I garden train mine so within 30 minutes (every 30 minutes that is :rolleyes: ) they are doing their business outside :P   I can't see the point in wasting 1,2,3 + weeks using paper when the end result is (presumably  ) to train the puppy into only ever toileting outdoors.   Takes all kinds of course.

Regards, Teri ;)

a flat has no garden this is my point so paper training is a must if you live 10 floors up for example im not asking for advice as my dogs all go outside just trying to find out why people are so against it if you ever read books on puppies it mentions paper or pads to train your pup:0

Please read further up the thread - they have balconies :P   In any event you've clearly found this to be a wonderful method so go for it - I'm sure "if I ever read books" I'd be totally reformed ;)

You are just so clever remind me to come to you next time i have a problem and i wasnt talking about the replies having balconies people in general if you have nothing nice to comment why bother it seems to me from advice youve given in the past you like to annoy a thread instead of help so goodbye

Hi Trackie, Please take the time to revisit http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=70856 and expose what drew you to the conclusion a separate thread was necessary and, more importantly, at which point in the above thread you felt

>as people are only asking for advice some people make them feel useless as dog owners with their replies<

Neither the OP (Chihuahua kent) - who was clearly looking for an effective alternative to her current paper training regime nor the second poster (Schnauzababy) appear to have taken umbrage with my replies   Surely strange if "some people" (i.e. ME ) had made either of them "feel useless as dog owners" - wouldn't you agree?

>>Why has this turned sour <

Er, apart from your opening statement already quoted, perhaps comments from yourself about "whether I read books", "understand English", have any formal training qualification or possibly even write my own dog books may have played a significant role in that  

>it seems to me from advice youve given in the past you like to annoy a thread instead of help < 

It appears you saved the most enlightening information until last - that you already harboured ill feeling towards me so then it didn't really matter what I had to say :rolleyes: even in my earlier reply to you this afternoon on your other thread "Advice puppy Staff biting" when my suggestion of a useful source of information went unacknowledged....... 

Actually i was very grateful for the advice on staffy biting and i wasnt meaning do you write your own book in malice i thought that maybe you were a dog trainer of sorts.Nothing i have said was ill felt and im sorry if it seemed that way thankyou for the help with the biting situation and once again accept my apologies if it seemed i was offending you :)

No worries trackie ;) -  we all have off days and life's too short for harbouring grudges.   Thanks, Teri :)

Ill try and keep this breif, no doubt i will fail.

It is preferable NOT to paper train puppies (unless like people living in flats, you really cant avoid it) because:

Dogs are far far better at learning TO DO something specific, than to NOT DO that same thing.

So, you have a dog that jumps up, you are better off teaching the dog to SIT instead of JUMP, rather than teaching it NOT to jump (because then there is nothing to replace the jumping behaviour, leaving the dog needing to DO something, but what??).

So, with housetraining, because dogs are quite specific about where they will go, and on what surface etc, you are MUCH better off teaching them that going outside is fantastically rewarding. If you teach that going inside is ok, then when you come to teach that OUTSIDE only is acceptable, you have a problem.

You now have to either, start the training from scratch, going back to watching and taking out every half an hour, after walks and games and food, OR, you have to shout NO and positively punish the dog for going inside.

The issue with doing the latter is, positive punishment will make the dog associate not just going INSIDE with the punishment, but also with YOU -- thus you stand a good chance of having a dog that no longer wishes to toilet in front of you. This leads to young dogs who sneak off to toilet somewhere, dogs who hang on all day and then toilet in the house.

In addition, whilst dogs wont soil their own 'den'  a house is far too big to be considered a 'den', so its much more practical to teach that it is GOOD to go 'here', rather than its bad to go 'here here here and here'.
Does that make sense??

It wasnt very breif at all, sorry!

Em

:D @ Em

>Ill try and keep this breif, no doubt i will fail<

If you'd covered it in a couple of lines I'd have reported the post to Admin as an imposter's :P :P :P  Good points though ;)

Teri 

What would you do if you werent around for every 30 mins to garden train?

To be honest, and speaking for myself, if I wasn't there to train a puppy I wouldn't have one ...

To be honest when my dog was a pup she wasnt trained properly until 3 1/2 months of age. With the best will in the world who could be around to take them out every half hour or so? I work part time ( mornings) and like loads of other people our dog is a much loved valuable member of our family you sound abit judgemental to me...

Hi Deb,
As with JeanGenie, I personally would not have a puppy if I were not able to fully commit to offering the intensive training & socialising it needs in the first critical weeks when it leaves the nest ;)  Young puppies sleep for fairly long spells through the course of the day during which time I can go out shopping and be back in plenty of time to see to my youngster's needs.  I arrange my personal schedule around the individual needs of each puppy I've ever owned and if it was inconvenient or awkward for me at the time well that was just tough on me <lol>  Two weeks intensive house training with a puppy is plenty of time for most to learn how to ask out - OK, they have as yet to develop bladder / bowel control which is why as owners we need to be ever vigilant and pre-empt such times by taking them out at specific intervals such as after waking, meals and playing.   Our own dogs sleep in the bedroom with us and a new puppy does too but is crated overnight on vet-bed until such times as it can safely (for that read I can't prevent it :D ) jump on and off the bed - thereafter the puppy sleeps loose in the bedroom too.  I stay up late with puppies and rise early for them so that for the first say 2-3 weeks they are able to remain clean overnight in their crate as they've been there a maximum of 5-6 hours.  Shopping or visiting places the puppy can't accompany me are put on hold until my OH comes home from work and can take over where I've left off.  Even someone in part-time employment could work around these arrangements (as I was when we had our first two dogs) by taking two weeks off when first getting their puppy and perhaps having their partner take a further week off.  I take all stages and aspects of puppy rearing very seriously as many of the things that go wrong in older dogs can be attributed to causes relating to the first 16 weeks of their lives.  HTH, regards, Teri :)   

Each to their own Terri my dog is 1 and the hazy days of toilet training are well and truly behind me (thank god!). I think what works for one doesnt necessarily work for another - the danger with this forum is people can get a bit "fired up" on what s right and wrong and i think thats a real shame because it can put people off ( i can remeber joining and seeing some down right bitch stuff) and when you think of it there is so much knowledge on this forum which could help a novice.
Deb

>the danger with this forum is people can get a bit "fired up" on what s right and wrong and i think thats a real shame because it can put people off <

I'd agree, Deb.  There's nothing quite like someone opening up a topic for discussion by insulting regular contributor(s) for considered, experienced and practical advice given in a friendly manner for firing it up - I should think it could easily put most folks off.  It certainly has done so for me.  

I have housetrained 2 pups using the modern methods as described in this thread.  I have never ever had a puppy that knows exactly what to do within 1 or 2 days.  Even 3 and a half weeks to me is very quick and I have to say I am at home all day and have been viligant.  It may be that the puppy knows to go outside and that is where he/she wants to go but they sure don't know how to come and tell you they want outside.  To me, proper housetraining is when your pup will come and tell you they need to go out.  I must have really backward dogs!!!  However, one of my old neighbours did paper train which I was very interested in because I didn't know how it was done.  It was explained to me and, to be honest, their dog was housetrained very quickly.  I can see all the problems with papers coming through the door, newspapers lying about the house etc., but when a dog is completely housetrained they don't even want to do it indoors.  As I've said, I must have very backward dogs because last night is the first night that Ruby actually came and woke me up to let me know she needed out.  Prior to that, as soon as I heard her move I was up and out the door with her.  She is now 11 months!!!!!  And honestly I have followed all the guidelines.  Don't you think that sometimes its down to the dog and the age at which they mature.  I can honestly say I've never heard of a puppy being fully housetrained in 2 days or 3 and a half weeks - without accidents - and that to me is not fully housetrained.  Hope this makes sense!

Annie

I think it is possible to completely house train a puppy in a short time. Although every dog is different. My puppy was trained within 5 days of getting him, using the take him out every hour etc. (and he was only 7 weeks when we got him) He now goes to the back door on his own and sits down when he wants out. If we dont notice him he will give a little whimper! :-) We have not had any accidents since then and he even goes to the door if he is in someone elses house! :D But, like i say...every dog is different. But it IS possible. :-)

I definitely think my dogs are backward!!!  As I say, it was a milestone last night when she actually came to me and woke me up to get out.  My working cocker did go and sit at the door but he didn't whimper but Ruby was a different story altogether.  She would go to the door - if it was shut and I happened to be in the loo or somewhere else at the time - she just did it!!  But, as I say, we have passed the milestone now and has been a huge problem for me.  I was beginning to get paranoid about it, thinking she would never learn.  She just didn't seem to make the connection!

Annie

Well done for hanging in there!! :D You must be so proud of her!! At least she got there in the end! :-)

My friend had problems with one of her cockers until he came to stay with me for two weeks, I just popped him and his brother into a cage for the night, he didnt wet once and didnt even cry to be let out which just goes to show that he could hang on, it was just habit making him wee at night.  My friend now has a large cage for her boys and hasnt had a problem since :)

I have to say it has been a long hard slog but I was so chuffed with her last night I just kissed her!!  I better not speak too soon though - where's that wood to touch!!

Annie

I had a dog that I papertrained when he was little, and all went well. About 2 years later, we got a new front door and I hadn't put up the paper guard, so the newspaper was delivered straight through the letterbox and onto the floor... Clever doggy decided it was the perfect chance to leave a 'present'... When we came home about half an hour later, we opened the front door to an awful stench and to our surprise we had smeared it everywhere!!

We weren't annoyed at the dog at all as he was only doing what he was taught... but all my dogs ever since have been taught to go straight in the garden...

Just something to think about!! :) :D

That's not uncommon with dogs who've been well paper-trained!

:D

Just an interesting point, someone i know recently went to Japan ( to do with dog education i think ) They were saying that most of the people who own dogs over there live in high rise flats ...... however they think the western world are the ones who have it wrong ....:)
As such "us westerners" make our dogs wait for toilet access ie. we go out to work, some for up to 8 hours a day & expect our dogs to wait for the owners to come home to be able to have a wee and pooh.
Where as in Japan they have what i suppose we would call wet rooms & their dogs are trained to use this, when ever they feel the need to use it, its hygienic as it flushes down in to the main drains & it gets cleaned down with cleaners ect. The dogs all get walked aswell, obviously.
I found this aspect was quite an intersting topic & one that i would use if i had to or if i had such a room available.
I know that sometimes i would have problems holding myself for some 8 hours and no i'm not wanting to cause anarguement about how long dogs should be left at home alone for :D

Stanley, my Molly has her own 'toilet room' only I call it the shed! We have a outside loo and shed, which is attached to the back of the house by a roof covering. We gave her half of the shed, built a brick wall in the middle so she'd have shelter and warmth if I wanted the back door closed for whatever reason, full access to the garden and where does she pee and poo? In the shed!  :D
Paper training? She went anywhere BUT the paper! Like most have said already, it takes a lot of patience and time going in and out to the garden, but 6 months later I think I've cracked it. (As long as I keep the shed door locked) :)
And for the record trackie29, Teri gives very good advice and I for one will be ever grateful to her for the help she has give me and Maddie.

Dee

It's really confusing to a puppy in my opinion because the pup is being rewarded for weeing on paper in the same spot and then you expect it to go outside.  I haven't read any other posteds just responding to the op.

Warm regards Susan

Thank you Dee,  Teri x

you seem to have a real problem with people who paper train their dogs???? whaat does it matter if it works for them and it DOES for a lot of people?
Deb

but this way obviously didnt work for you seeing as your dog still wasnt house trained at 3 1/2 months - so why knock something when you havent tried it

what teh hell are you talking about? if you had read my earlier threads i think you find i did! My dog was trained on a variety of garden and paper training. I know loads of owners whose dogs werent propely trained until 3 to 4 months. Infact even at our training class the trainer used to tell us not to expect it until the dogs were 16 weeks. U must have had one of those super dogs... or maybe ur just a super duper trainer...

well thats why it did take ages to train your dog then if you were using a variety - poor thing must have been well confused

Im not a "super duper" trainer, I just use consistency.  Yes some dogs may take longer than others to train, and many do not have bladder control until they are 6 months old but this does not stop a pup learning where it should and shouldnt go.

Thanks for your aggressiveness and sarcasticness, its posters like you who put people off coming on this board.

I think its more likely to be the pople who make everyone else feel like they are getting wrong who actually put people off anyway must go id rather be out spending some quality time on my dog than biching with you... u shud try it sometime!

I only give advice based on my experience, and would only tell someone they are getting it wrong for the good of them and their dog. 

> id rather be out spending some quality time on my dog than biching with you... u shud try it sometime!

if thats not bitching I dont know what is, you are certainly contradicting yourself seeing as you said in an earlier post that you dont have time to house train a puppy by constantly putting it out in the garden.  I dont wish to "bitch" with you, its not in my nature, I just say things as I see it and if you dont like it I suggest you go throw you toys out of your pram elsewhere because you are boring me now :)

my first pup was like this, if it was on the floor he pooped on it. My hubby threw his jacket down on to the arm of the chair, it slipped off and little jez left him a pressie. It used to crack me up. We didnt bother paper training our new baby we went straight outside every half hour. I think it is up to you how you do it though.

Yes i agree with Stan, but after reading your post Stann i couldn't stop laughing.  What did your hubby do?

Warm regards Susan

there is a lady who goes to all her shows on a train. shes trained her dogs to go on a tin tray!

well he picked it up without looking as he was having a rant, grabbed half of the pressie, the other half plopped on his shoe, promptley dropped it started to urge and ran upstairs. It'a a great one for social events!!! My hubby has the weakest stomach and bodily secretions of any kind are my department. He always hangs his coat up now, i think i laughed for about an hour he was not amused.

>three to four weeks the went outside

I couldnt wait this long for a pup to be house trained, mine are done and dusted within a week at the most ;)

Talking about paper training though, when i was little we paper trained our dogs and one day my mum was reading a broadsheet size newspaper on the floor and puppy just came along and peed on it - well he thought he was allowed :D :D

I've always paper trained my dogs and within a week they've always been able to go outside and do their business without any more tinkles etc in the house. Luckily for me it's worked so I can't call it.

I have never paper trained my dogs, and mine were 'day' housetrained within days, 'nights' within 2 weeks.
But i have never got a puppy during the cold months only during summer so maybe thats why it has been easy for us as we don't mind standing outside in mild weather and they can take their time.

I compare the first month or so of bringing a puppy home to bringing a baby home! Except for me,the puppy was more hard work and stressful than my babies ;)

Gosh you must have had angelic children or the puppy from hell :D

Give me puppies any time.  At least their developement only takes weeks.  Wtih a Baby your lucky to be geull nights sleep by the age of two.  Wtih a pup you ahve gone through baby stage, Prinary and secondary scholl, the I know it all teenager and finally got them to the equivalent of your offspring at University age. :D

After two children now a,most 18 and 14, give me pups any day!!!

It's the housetraining thats puts me off of EVER getting a puppy again,plus i'm a worry wort! The thought of housetraining another puppy makes me cringe! I did all the right things,taking them out every half hour etc. etc. Sometimes they would pee outside and then do another inside 10 minutes later,or after standing outside just about frozen to the spot without any joy,they would march right back inside and drop one on the carpet
However i always gave them full run of the house,wether i was home or not,this probaly set me back heaps....

I've only ever had ickle dogs,i've heard big ones are easier to housetrain?? It makes me want to vomit when i hear of these owners who have housetrained their dogs in 1-2 days ;) :D
I cant help thinking that had i paper trained them it would have taken even longer.I dont know,i reckon it would confuse them,do they pee inside or outside,do they even know which one is right, when they are allowed to do both?

My kids slept through from 8 weeks on,i wouldnt have had it any other way! and havnt hardly woken up in the night since,however they are now 14 and 16 ;)

I have 4 yorkies by the way.

I was always told that the speed with which you house train is in direct proportion to the amount of time you put into the training :) However, I have also heard that smaller dogs take longer to housetrain ..maybe because their bladders are smaller?? I managed to get all 3 of mine clean and dry, day and night in a week to two weeks.

You are right that the more unrestricted access that pups have in the house then they are more likely to pee where the fancy takes them.  When housetraining we are utilising the instinct for pups to keep their living/sleeping area clean. 

For a puppy that may be the area around it's bed or just that room, generally everywhere else is fair game in or out. 

This is I think why small dogs can take longer as the area they consider their nest is smaller.

My pups are only ever unsupervised in the klitchen, they only come in the living room while I am watching them or have them by my side/on my knee.  Not only does this allow them to get the idea about eliminting outsdie but allows the older dogs a vbreak from the pup.  By 12 weeks though they are usually free to come and go in the downstairs with the others.

I'd sooner housetrain and pick up dog poos than change nappies again for two years,!!!!  When I have grandchildren I will not be doing any babysitting that involves nappies :D

All that stuff earlier about house training within days feels a bit competitive to me!  No offense, but people might feel they've failed if they don't crack it that quick ... or think their dogs are a failure or a problem.

>All that stuff earlier about house training within days feels a bit competitive to me!

Only for those who are sad with nothing better to do :rolleyes:

every dog is different.

:D :P