After 30 years I think I have a problem with regards to docking!  Not the "is it right or wrong for the dog" but the "is it down to personal preference" arguement.
My mother used to show and breed Yorkshire Terriers and we had/have a very capable vet who used to dock and do dew claws (don't know if he still does).  I can remember being told to take the bitch to another room (upstairs) while they were docked.  I could still hear them yelping from up there - the bitch was hugely distressed. 
I've never had a breed which is customarilly docked and I've left all mine with dew claws on and never had a problem (they do have tight dew claws though not wobbley ones).
I can understand the working side and the tail damage side.  One thing I will say though - I've seen some very nasty tail damage over the years - twice on danes (never docked), once on a lab (never docked), three times on english pointers (never docked)...once on a CKCS (never docked)...twice on Hamiltonstovare (never docked) and several times on Pharaoh Hounds (never docked).  The arguement for docking to prevent damage I can see - IF it applies to all breeds -  but it doesn't.  Every time the issue of docking arises people come up with the damage prevention thing (not talking about working dogs here).  Unless ALL dogs are docked to prevent damage it doesn't hold water.  I do understand that some breeds are more prone to damage than others because of the constant tail movement/environment they work in.
I wish people would be more open and honest and just say they prefer the look of them docked so lop their tails off because of that.  But a lot of them come out with every emotive arguement they can think of. 
I think I'm at the point where I believe that IF they are working dogs (and not just customarilly docked working breeds) then I say go for it - but not just for the look of the animal.

But surely, if you think its cruel then no dog should be docked. The argument for working dogs to be docked is ill conceived - how can anyone tell from a 3 day old litter of puppies - even from working stock, which ones will make workers? If the whole litter is docked does this mean that if the breeder does not find a working home for the pup and it is actually used for working that the breeder will be breaking the law?

I've held pups whilst they were being docked and nursed a dog after amputation of the tail.  I own spaniels and my guess would be that boxers won't cover the deep undergrowth that springers and cockers do, especially ones who will spend best part of their lives working.

I wouldn't own a spaniel with a tail again and I wouldn't consider a boxer, dobe, poodle, etc without one!

I can't share them as I am not allowed to, but I have on my computer 80 copies of veterinary letters/certificates regarding tail injuries in Boxers -all were ones that needed vet treatment, several needed amputation. Some of these dogs were described as even being scared of wagging their tails as they were so used to injuring them whilst hitting them against door frames, furniture etc.

Exactly Fillis - thats the problem.  It wasn't something I was suggesting it was just an understanding of the problem faced.   I think it's going to be taken out of people's hands anyway as I'm sure that soon it will be illegal - vet or not. 

and from what my vet was telling me, it will continue, vet or not.

But the point is, that if breeders of "working" dogs are allowed to have them docked, what evidence will there be that a dog actually works - surely it has to be all or nothing to stand a chance of being enforced. Then, of course, we have the problem that if docking is still legal in Ireland, who is to say where the puppy was docked?

You can't tell at birth whether a dog will go to a working home or not so the whole litter is docked to ensure dog is suitable to both type of homes.  I don't agree with the argument of only docking the working dogs anyway.  IMO the breed characteristics that make the dog prone to tail damage at work is still prevalent in the dog that goes to a pet home.  I see the characteristics of my dog's breed clearly everytime we go out.

I also wasn't going to get drawn into this debate :rolleyes: But seeing as I am vehemently opposed to docking any, whether working, pet or show I am going to say I definately do not agree with it.
I don't understand how people, who say they 'Love dogs' can play at being a God and say which should and which should not have tails. all dogs IMO all should be left as nature intended. And yes it is painful for the puppy to have its tail chopped off. don't let anyone try and say it isn't. I've been there, many years ago when people didn't know any better, and had first hand experience, and it's not pleasant
There are many breeds as already stated that can and do damge their tails regardless whether or not they work. By work I assume we mean gundogs in the field, and not obedience, security etc.
Regardless of working, dogs need their tails for body language. I have owned a large docked breed, out of Hobsons Choice, who was very friendly to other dogs but, because he didn't have a tail to let other dogs see he wasn't a threat, he often got attacked for no other reason than he was large and they couldn't see his stump wagging!! I have also owned in the past very large breeds who have very long tails and yes, they can damage them. Usually when greeting you coming in, and they get banged on the edge of a door or similar. This can usually be easily remedied by training the dog to sit when you come in. As we had one who banged her tail, I found this was the best precaution to take. But there is no way ANYONE in the breed would have suggested they all had to be docked because they were a danger to their tails.
Sorry to go, but I feel very strongly on this matter being a True Dog Lover

Im not for or against particularly, but i know  that there are vets out there that dock properly- use lignol a local anaesthetic and stitch up the skin over the tail end, so it heals lovely and very neatly.
ive seen corgi's with tails and i just dont recognise them- i think they are too heavy for their bodies and little legs, but i dont know about whether its right or not, but i do know that people (vets) do these days do it properly.

i do think dew claws should be removed-ive seen some horrid injuries and i would choose to remove these if i bred a litter of whippets for example..

(my dog's tail was 'chopped' off in one single blow as she was bred by a neglectful person- but i dont feel sorry for her, as at that age-yes it would of hurt, but after a day or so- she would have forgotten about it)

>I don't understand how people, who say they 'Love dogs' can play at being a God and say which should and which should not have tails. all dogs IMO all should be left as nature intended.

As wolves?  Let's face it if dogs had been left as nature intended we wouldn't have the wonderful variety of breeds that we have today.  It is because of selective breeding that we have working dogs with tails that don't suit the conditions they work under and so are docked.  IMO it is cruel not to dock them.  It's all very well training them to sit when you enter the house but what about when they enter the hedgerows, thick brambles, closely growing young saplings etc etc or should we keep curtail their natural exuberance and keep them on leads?

If we left dogs as nature intended, bulldogs and other similar breeds would die at birth and cease to exist - all are born by C-section.

I fail to see why that is ethically acceptable but docking is not?? 

The breeds you mention are a product of genetic intervention. The human being has a lot of soul searching when breeds are developed without capacity for whelping without surgery. :)

The breeds you mention are a product of genetic intervention

Every pedigree breed is the result of genetic intervention on the part of man as are domesticated cows, sheep, horses etc.     So what do we do, let them disperse and interbreed so that in a hundred years or so, all dog will resemble the pariah's?

NO. The point I was making was that, when body conformation is adapted to create certain body type for breeds, reproducton was not taken into consideration. If a breeder had a bitch with a disorder that would not allow her to whelp without a c section, would they breed from her? It is the same as some short snouted breeds that have been interfered with and the result is breathing disorders.

anndee
yes it would be painful im sure for a puppy to have its tail 'chopped off' but how many times do i have to say the same thing over again? they dont chop them off they BAND them!

I have heard that a lot of vets don't band and prefer to cut the tails off.  Hasving seen the video of banding a boxer litter in the whelping box with th3eir dam on the CDB site I really can't see what the hoo ha is about re docking being painful.  I also don't understand why some breeders adn vets chose to cut them off.

well i can tell you- that some people DO! i know that my dogs tail was chopped with a cleaver type knife- as her past bad owners had witnessed the horrible events when they were 'done' at the farm, i think they burn/seal the end with some powder- cant remember the name of it.
my current vet has had a look at the end and says that looks right what ive been told.

I can assure you, chrisjack, that vets don't use cleavers to dock tails.

not vets jg- she was bred by an old farmer, i know not all farmers do this- im just saying this farmer must have.
gosh- i know vets wouldnt! ;)

I don't think you will find anyone defending careless, inhuman docking done by the ignorant :(

my vet dosent band.

Cheryl - As do I - I have terriers, and know that if they get on the scent of anything they would "go to ground" and are daft enough to get stuck. The instinct remains, whether they are actively worked or not. At present, the proposals are so vague it just makes a total farce of the whole thing - I dare say I could have a litter docked just by saying I was keeping one to work.

Anndee - for everyone who has been there and says it causes pain, there is one who has been there and says it doesnt :D For the record, I am pro - but I still maintain if there has to be a ban there should be no exceptions - and anyone who says they dont agree with it docking apart from working stock is imo hypocrytical.

All i can say is role on the new legislation that will ban docking!  About time it was banned

But it wont - that is the whole point as it is selective!

ummm we shall see....... it wont be long before there is an outright ban even if this time its too selective.....

You may be right but it would be a blow for the actual welfare of dogs :(

And of course the reason it is selective is so that the ones who can continue to dock will not make too much of a fuss - therefore making the antis seem the majority. What a pity so much effort has been put into the docking ban when puppy farmers are free to continue their practices  - which are abhorrent to everyone involved with dogs 

Docking in the first couple of days before the nervous system is fully developed does not affect the puppy at the time particularly.  They cry when dew claws are removed, but when the vet slides a band over the tail they really don't notice it.  They carry on feeding without missing a beat.  There is no faltering in weight gain.  A short, fine coated dog (like a boxer) is at much greater risk of damaging the tail than say a labrador with a thicker coat - especially with the enthusiasm with which most boxers wag their tails.  I have known several people who had boxers with their tails that had to have them docked in later life through damage (hitting against doorframes and constantly bleeding etc).  In one case, after treating the bitch for months for damage and bleeding, the vet refused to dock the tail to the customary length because it would be "cosmetic", so he just took the most damaged bit off the end.  A few months later the end of the remainder had to be removed, and then he had to dock to the usual length.  Result, a docked boxer, two anaesthetics and a tidy sum for the vet.

I really fail to understand how it is ok for lambs, for example, to be docked (and they are born with a fully developed nervous sytem, so really feel it), yet puppies cannot.  We do it hygenically, we don't walk around muddy fields with a pocketful of elastic bands, yet because dogs are classed as pets it is somehow assumed that they feel pain and farm animals don't.  This is obviously rubbish.  So what is the reason for it being Ok for farm animals and not for dogs?  Could it, just could it, be that vets won't upset farmers because they are BIG EARNERS for them.

Anyway, I know everyone has their own views and whatever anyone on here says they won't change them.  If docking is banned, then I really think the only way to preserve the boxer in the form it has been for over 100 years is going to be to breed into the bobtail line of boxers.

we would all soon get used to seeing dogs with tails. i have seen a few boxers with tails, they look beautiful. hope for a ban. sorry for people who dont agree, time will tell if it works out for the dogs. shame they cant tell us. not sure they would want it.

It seems to me that the anti-docking people think that those supporting docking are doing it purely for aesthetics.  Whilst this is probably true for a percentage this is not true for everyone.  My concern is for the welfare of dogs and IMO it is irresponsible to put in place a ban without carefully considering the implications for each breed concerned. It makes me cross that the ban seems to be to satisfy the anti-dockers who think that the tail is more important than the overall welfare.  It is like saying I prefer to see the b*lls swinging underneath the dog and how cruel to chop them off, let's campaign for anti-castration!

Fillis. Try to read my post again and you will see that I oppose tail docking, vehemently. Nowhere does it make exception for working dogs. I believe NO dog should be docked, working or otherwise. I am not a hypocrite, I act on my beliefs, so please don't call me one.

So, once docking is banned, can we expect to see a ban on circumcision of baby boys???

It's a logcal follow on, IMO

Or dehorning of cows?   Routine castration of horses/cows out in the field etc.?  Debeaking of chickens?   Ear tagging?

So, once docking is banned, can we expect to see a ban on circumcision of baby boys???

We can only hope! I have never understood the circumcision thing,i think it's a disgusting practice to do to your own child,and for no good reason that i can come up with

Usually religious so need to tread carefully on that one.

Agree. Can we keep this thread on topic please eg: the docking of animals

Personally I think you should have thought about docking BEFORE you mated your bitch.  I breed Dobermanns and I am not going to get involved in a debate.  It has to be your decision.

Contact the Council of Docked Breeds

http://www.cdb.org/

There is a video on their website showing a litter being docked.  If you do decide to have to litter docked.  DO NOT let the vet CUT their tails off, ensure they are banded as per the video.

Also contact the Anti Docking Alliance

http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/

Get as much information as you can from BOTH places and then make your decision.

I know i said I wasnt going to get involved but..... :-)

It seems to me that most people who are anti docking THINK the tails are CUT off.  If this were the case then yes docking should be banned.  BUT it is not the case, the prefered method is banding which does not cause any distress. 

And why of why vets will agree to remove dew claws and wont dock I will never understand as the puppies really cry when these are removed.  It just seems a bit hipocritical to me.

There are more important issues in the dog world at present that need attention, such as back yard breeders, puppy farmers, THESE are the things that should be banned now and then maybe concentrate on the docking issue.

I have had litters done by both methods, more latterly cutting by a CDB vet, neither method caused any problems at all to the puppies.  This particular vet is very highly thought of in my breed with a great deal of experience and I book him to travel 1 1/2 hours to my house. I have no doubt he uses the method he regards as clinically sound.

I don't really want to join the debate about whether docking is right or wrong (I disagree with it though), However, I do think that the people who say that the puppies do not feel pain when their tail is docked or their dewclaws are removed would do well to remember that years ago before we knew better, we used to operate on human babies with no anaesthetic as we believed they felt no pain.

Pain is such an individual experience how can anyone say how much pain another being - animal or human - feels - how arrogant I think!

I don't think anybody thought babies did not feel pain they just did not regard it as something that mattered too much as they would forget.  Babies are born after 9 months gestation, well developed with hearing, sight etc.  Puppies are born at just 9 weeks gestation. Born the minute they can survive to enable the mother to be able to look after her own needs and safety as soon as possible all they have is all they need ie to be able to find their mother by heat, they have no hearing, no sight and no completed spinal column into the tail.

I had a puppy docked a few years ago by a vet and he cut the tail off - never again!!!!!  It is disgusting, the puppy screamed and the tail never healed properly and the bitch is now two and her tail looks terrible.

If I had a choice between docking (by cutting it off) or leaving a tail on then I would do the latter.  Although I am pro docking (banding method) I would NEVER EVER let a vet cut a tail off one of my puppies again.  I found it very upsetting and still havent forgiven myself. :-(

Part of the problem was that, because experienced breeders used to be allowed to do it themselves, vets didn't get a lot of practice at it, so when the breeders' ban first came in many vets were themselves only amateurs at it. :(

He sounds a very poor clinician.  My vet is very experienced, he feels very strongly about docking as a welfare issue and therefore takes on a lot of this work.  I have also seen very experienced breeders use this method back in the old days and again no problems at all. 

Hi Isabel,

Either way it has put me off cutting - I would never put my puppies or myself through that again. 

 

Fair enough :)  If you had a traumatic experience I can understand you feeling that way and of course because there is another method to choose from it makes sense for you to opt for it.  But for me, having found an excellent clinician, I will continue to use a quick an effective method that I have found very satisfactory and perhaps the lesson here is ensure you use an experienced vet.
What age were your puppies at the time and are they a breed with a particularly thick tail?

The puppy was 3 days old - Dobermann

:-)

the arguement that dogs that work thick cover or 'go to ground' should continue to be docked does on the face of it seem to have some justification except that there are NO wild canids - irrespective of their natural habitat - that naturally have a short or bob tail - in fact the fox who spends almost all of it's life in thick cover and lives underground has a full thick bushy tail. If it is true that a tail is likely to be a handicap in that kind of environment surely they would have evolved a different type of tail ?.

Tail docking was historically done to avoid the dog tax , which was exempt for working dogs and these were identified by having part of their tails docked - this became a fashion amongst other breeds in this country ( which is why so many docked breeds are traditional British ones and why the hound/terrier/gundog group has so many docked breeds). We have become so used to the 'look' of a docked outline in these breeds that it seems unacceptable for many breeders and owners to view them the same way with their tails left on.

My feeling is that docking will be banned sooner rather than later and that those breeds affected need to be breeding for an acceptable and aestheticaly pleasing tail shape, length and set rather than playing King Canute  with the tide of popular opinion on this issue. ;)