thinks it's Peter Pan, my dog is 2 yrs and still acts like a puppy. She is just a pet but she does everything and I mean everything from a sprint start and charges everywhere.  When I let her out into our boring garden she launches herself through the doors enthusiastically, dives into the Leylandii and you can hear her crashing about between the Leylandii and wooden fence. You have to see them in action to realise that it is no exaggeration that their tails wag furiously 99% of the time they are not sitting or sleeping.  I read on one breeder's page that she had never met a miserable GSP and I can well believe it.  Other GSP owners that I have had contact with say the same.  I don't think you can take the dog's characteristics out of context which is why I think you have to look at each breed individually when arguing the tail damage point.

The link I posted is more relevant IMO as it does look at traditionally docked breed in a country that has banned docking.  Do you not think it is a compelling argument?

I haven't had a chance to look at the link yet, but will do when I get home.

Actually, I would disagree the English pointer and the GSP are bred for the same purpose.  The English pointer is bred to cover a much wider area and is intended to be worked on largely open ground.  The GSP on the other hand is bred to range slightly less and also to enter thick cover when asked to, to flush out game. 

As such, the GSP will enter dense thorns, thickets, nettles - the heaviest cover you can think of - perhaps not as readily or happily as a spaniel would, but the GSP is still supposed to get in there.  The English pointer is built for speed and grace over long distances of open ground, by comparison.  It's easy to see why a GSP is docked and an English pointer isn't, when you think of it like this.

Simply.........

The (English) Pointer points - thats it.

The German Shorthaired/Wirehaired Pointers, Hungarian/Wire Haired Viszla's, Weimaraner, Brittany, Bracco Italiano, Italian Spinone are ALL required to HUNT, POINT & RETRIEVE which means they have to hunt through dense undergrowth making the tail more susceptible to damage.  

The breed I own - Large Munsterlander - is occasionally 'tipped' by some breeders and having had 2 of my own bred bitches break open the ends of their tails, I can see the logic in this.  Its the same case for the German Longhaired Pointer.

I've just sat down and had a look at that link, although it does make intesting reading, it seems to confirm my original point which was

I don't agree with tail docking, not too sure about working dogs eg spaniels etc I don't know enough about their lifestyle to have an opinion, but i definitely think your average pet shouldn't be docked. 

Looking at the information they provided most of the injuries of undocked working dogs (in this case GSPs) occur whilst out hunting and not on your average walk...

The tail injuries occur mainly during hunting. The injuries are then maintained during further hunting and also in the home. During 1991 approximately 15 dogs had injured their tails at home. Some of the sledding dogs received tail injuries whilst being trained.

Its not really clear out of how many dogs its based on but presumably the 15 dogs that damaged their tails at home were out of the 299 dogs that were included in the study.  IMO if you took a sample of 299 of any medium-large sized breed of dog you would find tail injuries not far off that figure i.e in the case of the curly coated retriever that split her tail just by wagging it and the mongeral who split it on the wall of his kennel.  I'm not really that sure what point they were trying to make by including the mongeral and the curly coated, apart from the fact that all dogs have the potential to damaging their tails.  Also there were a quite a few letters from owners of traditionally undocked breeds saying they suffered with exactly the same kind of tail injuries as the traditionally docked breeds in every day life which was my second point in my OP.

Some probably do suffer with tail damage but this could happen to any breed long or shorthaird and whether its a docked breed or not

It kind of brings me back to what I've said previously, although I've learned a bit about injuries in dogs bred for working.  I still don't feel comfortable about commenting on a working dogs lifestyle as its something I know very little about.

The GSP I know with a split tail is a pet. 

I'm not saying that pet dogs don't damage their tails, its obvious a lot of breeds do, but according to that report most of the damage occurs while they are out working. 

Have to admit only skimmed report myself as trying to do some work at same time.  Numbers in report is referring to litters not individual dogs at the start.  Longitudinal study so was able to look at damage occuring over dogs' lives.  Conclusion was that 3rd of GSPs end up with tail damage to lesser or greater extent.  Refers to damage mostly occuring during hunting but doesn't say how the sample was split between pet and working homes.  As it is a Swedish study you would have to look at cultural differences in general Swedish population re their relationship to dogs, i.e. this country breeds working and show traits into the GSPs.  Do Swedes do the same? In other words are GSPs bred specially for mostly working homes or pet homes?

Oh the joys of internet at work :D I don't know anything about the Swedes :) The way I read it, or as the conclusion was put forward, was most of the dogs were used for hunting as it goes on to make points about the severity of the injuries are related to how they are worked and the type of the terrain etc.  If the report was a bit more specific it would be more useful and helpful to their cause, which presumably is to try and get the ban lifted.  Do you get working and show dogs from the same litter in this country?

I think GSPs are one of the few breeds that are carefully bred to include both show and working traits.  You can have have a show ch that is also a work ch.   My dog is just a loony tune :D  At 8 weeks old she was standing on point to ...... bugs :D I was gobsmacked, standing with one paw lifted it was lovely.  Unfortunately she rarely does that now because I didn't take her to HPR training, I wish I had. :rolleyes:

You have to see them in action to appreciate how they can stand perfectly still with their eye on prey and then just dive into undergrowth, no matter how dense it is. Then all you might hear is the dog crashing through and squirrels running up trees or pheasants/pidgeons flying up.  As an untrained (to work) dog I wouldn't be surprised if she would be just as prone to tail damage as a trained dog.

Personlly I wouldnt dock. I wouldnt remove the dew claws either.
But I did grow up in  a country where tail and ear docking, and dew claw removal is illegal.