You're at it again MM!!!
"Show" Mals are well capable of all sorts of disciplines.  What most people don't understand is this breed is so much more sensitive than other Sheps ie GSDs, and yes, I am talking from experience, having both GSDs, Mals and Groens!!  The working GSD for example is nothing like the show GSD in conformation (much better imo!!), but the temperament is the same (both my GSDs are working types with fantastic temperaments), on the other hand the working and show Mals seem to have totally different conformation AND different temperaments!  What is going on??   Our breed is going to end up with a very bad name if this carries on!  Look at what's happening to the SBT (another one of my breeds).  It's down to bad ownership and lack of early socialisation.

Sarah.

<You're at it again MM!!!>

What ????? Will someone just tell me what entries you get at Champ Shows ?20 ? 10 ?

So because Mals are so sensitive they go scatty & snarl & attempt to bite people as a norm ? None of the ones at the shows abroad(breed shows that is)were like this so how long does the scatty biting stage last ? The two that came to our club were not scatty they were fear aggressive(we've had a few GSDs & other breeds including a badly bred 12 week old BC puppy that were fear aggressive & in our GSD rescue we have quite a lot that are badly bred & badly socialized fear aggressive dogs that need turning around to rid them of the fear that causes the aggression)why can you not accept the fact that there may be a few FA Mals around that have on paper good show pedigrees ? Litter sister to one of the dogs was shown to some degree of success but with the help of"correctional"training(the words of the owner of the brother not mine)

Obviously not all Mals are like this & neither are all GSDs  or BCs but FA dogs in most breeds do exist(even in a nice breeds like Cavaliers & Beardies)

BTW All working GSDs registered with the SV have to pass a Korung(breed survey)so if the breed judge doesn't pass the dog it's offspring cannot be registered with the SV & ergo cannot compete in Schutzhund I know of one working GSD who has on his pedigree from the Korung that he is too small(hence he failed the survey) so it will be doubtful thet anyone will use him at stud., sad really as he has a great temp & conformation & has been placed in breed in the UK even though he is under the breed standard height. So to say they don't resemble the "show"SV dogs is a bit misleading as none would pass the Korung if they didn't & no one breeds from dogs in Germany without the pink pedigree

I doubt Mals will get a bad name as we lost a few members when we had the two at our club & when asked why they stated they didn't like the nasty brown thin GSDs that were at the club 99 % of the public don't know the different between any of the Belgians & GSDs, When I was showing an all black GSD bitch at Crufts the opposite happened when a Group judge of the pastoral breeds asked me where the Belgians ring was I got a very dirty look when I told him I didn't know as he assumed the correct coated bitch was a BSD(she had a CC & Res CC) !!! Some hope for the Gen Public knowing the difference as most won't even know the BSD & DSD exist

Hi

I have to admit I am getting really confused now! Having read all the posts from Ian, Teri, MM and others I am more confused than when I began reading! I am myself looking between three breeds GSD, BSD and standard poodle.  My lab is now 9 and will need to retire from his agility within the next year.  I have been put off the GSD by very knowledgable people, because they say the breed is now so poor.  Surely there must still be some decent breeders out there who breed for the good of temperment and soundness of structure?  I have looked into BSD for the last year, everything I hear seems to point to them been nervous and easily agitated?  I really would appreciate some advice on these two beautiful breeds, because having read the posts I am thinking I am going to end up with a dog that bites my hand off!!  Seriously, any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks

There are lots of good breeders but it depends what you class as good conformation, for me if a GSD is sound in movement at all speeds & when posed naturally without being propped up nor strung up & that has a good temperament, it cannot be all bad

Any breeder who signs the GSD breed council's breeders charter should be a responsible breeder & it is worth contacting the Breed Council, I do not think you will find many of the fans/breeders of non standard colours & coats(as well as breeders who do not health test their dogs & who do not breed to the current breed standard nor one off breeders)will  have signed the charter, but it is a starting place

Thanks Moonmaiden
I am not bothered about the colour of the dog, for me what is important is finding one that has a good temperament and that won't have the health problems many seem to be having.
I appreciate your link for the breed council, it is my biggest worry that I will not know who is a good breeder or not.  I am just looking for a good, sound dog, looks are of no importance to me.  I have no intention of showing the dog.
Thanks for your advise.

Hi tango,
I've sent you a private message.

Sarah.

Hi Sarah

I haven't received a message from you privately,maybe you haven't sent it yet?
I am looking forward to reading it.

Many Thanks

hello Tango

I have had BSD for over 20 years and am currently owned by 6 ( 5 Groens and 1 'surprise' Terv ). They are the most amazing, versatile,responsive breed around and are capable of turning their paw to almost anything. My own dogs are capable of winning at Champ show level, do agility,obedience and Pets as Therapy work as well as being much loved members of our family. Others work as assistance dogs, mountain rescue and a couple even work sheep.

There SHOULD be no difference between the show type and the working type of Belgian and indeed the top winning show kennel has also produced a Groenendael obedience Champion, There is a team of BSD competing at this years Agility Championships , many of whom are from 'show 'lines. Mary Ray's Ob Ch Tervueren has also won a Res CC thus proving that in this breed you can have brains and beauty.

HOWEVER they are a sensitive breed - they like to think things through and their temperament can be ruined by forceful or thoughtless training. They will be one step ahead of their owner if allowed to be and need someone with the energy and commitment to cope with their intensity. They are NOT a restful option but a busy buzzy curious fantastic worker.

Log on to www.agilitynet.com and get some info on their increasing popularity as agility dogs and also ask about other breeds that ypoou might consider.

Finally - if you do decide on a Belgian PLEASE go to a reputable breeder ( recommended by our breed club) a poorly bred BSD can be a timebomb !!!.

Yvonne

Thanks Yvonne.  Yes, there popularity in agility is certainly rising fast. I don't like the collies being bred small so that classify as midi either, but thats another topic!
I guess the main thing to do is to find some really good breeders, this is the hard part as I don't know how you tell! Apart from steering clear of the ones where the dogs don't look healthy and where they are left outside and not socialised at all?

Always go throught the breed clubs and check out what the breeding code of ethics is and ensure that any breeder you deal with uses this as a minimum.

I have a Terv, who has worked out in public as my Assistance Dog, does agility (well) and comes out of show lines.  He is  high drive, manic and as lots of people will tell you has a work ethic to kill for.  I've been offered a lot of money for this dog by people in *private security* work - (refused point blank), as he has beaten trained sniffer dogs to a find.  I was told I was wasting him.  We did some showing with him, but he prefers to be on the move at a faster pace - so we migrated to agility.  What a fun dog - he is friendly, outgoing and will protect me with his life - of that I'm sure.  What more could any person want?  I have met a couple of these so called working Mals - and the handler wouldn't let anyone anywhere near them, they growled as soon as looked at a person and went raving mad when catching a glimpse of a dog.  Give me showlines anyday if that is what working lines are becoming!

Hi,
    well said, you sound to be a true working dog enthusiast.

                                Ian

Hi we do agility with our rough collies and they love it, smooth collies are an excellent breed for agility as well.

Sadly there are few soing it in UK, but in the USA Agility is very popular with Elkhound owners.  The first year it was officailly recognised as a titling event by the AKC the top Agility dog was a Norwegian Elkhound bitch, who sadly died just recently at 15 years of age I beleive.  It would be lovely if more people did thigns with the breed.

In the right hands I think that Spanish Water Dogs will give BC's a run for their money :d  Though they have to go to a home that understands working dogs and does put in the time.  But to be truthful I would say that any dog does no matter what size. 

Pomeranian's are doing quite well but they are a small breed, even some of them can be very active and you would have to put quite a lot of work into them.

LOL I think SWD would be great agility dogs as long as there weren't any water jumps :D

Well I wouldn't suggest a Boxer as they can be mad and love exercise :D
But they are pretty good at agility when trained, know of a few that do compete
and do well.
I hear that Australian Cattle dogs are becoming quite popular in agility circles.

Hmm most breeds that I can think of would probably require lots of exercise
but harnessing their energies in Agility you'd probably have a whale of a time.
A friend has an Old English Sheepdog and she used to do agility with her.
She's large, friendly and sociable but MAD :D

Kind Regards
Kirstine

The Cattle Dogs are one of the most popular breeds in Agility in the USA.  With their low centre of gravity and sturdiness they are not prone to some of the injuries and have a great deal of stamina.  My own breed have Agility and stamina also.  There is more to Agility than speed alone.

The latest fashion is agility is very small BC's I know several breeders who have been asked to breed small BC's so they can run in the Midi classes in agility ! Thank goodness they all said no ! I think Midi's have to be under 15 " ? if so they would be b awful BCs that size

Lol, I would love a midi collie! They have to be under 17", I know 1 kennel has 2 dogs that compete in agility at midi height, and another breeder last year was selling 3 of hers because they were too small for the show ring, and she is now selling 2 from the repeat mating because they are also too small for the show ring! The height of show bc's does seem to have got smaller, my 2 collies (dog and bitch) are both 20", the bitch is from show lines and the dog is ISDS, if I got another 1 I'd either want a midi or a "proper" size one ie about 20", not the 18" ones which seem to be more and more common.

midis at the moment are between 15-17 " above that is standard, 15" and below is mini

Thanx I for that I was going the size of the dogs in the ring Hence people wanting little BCs 15 to 17 inches is far to small for a BC My first BC was a very small bitch & she was the only puppy bitch in the litter so I had no choice as all my other dogs were bitches & I didn't wnat to get a dog to upset the matriarchal household we then had. 

Im going to attempt agility with Douglas (boxer), but his breeder things he will be far to big. Going through A frames instead of over them.

LOL Emma there are Great Danes doing agility & classes for "anything but a collie" dogs

I think most large breeds require a lot of exercise. Why not get a medium or small dog?

Not mine who have both spent a brilliant weekend doing agility on dane sized equipment of course!
But have only just woken up after a 48hr snooze lol lazy boogers!

I used to do agility with my Leo and she loved it and also obedience and did everything well.  My rottie also loves agility however they are both breeds that take a bit longer doing the weave compared to say a Border Collie :)

Well I have sold two Standard schnauzers to agility home one is doing rully well winning a class off over a 100 other dogs.
Most dogs used for agility are border collies or working sheepdogs but if you watch Crufts on tv most light framed dogs can do it depends on the level you wish to go?
If its just for fun a X-breed but if you are looking to go on to Champ show standard then look into working lines you need a breed or dogs that is fast as well as sound you should not start any heavy or high jumps on young dogs had a friend many years ago used to do agility with a greyhound.
There is also the mine agility for smaller breeds where you get a lot of shelties and Min Schnauzers takeing part !!

Taking my Ickle Man to his first agility class on Monday and can't wait.  He loves his tunnel at home and dives over my other dogs no problem so hopefully he should do well.  Hopefully his daddylonglegs won't be too much of a hinderance.

Lots of breeds enjoy agility.  My Lab had loads of fund.  Our instructor had only one caveat for would be serious agility competitors.  She said if we didn't get a Jack Russell or a Border Collie, then for heavens sake don't get a dog that would end up being in the same size category.  LOL.  There was one dog in our class for which we all decided agility was probably dangerous.  She was a Bassett Hounds and when she got up on the dog walk her ears hung down below the board.  Then, if she turned her head, her ears draped across the top of the walk and we were afraid she might step on them, trip and fall off.  She didn't come back for the second session.

Yeah it is great fun - we have a totally crazy Bull Terrier at our club who just crashes through all the jumps, rolls around in the tunnel and stops at the top of the A - Frame to give everyone a big grin. For sure she'll never win any competitions but she's having the time of her life. All sorts of breeds can do it ( as long as they are old enough for the jumping - not too sure about the long backed breeds though they tend to have disc problems anyway and agility might make this worse - does anyone do agility with Dacshunds ?

Yvonne