I went to my first puppy party at the Vets yesterday - have never been to one before, but thought Daisy might benefit, and also wanted the experiene so I could recomend puppy buyers to go  or not go, depending on the experience.  The reason I decided to discuss it on here is partly to do with the recent threads about a poodle puppy with an eye problem, bought from what sounds like an uncaring breeder or puppy farm.

At the vets yesterday there were about 18 pups at the party (split into 2 groups according to age/size and bossiness!.)  From the brief conversations I had with other owners the only pup (apart from Daisy) who came from a show breeder was another American Cockers (who my partner bred!)
OF the rest of these pups hardly any had come with 1st vaccinations, none had been microchipped by breeder, very few had feeding details or puppy care details, none seemed to have been given advice on such issues as grooming, bathing, training etc. It made me see why puppy parties are valuable as a training experience for the owner, let alone a socialisation for the pups.  Even very basic puppy handling concepts seemed to have been lacking - Daisy was picked as the "demo model" for showing the owners how to do a daily check of the pup, explained to them as a way to familiarise themselves with the pup and a chance to train the pup to stand and be examined (especially teeth, which i gather are a big bugbear at the vets ;) ) because Daisy was the only one in the little pup section used to being handled and stood on a table! All these pups were pedigree.  It shocked me at just how many pups do come from "backyard breeders", people breeding from the pet bitch "just once" and of course the puppy farmed pup.  The owners all seemed to be sensible, caring adults who wanted to do the best by their pups - yet not one had followed what we would consider to be the best route to obtaining a pup.  The majority seemed truly amazed when i asked if they had thought about contacting a "Show breeder" for a pup - the stock response seemed to be they only wanted a pet!

How do we go about educating the public?  I know that our local free ads papers (whic, of course, are not free for puppy advertising) are including an ad form the KC about buying a puppy, but how many read it, and does it go far enough?

bye
Gwen

How many people actually research having a baby ?? :) Very few - at best they consider their finances, lifestyle and housing then just go ahead. When we got our first dog (a rescue) we considered cost, how we would cope with the walking etc and dog-proofed the garden and house. I don't think that we ever considered that the dog may have any genetic conditions etc Why should we ??? We did read a few books, but I don't think any of them mentioned the pitfalls of getting a badly bred dog. When we were children we got a puppy from a neighbour or a friend. I'd always considered the show world to be rather horrid (after watching a programme about it on television many years ago) and so never felt the need to buy a pedigree puppy. We took a lot of persuading by friends to get a pedigree pup for our second dog, but by then we were more knowledgable and did all the right research.

Goodness knows how to get to the prospective puppy owner. Can the BBC (maybe in conjunction with Battersea or some other rescue organisation) do a television programme on responsible dog ownership ??

Daisy

I think I read something in DogWorld or Our Dogs about new efforts being made soon at educating the public - but it said it would be done via the dog press and realistically, not many run-of-the-mill dog owners actually read dog magazines or papers.

The new new Scottish Animal Welfare bill has something about increasing breeder's obligations towards caring for their litter both before and afetr rehoming, I think - again, not sure on the details, and the relevant paper is lining a mouse cage now! doh!

seriously though, there is a huge need for education in this area, definitely.  I think I'm pretty clued up on buying puppies now - but only through learning from the two dogs I have, both of which are from bad breeders - both accidental litters, and one raised appallingly with no concept of how to care for a puppy.  Neither pup had their first vaccs either, and I had to make sure to ask what they were being fed and how often - the latter pup was on dry cat food!

the problem is, as you asked, how do we go about educating?  articles in newspapers help I think, and not just high-brow or dog papers; articles in tabloids would go a long way to reaching a lot of people, even if it isn't the most favourable medium.  Personally I'd like to see the free-ad papers having a central advice line that prospective owners have to go through before being given contact details for breeders, and of course dodgy breeders shouldn't be allowed to advertise - but then who decides what consitutes a dodgy breeder?  It's all very tricky, sadly, and breeders are hard to keep an eye on properly.  I'm all for strict licensing - both of breeders' dogs/kennels and owners' dogs - if it would help, but that's also very hard to police.

I know it's a particular bugbear of mine but the whole idea of WAITING for the right pup (or even knowing which might be the right pup for your lifestyle) to come along seems to be beyond so many otherwise sensible and nice people! I'm sure this is a cultural thing because we live in an increasingly materialistic society with easy access to buy whatever we want, whenever we want it. Which is, sadly in the case of pets, often now this very minute! The internet is a truly wonderful thing (it earns me most of my living!)but people are also so geared up to just Googling up any subject that they tend to confuse the information gained from a quick browse of a few webpages with the sort of knowledge that is still best got from conversations with people who really know of what they speak. Hence thinking that they've properly researched whatever breed of dog they fancy owning and can then hit the umpteen "puppies for sale" links that are scattered all over the internet.

If only people could be persuaded that pet shops are NOT and never will be the place to buy a puppy and that all good breeders will have waiting lists, the lives of so many dogs would be so much happier!

I guess there have been umpteen campaigns along these lines but there are times - even on this forum - when I honestly wonder what went through the heads of some people when they chose their dogs and I can only assume "nothing very sensible" is the answer. :(

Interesting Gwen -and very, very sad as well. I think you may just have explained why so many vets think all breeders are bad people only after money...........

I think thats a really good idea having a central advice line for all prospective owners. If all people with pups to sell had to go to one organisation for them to advertise the sale of pups it may put off some of the puppyfarmers/bad breeders. Those that didn't go through correct channels to advertise the litter would obviously be the ones that had something to hide & would therefore hopefully put off people from buying from them.
I totally agree that people should be educated about this, but this is only because sadly i was one of the uneducated people. When i got my first dog last year i went to the first ad in ad mag phoned it went to see 2 puppies that were left from a litter & came home with one. I had several problems arising from this that are highlighted in another post. If i hadn't of bought my first dog this way, because i hadn't done my research properly, i thought this was the normal way to go about getting yourself a dog for pet. I thought you only went to recommended breeders if you wanted a show dog.
I of course realise now that this is not true & if someone asked me for advice when buying a dog i would tell them to think about it very carefully first, explain how much work is involved with young pup & tell them to go to a recommended breeder (the hard work is of course well rewarded by the amount of love they give back & good company they provide).
There are lots of people out there like i was who have a good home to give a dog but just don't realise untill they own a dog what cruel people there are out there just out to make money & don't care one bit about the dogs.

In the infamous words of Donald Rumsfeld:

There are things that we know

There are things that we know that we don't know

There are things that we don't know we don't know :D :D :D

We can't help number three, but it's how we respond to the first two that's makes us a responsible or irresponsible dog owner :)

Daisy

I have to be perfectly honest here.  When I started searching for a pup I went on the internet because my OH didn't want the breed I wanted and I wasn't sure what characteristics other breeds had.  I didn't have a clue where to start. I am not a stupid person but you have to start somewhere, for me it was the internet because I have easy access to it but where to other people start?  If you are already in the dog world it's easy to see what people should and shouldn't do, but if you are a novice and don't know anyone close who has a dog what would you do if you hadn't got a clue?  It didn't occur to me to buy a magazine as I didn't even know at that point dog magazines existed, they aren't sold everywhere.  I asked in Pets at Home and they gave me a list of breeders with puppies (probably pet breeders) but that seemed a bit random for me but would it to everyone?

I think unless you are already familiar with the dog world it is very easy to fall into the pitfalls that many people find themselves in.  Having said that some people don't seem to learn and continue to buy from dodgy people.  The necessary information just isn't aimed at the pet buyer

Not sure if this will fall in the right place, but in responce to chez_swa ... I also found my breeder over the internet via her website. I then phoned her and had numerous conversations and emails in the year up untill I got my pup. So in a way yes I think the internet is a very good place to search for a pup/breeder, as long as you follow it through with visits and phonecalls etc. If it wasn't for the internet I wouldn't have my beautiful Dobe now and yes before you all ask he is pedigree, health tested  (parents too) and he is of show quality too as a crufts judge has recently picked us out at puppy training and asked if we were going to show him. But that is another story. :-)

My bugbear is that the KC do so little about this. The only way to deal with ignorance is to ADVERTISE and do it somewhere that will be seen by the average person. I'd happily pay several times the current reg. fees/affix maintenance fees etc if money went on getting the information where the public are.

I can also think of a very rich welfare organisation that can afford loads of TV ads that might consider devoting some of them to telling people how to get a pup/kitten that won't fetch up in rescue.

It should be the KC who advertise.  They advertise Crufts, people see Crufts and the dogs on there and it seems like another world.  Most people don't want show dogs they want pets so it wouldn't  occur to them to start with the KC.  I am quite good at researching so I did quite well considering.  My OH wasn't convinced though, he thought KC reg pups were expensive and why would you want one of those?  This is what most pet owners are thinking because they haven't a clue about the health risks so why would they worry about them or look into them?

Before I got my first dog I had to loads of research because the first "Alsatian"(well it was in the 1950's ;)) was from a terrible kennels & although bred in the purple(multiple G daughter of Ch Avon Prince of Alumvale :( ) my father didn't realise that her breeding was for awful fear biting character !

So when I wanted a GSD of my own my father made me find a good honest breeder(& I was only 8 at the time) I read the dog papers & books on the breed looked at photographs & begged lifts to the shows with friends(included going to most as a helper on the trains !) I found the Brittas Kennels & wrote a letter(checked by one of my dog loving teachers !) to Mrs Barrington. After a year I was allowed one of her puppies(cost me mega money all my Xmas & birthday money & pocket money for a year )! Yep she was 7 guineas & from two German imports to boot

Since then I have been ultra careful in where my puppies come from of whatever breed I have chosen-doesn't mean I haven't been conned & bought dogs from breeders who were less than honest about the health status of their dogs, but at least my dogs do look like the breeds they are

I used to give talks to school children about being a responsible dog owners, but a change in the colour of the city council saw the budget pulled for the organising teaxcher-not me I did it pro bono-& sadly it was never reinstated

I did loads of work for free with new owners of rescue dogs & I'm still on the end of the phone if anyone who gets one of our rescue GSDs needs help

When I bred the few litters I always checked homes(& got checkable references)& only ever had to take two dogs back in 16 years & literally grilled possible new owners to the nthh degree(& yet still a couple slipped through the net)

There was talk of pet"management"being part of the national cirriculum but that has disappeared sadly ! :(

I hear what you're saying but I wouldn't want to see pet management on the curriculum.  The curriculum is in a terrible mess IMO, many schools only have art 6 weeks of the year because it has been squeezed out by IT, resistant materials, Tech, etc.  My daughter told me once of a near mutiny because the teacher thought there were too many girls in class to have on tennis courts.  They had only played once during the whole year.  One of our schools did have a small farm which was very popular.  The children were allowed to look after the animals before and after school and during break times.  However, two years ago the Council decided it was too expensive and now it's a car park.

I think starting with kids is a good idea but it would be a long haul. Wouldn't it be better to advertise? The subject of responsible breeders needs to be brought to the GP, KC posters in pet shops would be a start.  That's where I first asked because I had small pets.

The"Pet management"was part of Skills for life & it was planned to be talks rather than a testable subject much along the lines of what they were doing locally. A bit like "parenting"skills

The NC has been a mess for over 15 years but it did have this available discretionary time, which is no longer there

I don't think advertising persay will work as even though we've had local coverage of a puppy dealer & the origins of their pupies they are still doing a good trade :( because people are not prepared to wait & they have puppies available "off the peg" 365 days of the year ! in all the popular breeds. Sadly we are living in a very impatient time where I want it now seems to be the norm-I waited 10 months for my puppy & previously I've waited 2 1/2 years-the GP won't do that they want instant fully trained pets !

It is all too easy to breed dogs put a male & a female irrespective of breeding, health or breed & you are a breeder

I do take exception to the use of 'GP' and wanting 'instant fully trained pets' :( Not everyone has had the benefit of your years of experience and too suggest that everyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the 'dog world' is very patronising. Yes - there are some people who would still do things the wrong way even if they knew a better way - but that doesn't apply to all people. Unless people are made aware of the reasons for waiting until the right pup comes along, they will still go out and buy whatever pup, in their inexperience, comes along.

It's no wonder that a lot of people are put off buying a pup from show homes and 'breeders' if they are made to feel woefully inadequate and part of an inferior race :( :( 

Daisy

Are you referring to me?  I used the term GP but wouldn't have if I thought people would be sensitive to it.  I used GP as a way of referring to most people, and I might be wrong but it seems from the OP that most people are not buying from reputable breeders.  I haven't got years of experience, far from it.  I am trying to put over to people who do have years of experience of ownership and breeding just how little information there is for people who haven't owned a health tested pedigree dog before which might go halfway to explaining why puppy farms are booming.

Daisy It was a generalisation but have a look at the number of questions in the visitors section re new puppies toilet training etc & these are only the tip of the ice berg.

I had a phone call yesterday from a new GSD owner( Argh poor pup was 6 weeks old)asking why it wasn't housetrained ???? & thats only one of multiple calls I get everyday. The caller went on to ask" when will "it"stop crying in it's crate overnight as it annoys me":rolleyes:

I didn't realise pets could still be part of the NC I was told(as was my brother who is a teacher-now semi retired)that it wasn't there anymore & in any case they no longer had any budget for it & it's no longer important ! Hm !!

Some people will always do the things the wrong way - but that's just the way that they are  :( As I said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek in an earlier post "We don't know, what we don't know" :) Nobody can be blamed for this. Yes - people should do research before getting a dog - but how do they know this ? Is there a book out there about how to buy/research a good puppy ?? There are lots of books about how to look after your puppy, but none of the books that I read six/seven years ago said anything about hip-scoring etc. How about writing one, MM ? :)

Daisy

LOL there are plenty of good books out there on the breeds most of the breeds written by far better authors than me

I always tell people to go to a show like DD or Crufts or just a local one &  have a look at the breeds they fancy in the flesh & then when they've got a good idea of what they like contact the breed clubs re suitable reading material & possible local breeders/owners/club for a closer warts & all look

Then after meeting the dogs reading the books decide on whether the breed is for you-I love Great Danes but after having close contact with my friends lovely dogs they are not a breed that would suit me personally for example

Then start via the breed club looking for that puppy !

Simple really ;)(tongue firmly in cheek for the last bit)

>Is there a book out there about how to buy/research a good puppy ?? There are lots of books about how to look >after your puppy, but none of the books that I read six/seven years ago said anything about hip-scoring etc. How >about writing one, MM ? :-)

Actually Daisy, I have written not one but TWO such books myself, one of them deliberately priced VERY low so that anyone can afford it. (I assume I am not allowed to mention the title here even though I get no royalties.) It mentions buying from responsible breeders, contacting the KC and breed clubs, checking parents have had health testing, researching what breed is suitable for you etc. Basic little book but all the vital stuff IS in there.It's been out for years now. And I see this book for sale in virtually every pet shop I have ever visited!! It is also for sale in other shops. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen it. The other one is bigger, bit more expensive (but still cheap!) and concentrates on getting a dog when you have kids -that too I have seen plenty of times in shops like Pets At Home. So they ARE out there........

I'll have to have a look for them next time I'm in PAH :)

All I could find six/seven years ago was a basic care book for AFTER the dog arrives :(

Daisy

Daisy It was a generalisation but have a look at the number of questions in the visitors section re new puppies toilet training etc & these are only the tip of the ice berg.

I had a phone call yesterday from a new GSD owner( Argh poor pup was 6 weeks old)asking why it wasn't housetrained ???? & thats only one of multiple calls I get everyday. The caller went on to ask" when will "it"stop crying in it's crate overnight as it annoys me":rolleyes:

Yvonne

I didn't realise pets could still be part of the NC I was told(as was my brother who is a teacher-now semi retired)that it wasn't there anymore & in any case they no longer had any budget for it & it's no longer important ! Hm !!

I see what you mean about the puppy farm bit.  I don't know of any personally.  I mentioned this on another thread but don't you think if people knew that they could get a quality product for the same price as an inferior one they might change their opinion?  People like value for money and puppy farmers certainly don't provide that.  This is where the advertising could win people over.  When I decided on a breed I went on the KC site and looked up the kennel page of a breeder that had pups for sale (didn't know about champdogs at that point).  I was happy with what I saw so phoned the breeder but her pups had been sold.  she then gave me the phone number of her friend, who was also a breeder, I phoned her, asked the health questions and that's where I eventually bought my pup. 

Another point about this is that some breeders of my breed will not sell to first time owners.  This isn't the only breed that does this and I fully understand the reasons but ... this is another reason why people might go to the puppy farmers.

Sorry, took ages to type this because son keeps coming in and lying with the dog and making stupid noises.  Dog's perfectly fine with this but son is winding me up :D

Responsible Pet ownership can be taught as part of the PHSE curriculum ( already part of the Nat Curriculum)- at our school I also do an animal assembly once a term - usually accompanied by one ( or more) of my own animals or a reliable one owned by other members of staff. The kids love it and do pick up some of the basics  of pet ownership along the way.

I also think that things like Discover Dogs are a great way of encouraging people to buy from specialist breeders rather than puppy farms. Perhaps the Kennel Club could do more along these lines - maybe make showing more inclusive to the general public -and demystify the pedigree dog world a bit more - more coverage on TV would help - all we seem to have is either Crufts or programmes which paint all us show folks as slightly mad eccentrics :(

I am always amazed that people put more effort and research into the choice of their family car than into their family dog - I'm sure that it's not because they don't care but that they don't know how to get the information they need - it's up to us to make the right kind of info available if we can - any other ideas folks ?

Yvonne

Gwen,

when we went to get our first pup together, we both had grew up with dogs. We were responsible, we took well over a year deciding what breed we wanted, what time would be best to get the pup, so that we would have time to settle him/her in. We decided on a lab, I went and got tons of books, not just on how to raise a pup, but about the breeding process (for information as well as my own curiousity), at home vet book, and the list goes on. We went online and looked up information. I live in the States, so I went and got referrals from the AKC for breeders in my state, looked at their websites (if they had any), and yes..I even did what seems like the most awful thing in the world and look in the free ads. I had an understanding of what I as a buyer should be looking for in a breeder and what the breeder as a seller would be looking for it me. Even went as far as touring vets nearby! I felt like I was having a baby, picking out names, visiting doctors offices! lol!! 

We thought that we did all the right steps!

I started to email and call breeders at the end of October and early November, because we decided that Christmas would be best for both of us, having almost two months off put together, the puppy wouldn't be left at home alone ever. The first two breeders (we got five from the AKC) never even to bothered to email me back, even to this day! Next one we played phone tag for a while, then finally got ahold of each other, and she was in a hurry and had to go somewhere but that she took all my information and said she would call me back we would set up a time so we could come and visit. Never got a call back!. The last one was the worst! By the time I got off the phone, I was in tears. I have never felt so awful/useless/uneducated in my life. She not only made a huge deal about the time of year that it was, she went off on how this wasn't something just do today that it was a life time commitment...blah blah blah. She just kept on going and going...I barely got my name out and the fact that I was interested in visiting, let alone anything else. She was completely rude and so worried about getting out what she wanted to say, and thinking that she had be already nailed to a tee of what type of person I was, she didn't want to hear anything I had to say. So I gave up on the "reputable" and "so called responsible breeders"! And after that experience, I don't think that I would never buy from one. It wasn't just ONE bad experience, it was from five different breeders.
I didn't want to breed. We knew that we wanted a hunting background, my fiance likes to hunt. We just didn't know what color (which didn't even matter to us truthfully) and at first we were favoring toward a girl. Although at the time we were living in an apartment, we were moving to a house with an acre of fenced in yard, in April of that year.

Now, I think that it was hilarious, considering that this breeder who had acted all high and mighty, had asked all the questions that ALL the books and websites had stated should not be asked. That the breeder should have you visit and that they should know the personality of the pups and would be able to help match a pup with it's owners.

So I went a different way, I went to the ads, for AKC registered pups and made some calls. After some deciding we made plans to visit two. But we never got to the second one. I fell in love with Remi, a black male, for the minute I saw him. The furriest little pudge ball that I have ever seen, although all of them were cute. They were great people, although on this forum they would be refered to as  "backyard breeders". And yes, they wanted to breed their bitch once before they sprayed her! But they had a kennel built that attached to the house, so when they got older, they would be able to have a safe place to run around. They got all the puppies their first shots, and had the option of microchipped if we wanted. They also drove around Christmas Eve and HAND delivered them to the familes! Both the parents were obliviously AKC registered, had all the proper paper work and tests done. The father lived down the road a few houses and we had the option of visiting with him. Even though they didn't give us a puppy pack, they gave us a small bag of the food that they were feeding, the paper work that stated they had all their shots, and proof of microchipping.

I am not saying that all breeders are bad, I'm sure that their are good ones. But those that bad mouth, the backyard breeders, should be careful. Yes I know that some of them are pupper farmers and such, but a number are not. It just frustrates me to always hear and read about how bad these backyard breeder people are, when I have experienced the exact opposite!! I think that sometimes breeders are so along the lines of thinking with a narrow minded view ( from a website that was posted on here: no renters, no one young, no one old, income value, no people with other pets!!!) that they let good homes slipp through their fingers.

Everyone just needs to sometimes step back and take a breather! We all need to stop jumping to conclusions about the where the puppies come from, or who the owners are! Because not everyone can read everyone absolutely right the first time around!

I think more education is, obviously, a good thing and will surely direct a lot of intelligent folk off in the right direction but there are two things that make me pesimistic about it being capable of bringing the whole puppy farming issue to an end. 
One, there will always be those that let the information go in one ear and out the other because nothing is going to stop them getting that puppy that they want just right now!
Secondly, amongst those that do take on board the message and seek out reputable breeders there will be some who present with a lifestyle totally inadequate to offer the dog any quality of life and yet will not accept when the breeder advises them of this and consequently head off to the first dealer who does not ask annoying questions.

I sympathise with Remi, I spent months trying to find "reputable" breeders. There is no definitive place or organisation where you can go to find a good breeder. KC does not guarentee reputation, they just take your money. The breed clubs were less than helpful. They did not reply to my emails and when i rang them did not want to spend the time going through their lists and finding someone in my area - they just gave me one or two names which were not remotely near me. I accosted people in the street asking them where they got their westie from (amazing how many couldnt remember!) There really needs to be a better system than there is, it feels like an exclusive club where you have to part of the network to qualify for access to reputable breeders. Its no wonder so many go to commercial breeders as they are easy to find at least!

You are right Isobel, you would never get rid of puppy farmers completely but you could reduce them somewhat.  There is also the question of people ignoring advice re their lifestyle.  However for all those dogs in rescue (one is too many I know) there are thousands that are loved, well looked after pets.  I suppose you have to weigh up the pros and cons and decide whether it is better to risk having more 'better' bred dogs in rescue than thousands of 'poorly' bred dogs with families that don't quite have suitable lifestyles?  Many breeders of my dog's breed will not sell to first time owners, so where do you start?  I am a first time owner and have had no problems so there are no hard and fast rules that apply all over.

Well there is probably a grey area of opinion about whether a suitable home can be offered and it's going to vary breed by breed too but there are some people who definately, definately should not be allowed to buy a dog and yet they themselves do not accept this and somewhere they get hold of them.  But I do agree more education (when it will be accepted ;)) will always be a good move.

>>but there are some people who definately, definately should not be allowed to buy a dog and yet they themselves do not accept this and somewhere they get hold of them

probably the same people who shouldn't have children but have a few anyway ;)

If they had to come to reputable gooseberry bush growers we could probably put a stop to that too :D

I agree totally! You only have to read these boards for a few weeks to realise that vast numbers of people only hear what they want to hear. :( If the truth doesn't dovetail with their requirements, the mildest names we're called is cliquey snobs and liars, so we can't win.

I've no plans to give up trying though :)

Nor me! At least we can do the right thing by our pups. It's Catch 22 - if you limit the supply of anything, you immediately create a black market. If you don't limit it, anything goes. Until the quality of person buying puppies improves, the poor dogs will suffer.

It comes back to education then.  Lots of people don't have a clue when it comes to owning a dog.  It's bought on a whim. We had quite a few conversations, some about who will take it for walks, train it, pick up the poo to how much will it cost, vets, insurance, food.  These were ironed out before we even discussed or researched breeds.  There was still so much I didn't know.  Even finding a decent training club wasn't straight forward.  It's so popular it doesn't need to advertise which is all well and good if you are in the dog circle to begin with, but it was about 8 months before I discovered it by word of mouth because I didn't know anyone who took their dogs training.

I have seen posts on other threads that have said that good breeders don't need to advertise because they have waiting lists.  That's great for them but it does mean that people who are not in the know haven't got access to these breeders.  The breeders are probably thinking "good job" :D and I don't blame them but it does mean that people are still kept ignorant and end up on the road to less reputable breeders.

Definitely there needs to be more easily accessible information not just on breeding but on ownership.  I would expect there wouldn't be so many dogs in rescue if the owners had realised how much time, energy and effort is required.  It would put them off.  I can't believe some of the quesitons and complaints I read on here.

I appreciate what you say Gwen, however there are a few other factors to point out.

First - puppy parties at vets are not always a good idea.  Personally, I wouldn't take a pup to our vet's, because I took our last pup to one there and it was terrible - the pups were allowed to run about everywhere, all together.  The confident ones bullied the shy ones, the shy ones learnt that they were victims and it was very horrifying to watch.  I spent most of the night with our pup on my knee, refusing to put her down in the medlee.  Vets are animal MEDICAL experts, they are no animal behaviour experts and in my opinion they should leave socialisation to trainers and behaviourists.

Of course it's fine for them to give talks to new puppy owners about how to check out their pups and medical advice, worming, neutering and so on - but letting all the pups run about together with no intervention is just a recipe for disaster.  I'm not saying that's what happened at your puppy party, but that's what ours was like and people should be aware of the potential problems when they go to one and be prepared to keep their pups on their knees.

The other things I wanted to say were: It is normal for pups not to have their first vaccination at the breeders, if they leave at 7/8 wks.  Vaccinations must be made by the same manufacturer, both the first and second vaccination, and as breeders don't know what brand of vaccine the new owners' vets will use, many prefer not to give a 1st jab.  Otherwise the new vet might need to start the course of vaccinations from the beginning again and the fewer jabs a pup has to have, the better.

I do think pups should be microchipped but I wouldn't dismiss a breeder if they don't chip, and would consider it a bonus rather than something which defines whether they are a good breeder or not.  The microchip is pretty big for a pup and I do know some breeders and vets who feel that a pup is best waiting till they have their 2nd jab before they are chipped - which is obviously after they have left the breeder's.

Obviously I agree with the general idea of what you're saying - that only responsible people should breed and that aftercare should be provided by the breeder and advice given etc, I just wanted to make these points.

> I do think pups should be microchipped but I wouldn't dismiss a breeder if they don't chip, and would consider it a bonus rather than something which defines whether they are a good breeder or not.  The microchip is pretty big for a pup and I do know some breeders and vets who feel that a pup is best waiting till they have their 2nd jab before they are chipped - which is obviously after they have left the breeder's.<

Not tattooing then ? after all if you choose a tattooed puppy(done at 6 weeks of age BTW)you know the puppy get is the same one you chose as most tattoos are legible after a couple of days ;) unless you take a scanner with you & the puppies have been scanned & you are given the number how do you know you get the one you chose ?

Moonmaiden - my personal preference is for chipping, although obviously others prefer tattooing and I have nothing against that.  But I do think the dog should be permanently identified in some way, whether that be chip or tattoo. 

Also, I didn't say that I agree with those breeders and vets who don't chip at a young age - I don't actually.  Personally, if I bred, I would chip a litter at 6/7 wks, before they left me.

I also wouldn't let people "choose" their pup - I would assign each pup to its owner based on that owner's requirements and home, and the personality and conformation of each pup. 

I do understand why you say that you wouldn't let the buyer choose the pup but looking from the other side I can see how this pushes people to puppy farmers.  If people want a dog they will buy a dog.  If they aren't allowed to choose from one seller they will go to a seller who lets them choose what they want.  Whether this is right or wrong the point is if breeders are going to put restrictions on the sale of their puppies there will be many many people who will continue to support the puppy farming industry.  You then have to ask yourself if breeders who place strict restrictions such as selecting the pups THEY think are suitable are they then partly responsible for encouraging puppy farming?

Cor blimey I'm feeling brave

  >If people want a dog they will buy a dog.  If they aren't allowed to choose from one seller they will go to a seller >who lets them choose what they want.

The trick is to make them BELIEVE they are choosing whilst all the time you are in various ways pushing the pup you think would suit them best towards them. :D :D I was told this by the breeder of my bitch, and when she came up to see the litter last time she was here when a few of the pups went and helped me do it -and believe it or not, each person that was allowed to chose managed to pick the pup we WANTED them to pick. :)

I love psychology :D

Chez - In reality, though, it doesn't work like that.

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, people who "just want a pup asap" and want to be the ultimate consumers in every way (choose the pup they want, have it when they want, how they want, call all the shots etc) are also people who are most likely to give up on a pup when it gets adolescent or at the slightest sign of difficulty.  That is - they will see it as a disposable as any other item of their household is.  So if someone is going to come over as that kind of person to me, and I had a litter, I wouldn't want to be placing a pup with them anyway!

I'd also have to say that from my experience, it doesn't work the way you say - people are not put off (usually) when they hear that they can't choose the pup.  I know of several breeders who hold to this way of doing things, and their waiting lists are long and healthy.  Far from finding it difficult to find homes for their pups, quite the opposite.

People often want a pup for a purpose - for showing, for agility, for obedience, for gundog work - you name it.  Some people might want the liveliest pup in the litter.  Others might want the most laid back.  I don't think it's very hard to see that someone who has lived with the pups for 7 weeks can make a better match for each owner than someone who spends 2 hours with them and makes a choice.  What if the lively pup was feeling tired at that particular time?  What if the family with the smallest garden who work the longest hours, decided they wanted the most active puppy?

When a child is adopted great time and effort is put into matching each child up with his/her "forever" home, and I'd like to think it's possible to at least attempt that with pups as well.

>At the risk of being shot down in flames here, people who "just want a pup asap" and want to be the ultimate >consumers in every way (choose the pup they want, have it when they want, how they want, call all the shots etc) >are also people who are most likely to give up on a pup when it gets adolescent or at the slightest sign of >difficulty.  That is - they will see it as a disposable as any other item of their household is.

Couldn't agree more. I only have very little experience of sellings puppies (2 litters, that's all) but I have a LOT of experience of selling kittens. (Over 40 litters.) My way these days is a first to do all I can to put people off. Explain about all the hard work involved, that I have a waiting list,that it may be a long wait etc, and I ask a lot of questions at the first point of contact. The unsuitable ones disappear at once then, and I'm generally left with the genuine peple that will give a good home. In fact one thing I find is that if they are prepared to wait (and I've had people wait a year for a PET kitten, even though it's of a breed that is not at all rare, and much longer for a puppy although that breed IS rare) -they are usually the right sort of person. In no rush, willing to listen and take their time and consider the breeder's attitude a lot, and prefer somebody who asks questions and won't sell to anybody no questions asked. I've had lots of people say to me they like the fact that I cared, and they chose me BECAUSE I did. Yes sure, this means the unsuitable people will go elsewhere, but also in my experience the unsuitable ones are often lost causes........... You can explain until you are blue in the face and it will not hit home. I spent years doing it before giving up and changing tactics. And I'm not prepared to let my carefully reared babies go to the wrong homes just to educate people. Unfortunately in today's society people think it is their RIGHT to own anything they want. I've even had to have this argument with my own HUSBAND! He was peeved when he bought a pedigree cat for showing and had to sign a contract saying the cat was to be neutered and not bred from. I explained until I was blue in the face that he paid a NON breeding price as is the norm in cats, the cat was reg'd as non active (same as being endorsed not for breeding) and after all he had NO intention of breeding it, did he??? But he STILL, years later, says it's wrong! "I bought the cat so I should be able to do what I want." So if I can't even get through to my own husband who very much is in the middle of breeding and showing with me (everything is in my name but he takes a very active part, does all the handling for instance) what chance have I got with strangers.......

I wouldn't shoot anyone down in flames, I'm too nice ;) :D

Anyone who wants a pup asap has to be queried, I agree.  If they are the people who are most likely to give a dog up at the first hurdle then no, they shouldn't be encouraged to have a dog at all.  There's no ideal solution for dealing with them because they are going to buy a dog whatever, the outcome isn't important to them.

>>I'd also have to say that from my experience, it doesn't work the way you say - people are not put off (usually) when they hear that they can't choose the pup.  I know of several breeders who hold to this way of doing things, and their waiting lists are long and healthy.  Far from finding it difficult to find homes for their pups, quite the opposite.

These aren't the buyers we are discussing though.  These buyers know what they are doing, what they are looking for and where to get it.  I suppose I am thinking about myself here, I consider myself an ordinary person, brighter than the average 40 watt bulb :D just wanted a pet but with certain characteristics.  I didn't have a clue where to start but my searching took me down the right path however, there was a certain amount of luck involved.  I could have easily picked up the phone to a KC reg pup breeder and not been so lucky.  Now I have a dog I know exactly what to do for my second dog.  I would have really valued some initial information to point me in the right direction.

The conclusion then is that there is no solution :(  there's always going to be a divide.  It means though that  you can't really criticise the owners who come on here having 'rescued' a pup from a farm when clearly no breeder who values their pups would sell to them anyway.

Yes, but even if you just wanted a pet with certain characteristics, the breeder is far better placed to find the pup with the characteristics you want than you are. 

When we first were told we couldn't choose, believe me, we felt like we were being short changed a bit - but now we have the pup that was chosen for us and we've met the breeder, we know that we have the pup that was most suited to our lifestyle and that is part of the reason everything has been such a success and all of this litter are still in their forever homes.  My breed is highly active, needs a lot of exercise as an adult and is very intelligent.  Many of them end up in rescue because people don't understand what they're taking on.  As such, it is harder to find suitable homes for them than it is for many other breeds and this approach is even more necessary to give each pup/owner partnership the best chance of being a success.

Your breed sounds like mine and I have to say at the risk of sounding contradictory that we didn't have much choice because there were only two bitches left in the litter.  The two left were the quietest and to be honest I think for the breed that she is, she doesn't show the levels of destructiveness and boredom so often read about.  Very energetic and always ready to be up and at 'em, but happy to sleep most of the day away otherwise.  However, I don't think the approach of choosing for the buyer would always work so well for the mass market and this is what I think we are talking about isn't it?  There seems to be two distinct sides. On one hand you have people who want a quality dog, are prepared to wait and are flexible with their overall requirements regarding characteristics and on the other you have what might possibly be the mass market where people have decided to get a pup so lets go and get one now.

It seems to me from the amazing requests on here for designer breeds and specific aesthetic characteristics that people just don't know what they are letting themselves into when they get a poorly bred pup.  I think there is a proverb that goes "Buy in haste and repent at leisure."  I can remember years and years ago, decades in fact that the puppy farming industry received a lot of negative publicity. That stayed with me all these years and perhaps it's time that someone brought the subject up for the mass media to flag up again.

If more people were educated and the direction of puppy sales veered towards quality bred pups, you would need more quality breeders though wouldn't you?

>If more people were educated and the direction of puppy sales veered towards quality bred pups, you would need more quality breeders though wouldn't you?

Well maybe there are some breeds in short supply and there is definately scope for encouraging those that do breed to move their practices into the scope of a quality breeder but at the end of the day I think the education has got to involve persuading people to accept that it is sometimes the case that they just do not have a good quality of life to offer a dog at this point in their lives rather than moving them in one direction or another to source their puppy.

>you can't really criticise the owners who come on here having 'rescued' a pup from a farm when clearly no breeder who values their pups would sell to them anyway.

Of course you can! What they should have done is taken on board what the breeder, with their greater experience, has advised them as regards the suitability of the home offered and either done something to change it for instance alter their working hours, move to more suitable accomodation, wait for more advanced maturity of either themselves ;) or their children or whatever it was the breeder felt was wrong or do without a dog.

I didn't explain that very clearly.  I didn't mean people who go to puppy farmers after being turned away from reputable breeders.  I might be wrong but if a lot of people are like me who didn't know where to start to look for a pup, they might end up buying from someone who is only in it to make profit.  It's not necessarily their fault they bought from a breeder in the business to make money.  Some of these places advertised might look attractive if you don't know any better. I did look into various breeds, found out lots of information and eventually my searching took me down the right track.  My OH who knows zilch about dogs couldn't understand why I was going through the Kennel Club, in fact he couldn't understand why I wanted a pedigree, he's not stupid, just more clueless than I was at that point.  At least I knew about HD and differing health problems between breeds but this was news to him and I expect he is 'most' prospective dog owners.  Many people might not find the right way to go but if given all the information of where to go and what to do and what to look for  could make an informed choice. You'll always get those who don't give a monkey's but I don't think they are most people, a lot of people yes, but not most. I honestly believe that if people had a highly publicised direct route to reputable breeders you would get more people making better decisions based on information from experienced people who know what's best for them and best for dogs.  A dog breeder is a person who breeds dogs and if you end up going to one of the farmers or friend of a friend, you are not going to get sound advice as those breeders are only interested in selling the pups not in the ongoing welfare.

Like I said in the other post, I do remember publicity about puppy farming years and years ago but not seen anything in recent years that would catch my attention. 

>I also wouldn't let people "choose" their pup

I assume that your breed all look identical. In mine, the different markings have to be taken into account - some people love the spotty faces, and others don't; some like lighter-marked dogs, others go for the heavier markings. The dog has to appeal visually to the owner from the outset or the prospects for that home aren't great.