True, yes mine do all have the same markings.  However, some are smaller than others, some are chunkier, some have bigger paws, ears and so on. 

I was very lucky with my dogs - I asked my colleagues at work how you go about finding a puppy and they immediately said to get puppy packs from the KC - if I'd had a different colleague who'd had a sister who'd just had a litter from her pet or something, it would have been very different! I did at least have the sense to buy a book on each breed we were keen on so that we could read up on them. :-) And again I was lucky with my new puppy - I wanted a tricolour bitch, and whereas most people who want a tri Cav bitch have to wait a year or two, I found a breeder with a litter due in a month who wanted a b/t puppy from the litter, so when there was also a nice tri, she was willing to sell her, which most breeders wouldn't!

Re choosing, again we were lucky - my Cav boy crawled into my lap and fell asleep and wouldn't let me see the other 2 blenheim boys, and the breeder said that was the best prospect if I wanted to show occasionally - and she was right and how!!!

>The other things I wanted to say were: It is normal for pups not to have their first vaccination at the breeders, if they leave at 7/8 wks.  Vaccinations must be made by the same manufacturer, both the first and second vaccination, and as breeders don't know what brand of vaccine the new owners' vets will use, many prefer not to give a 1st jab.  Otherwise the new vet might need to start the course of vaccinations from the beginning again and the fewer jabs a pup has to have, the better.<

This is my attitude to vaccination.  I either send pups out unvaccinated, or it they are going to stay with me past 10 wqeeks then they wil be fully vaccinated, but I refuse to send out a part vaccinated pup, as nearly always the new owners Vet will start the vaccination course again.

As for Identifying pups I prefer to have mine all tattoed, and ahve now done so for five generations, I do encourage new owners to chip their pups too, but I like the fact that the breeder details are kept by the NDTR to be contacted if the owners can't be.

Hi everyone,  some very interestin viewpoints.  Jsut to reply/discuss one or two points raised:

1) Puppy parties.  I have read a few discussions on this board about them, so decided to experiecne one for myself to see if I coudl recomend this particulars vets parties.  And I cna, it was very well run, the pups were closeley supervised, no bullying allowed.  I do realise this may not be the case with all puppy parties, but for the pup which I sell locally I knwoo feel I can recomend they try this one, if they want to attend a ppuppy party.

2) Vaccinations.  I get all my pups vaccinated at 8 weeks, unless specifically agreed with a pre-booked new owner.  When pup is booked I give the vaccination deltails to the new owner who have to check out if it is compatible with thier Vets.  We then have 2 routes, if not, then I will let the pup go without the first shot, or will keep till 2nd vaccination given (now at 10 weeks).  I appreciate this is not suitable for all breeds, expecially bigger one, but my own tow breeds are a small breed and a toy breed, neither of whoem suffers socialisation problems with going a little later.  I was amazed that none of the breeders of the puppy party pups had vaccinated at all.  Some pups had not bee bought until they were 12 weeks, and still unvaccinated.

3) Identificaqtion - either chip or tattoo.  None of the pups had been indentified by the breeders.  All my pups are chipped unless specifically requested not to do so.  Am considering going down the DNA id route soon, too.

4) Information and advice for puppy buyers.  Again none of these pups had been given anything but the very basics of a diet sheet (and then only a small number of them had this.

All in all, I realise the pups at this party coudl not be considered to be a completley representative sample, I may just have hit on a bad week.  But it did surprise me just how many pups came from less than ideal breeders (IMO, that is).  It was not a subject I had ever considered, but I guess I woudl have estimated that it woudl be about a 50/50 split - pups from "clued up" breeders v. "the rest".  It woudl appear that the odds are heavily towards to wrong end for the puppy buyer.

I do agree that some publicity woudl be a good idea, but how do we get it across?  The KC could do more, but how do you make people read it?  Perhaps big posters in Vets - of course, this is too late for lots of pup buyers, as the vet visit comes after the pup is acquired.
bye
Gwen

Your experience at the puppy party is about on par with what I find at our dog club Gwen

I do think we need to get into the education with children as these are the owners of tomorrow & you never know it might graviate upwards to their parents. It looks like the National C has still got provision for talks etc(my brother is taking it up with the ed dept as they told him it had been removed ! & as he's only working as a supply teacher he doesn't have the access to the latest NC unfo) It shouldn't really be left up the the individual schools IMHO as to whether they want to include it especially as the local city to me has a bad stray/loose dog problem & the local rescues are always full of unwanted/disgarded dogs(& cats etc to come to think of it) The savings in the dog wardens time if people were more educated would be quite big

I was very interested to read opinions on who chooses which pup because there's no doubt that the breeder is the one who is fully genned up on the individual personalities within the litter. What is harder, no doubt, is to second-guess the personality of the purchaser because I always remain amazed at how some people simply aren't what they seem. And worse, are very good at concealing themselves!

Gwen

Just a point about vaccinations - our pup wasn't vaccinated conventionally - the breeders had used nosodes. This wasn't our preferred method and so she had to start the conventional vaccinations when we got her. We had researched nosodes before getting the pup (as the breeders had been quite open about this) and so knew what we wanted to do. Maybe some people are convinced by the breeder that nosodes are the way to go.

Daisy

Hi Daisy,  I reaslie that many people have very different ideas on vaccination, i  just picked not being vaccinated by breeders as one of the signs (combined with all the others ) that none of those pups had come fromm a knowledgeable/reputable breeder.  Not meaning that any breeders who lets pups go with shots is doing anything wrong, jsut that taking a whole bunch of criteria, none of these pups had had the benefit of any of these little "extras"  (or essentials, depending on yoru view point)
bye
Gwen

I wouldnt say stay away from vets for training.  I am a trainer and I run classes at the vets.  They contacted me asking if I wanted to use their venue as it is something they wanted offer but none of their staff had the experience. 

The vets dont get involved with my classes and the venue is ideal.  If there is a class/party at the vets check WHO is taking the class, it could be an external trainer.

In my current class I have a vet nure and a vet with their dogs which shows they dont all think they know everything about everything.

I had a pup in my last class who was 17 weeks at the start.  Anyway the pups mother is pregnant again - apparently it was an accident - poor bitch.

Hi Liisa - of course, I meant if they were run by the vets or the vet nurses.

In fact, I took ours to a class held at another vet surgery.  It was run by a trainer who was assisted by a vet nurse, and it actually accepted puppies from 7/8 wks (after 1st vaccination), which I thought was excellent.  The play was supervised closely and bullying wasn't allowed.  Shy pups were let off to play together, then the confident ones played together.  If things got too intense, owners were told to pick their pups up.  It was really excellent and nothing like the puppy party I went to at our own vet's. 

Could this be a fantastic chance for the KC's accredited breeders scheme to actually mean something - with a bit of concerted effort and masses of advertising on TV/in Newspapers /magazines/on radio etc could not the message be put across that the ONLY place to buy a puppy is from a KC accredited breeder -with maybe a catchy slogan along the lines of " a dog is for life not just for Christmas" mind you the scheme would need a bit of an overhaul - as things stand you can be registered as 'accredited' even if you have never bred a litter .  The message needs to be clear and accompanied by the information on where to find accredited breeders in all breeds perhaps a directory could be published or listed in the yellow pages etc.

Once people KNOW where to go and who to contact they would be much less likely to  buy from the puppy farm trade or back yard breeders who do no health testing and take little responsibility for the animals they breed.

Yvonne

I think a lot depends on location.I live near a large 'puppy supermarket'.I would guess on average for every 10 people I ask where they got there pup 5-6 are from this puppy farm!!!
Archer

The  KC's accredited breeders will just mean some breeders will want to be on the list to make their pups worth more..... We have seen KC reg pups who are not well looked after and have heard of several people who looked at KC reg and show breeders who are a disgrace. But they have good names and do well in the show world... will be at Crufts and so on.  This is because breeding is so much an activity carried out behind closed doors.  I think the informatoin is very much provided in trust and the health checks and paperwork and so on can be window dressing.  tHese type of breeders may not make up a big part of the KC show breeders but they are show people... they will be on the list because they will do the right health checks an fill in the right papers and say the right things just as they do now.

What to look out for in a puppy or litter and in the breeder.... is probably more important training for the public that advising them to trust a list... I think this is readily available information.  The list is helpful too but to totally trust a list is probably a little worrying.

Ideally random KC checks on breeders would be good. Or maybe an online public feedback like on Ebay.

Also to encourage the concept 'you get what you pay for'. Many people seem to think the pup who costs £1000 must be better condition, health and so on than the pup who costs £50... it could be true... but most likely it is not. MOst dogs I know are rescues and were accidents or neglected and so on and are fine healthy  dogs. But there seem several young KC reg dogs...especially Labs who are lame. This is often why people keep clear of KC dogs... they actusally do think they are less healthy. This concept needs to be changed.

I just started agility and was amazed at how against the newer high standard mentality  breeders these people were... they much favoured piucking up a neglected cheap pup from a farm then paying several £100d's  for pups with health checks and health checked parents and contracts and so on.  I was very widely and very heavily critisised for encouraging outpricing people from dog ownership by being prepared to pay so much for pups from 'good breeders'.  No way will anyone change the way they think! lol!

I guess people like choice. They like to be able to choose where they get their pups and find pups who fit their budget. And not everyone have cars so also need a level of convenience in where to go for getting  a pup.

>It is normal for pups not to have their first vaccination at the breeders, if they leave at 7/8 wks.  Vaccinations must be made by the same manufacturer, both the first and second vaccination, and as breeders don't know what brand of vaccine the new owners' vets will use, many prefer not to give a 1st jab.

I agree absolutely. Besides, when I last had a litter, the vaccine preferred by my vet couldn't be given till 10 and 12 weeks of age. Most puppies of anything but some toy breeds will be seriously handicapped if the litter stays unhomed till that age.

It was nearly two years ago we started looking into dog breeds. We new all the up's and down and was prepared. We visited many breeders and walked away due to not liking there answers, not seeing the mother etc.
We purchased out pup in September this breeder answered all questions seemed genuine and caring to our faces we soon found out this breeder was a very good actor.
The documentations stating worming and injection our vets believes was never done.
Seems all he told us has been lies, breeder was that good of an actor he managed to fool three people.

Our pup became seriously ill two days after purchasing him when we contacted breeder all I got was a mouth full on phone. Our pup has been very ill since. This breeder promised to forward pups KC registration papers and so far has not done so. I contacted Kennel Club this breeder has registered our pup's sibling but not mine also was told that my pups date of birth is not the same as his sibling this explains why our vet told us he thought he was older.  My advice to people if injections are stated on documentation then make sure the vaccine numbers are beside it and check that the vaccine is one that was purchased in the UK.

I so agree with you people need educating before they go purchasing a dog I thought I educated myself obviously I didn't do a good job of this (I was informed that the breeder I purchased my puppy from is a show breeder & judge for another breed). It seems to me no matter how much you research, how many questions you ask their will always be those bad breeders who slip through.  :(

>I reaslie that many people have very different ideas on vaccination, i  just picked not being vaccinated by breeders as one of the signs (combined with all the others ) that none of those pups had come fromm a knowledgeable/reputable breeder.

I realise that you identify vaccination as one of a number of signs, Gwen but I disagree that a lack of vaccination necessarily shows that a pup hasn't come from a knowledgeable or reputable breeder. Everything depends on the age the pup leaves the breeder and the vaccination used. As it happens, my pup's breeder and I use the same vet (who likes to do first vaccinations at just under 9 weeks) and when I took Nips home at 8 weeks I made an appointment for 5 days hence for his first vaccs. My breeder was doing exactly the same thing with the pups left to be homed (we all ended up at the vet together!) so those that went a little later had already had their first vaccinations.

Hi Roz,  again yes i realise many different methods of vaccination are valid, and I was not proposing to start a whole debate of Vaccination protocol, just using this as one point - out of 18 pups present i would have expected at least 1 or 2  to have been vaccinated before purchase if they had come from reputable breeders, as many breeders do use a similar protocol to mine, and especially the ones who were bought over 12 weeks of age, when it woudl have seemed simple best practice to have the pups vaccinated when letting them go at this age, so the socialisation could begin asap
bye
Gwen

can i just ask what you acturally have to do if you are the breeder to register a litter of pups? i have never bred dogs, am not planning on it either, so don't know if there are certain rules that have to be followed made by kc (i'm guessing their aren't).
If you have a a kc reg bitch & you want her to have puppies is it just a matter of finding a kc reg dog then sending parents papers or details to kennel club to register the litter when born? If this is the case (i'm not sure if it is) then surely by the kennel club introducing health checks etc that have to be made before breeding & making rules that all puppies must have maybe for eg. 1st vaccinations, microchipped, wormed before being sold  & if there was a form to be signed by vet to say this had been done that had to be sent to kc before kc would send out papers to new owners, then wouldn't that help the situation??

The litter registration form has to be signed by the stud dog owner to confirm when the mating actually took place, and as long as the bitch isn't too young/ too old/ had too many litters already then the litter will be registered.

As has been said, most puppy buyers want their pup at about 8 weeks of age - not old enough for some vaccines, so many breeders would have to keep a litter (possibly 10 pups or more) till 10+ weeks of age. Unless they have plenty of staff, these pups will have missed out on a lot of vital socialisation. Also many completely reputable breeders prefer tattooing as a permanent ID rather than microchips, which are still not 100% reliable.

Jeangenie - what happens once the stud dog owner has signed the form?  Does the bitch owner then do nothing until they know if a litter is born?  And when it's born, the bitch owner fills in the rest of the form?  For some reason I thought there were 2 different forms - one for the mating and one for the litter registration, but then I don't breed so probably have it wrong.

It's the same form. Once the litter's born the bitch owner completes the rest of it and sends it off.

What I think would be worth consideration would be if the KC only registered litters where both dog and bitch had been independently assessed as being good examples of their breed. That would really hit the puppy farmers where it hurt.

In Sweden you pay twice as much to register puppies if the parents do NOT have certain qualifications from shows, field trials or similar. :)

That's a good idea too. :)

This is my gripe with the accredited breeder scheme.  I think that those who health test and breed from good examples of the breed etc shoudl actually be give a discount for regisraions, as it si most good breeders are paying the Kennel Club for their affix each year, and expense not bothered with by most puppy farmers, health testing all extra expense that puppy famers dispense with, and then the KC want even more money off them to go on a list whose requirements are less than they have done for years.

this kind of reputable breeder will not be bulk breeding so I doublt if the KC would be affected too much by loss of revenue.  Maybe again the puppy farmers could be charged more.

I do agree that the system used in several European countires that you have to have dogs of a certain standard before you can register pups, and kennels are checked up on etc, seem much better than out system of a "free for all"  registration system (or at least 1 price for all :) )  But then, would breeders start shouting out at the increased costs of maintaing this system?  The accredited breeder system seems to be the ideal platform to start this from, but I don't think the KC is moving fast enough on it, implementing  checks, DNA tests etc.  However, accredited breeders do have to have all the health chekcs completed for the breed, but it has just occurred to me, for breeds with variable results rather than just pass or fails, do they monitor if only dogs with satisfactory results are being bred from?
bye
Gwen

>accredited breeders do have to have all the health chekcs completed for the breed,

If only that were so! But sadly, it isn't. When the scheme was launched I asked the KC why there was no mention of BAER testing - just about the most important health test for dalmatians - and basically the reply was "We hope the system will evolve over time".

And there's no mention of heart-testing for boxers! :rolleyes: I mean, these are basics for the breeds, but simply don't feature. Where's the incentive to join this system, when it was out of date before it even started?

Hi JG,  I know that breed clubs were circulated recently with a request from the KC to state what they considered shoudl/should not be on the list of testables (I know it is not a word but you get what I mean).  For Yankees, the scheme requres testing for HC & Glaucoma, no mention of PRA.  Now both Glaucoma & PRA are thankfully not common in the breed, but PRA is probably more often found than Glaucoma.  Perhaps after this survey has been returned by all the clubs, the KC may come up wiht more sensible (and exxential ) testing criteria across the board.  I do agree it woudl have been sensible to do this before startng the scheme, of course?  And back to my earlier question, does anyone have any idea if scored tests (such as for HD) are only acceptable if within a certain range?  Or will they accept registrations simply as long as testing has been done?

bye
Gwen

I would love to see the closure of all pet shops/ puppy supermarkets most of you will know my story and experience however people DO NOT LISTEN I went in to work at the weekend a collegue said look at the picture of my sisters 8 week old golden lab after aaah and how cute I said where did she get her ummmm the same puppy supermarket they knew my history my constant battle to stop people going there and yet!!!!! I said why they just went to have a look they couldnt resist but she is fine honest My reply was she is 8 weeks old my puppy was 16 weeks when she was put to sleep I said in 2-3 months when her hips are causing concern What will they do? they plan to breed her no experience I said have they got KC papers or dog lovers uuuuuum dont know!!!!! I am furious I learned the hard way but there must be something more we can do people cant seem to resist taking one home @ 500.00 each a lot of money is made PLEASE DONT GO in the first place

I understand every word you are saying Sandy. It is like knocking your head against a brick wall at times, people do not understand the implications of purchasing a pet shop puppy.

One very simple rule to get through to the public is 'if you cannot see the dam interacting with the puppies  then walk away' This would make a dent in pet shops, pet superstores and the boarding/breeding kennels that have a petshop licence. This would at least be a starting point in halting the sale of puppies fom third parties. 

 

Unfortunately people nowadays decide they want a dog and they want it NOW, we had a call at our rescue yesterday did we have any puppies in, no, we can take your details etc etc, No I want to get one day.....its half term, she will be leaving the dog from 8am till 4 pm.....I told her that was far too long, and she would have to expect some destruction....she put the phone down on me....
I think we will be hearing from her again, when she has had her kitchen eaten...:rolleyes:

ADMIN why cant i read page 1 ? !!