hello My names Julie Hoggett and i am looking for a breed to do agility with.

I dont want a breed that requires loads of exercise, or is mad!
But would want the dog to be capable of agility.
Im looking for a friendly, sociable, large sized breed. --------any suggestions?
I love the leonberger, but would they be able to do agility?

P.s i understand that large breeds bones are sensitive and need time to grow, so wouldnt be able to start agility til 2 years of age.

Julie
Wargrave , South east.
07742066440

leonbergers are probably on the large side for agility safely!!
i suggest a golden retreiver or lab!

http://www.leonberger.com/WorkingLeos/agility/agilityhome.html

There we go a whole website dedicated to leonbergers and agility!

Well....hands down, no debate about it....the best breed for agility is a Border Collie, top of the intelligence list and unbelieveable dogs. However, they do need tons of exercise.

I've seen some pretty good little dogs at agility class that I take my Doberman to....Shelties are quick and have great dispositions. Poodles are good too, fast, agile, good jumpers and smart!

Dobermans are pretty good too, but they do take a long time to mature and those quick growing, large boned dogs you do have to be careful with for a while. He does low jumps, even though he's capable of higher, just to protect his young bones. He's 8 months. I'm suppose to be careful with him until he's 18 months.

What breeds to you like besides the agility factor?

Those are a few ideas you can look up online. If I think of something else I'll let you know, and I'm sure someone else will come up with some ideas too.

Carrie

I don't know that you'll get much speed out of a Lab. But they are sure willing. The trouble is, that a lot of breeds with speed and agility and the exuberance to be good at agility happen to be dogs who need quite a bit of exercise. I don't think they're all like that though. But a lot are. There's a Rodesian Ridgeback in my class and my goodness, that dog has drive!!!! Speedy Gonzalas. Hey, I know! How about a Whippet or a Greyhound. I've heard that Greyhounds are great pets, supposed to have beautiful, sweet dispositions and they apparently need one quick burst of exercise, not long lasting and they're couch potatoes the rest of the day. I read about them in my dog magazine. I'm not sure how they do at agility. Maybe they don't have the stamina....don't know...never saw one doing that. But you could check it out. Wouldn't it be great to rescue one?

Carrie

Border Terriers. Shetland sheepdogs, Cavaliers all do well in agility or what about a rescue X breed puppy there are quite a few X breeds doing well in agility

Very large dogs lose out on speed but can gain in accuracy, but the medium to small breeds are more successful in the UK

Herding dogs are good. Here, check out this site.

http://www.shopanimalnetwork.com/product.asp?3=34

Carrie

A Spanish Water Dog could be a good option!!! 

Hi Julie

Well as mentioned earlier the best dog for agility is a order collie, but that does need lots of exercise not only physically but also mentally.

What about one of the belgian sheepdogs - Tervueren, Malinois, Groenendaal and Laeknois, they are all large dogs and I'm sure they would be good with agility.

I personally have a lab myself and am going to try agility just for fun.

Jeanette

Hi,  I do agility with my Stafford, he enjoys it, and is good at it.

Michelle.

That's fantastic! That's what agility is for.....FUN. There are all kinds of dogs in my agility class, the majority border collies, but there are a couple of cock-a-poos, (too cute) a ridgeback, (she's really good!) a sheltie, a golden retriever or two, and my dobe. He's speedy and agile, very flexible, but still young and kind of clutzy. LOL. But it is fun and it does make a more confident dog and such great socialization for them. I'm glad you're having a good time with your Stafford.

Carrie

Hi,
   I have an 8 month old male Malinois from working lines up for re-homing. He has been raised by the police so he is extensively socialised and good natured.

He is tall, athletic and quite lively. He is not suitable for breeding but would make an excellent agility dog. He likes playing with a ball and is food motivated so a transition to a clicker would be no problem.

The quality of the home is the most important aspect of this rehoming for me. Please no time wasters as the home would hopefull have a proven track record with high drive dogs.

                                      Ian

Ian

Have you contacted Agility Net ? They have a section for rehoming & he sounds like a good prospect for agility/obedience etc

If you PM me I can cross post onto an obedience e group & this message of yours might be deleted as it breaches the TOS of this forum BTW

border collies german shepherds golden or flat coat retreievers australian shepherd belgian shepherd nova scotia duck tolling retreiver theres a few i can think off

Hi,
    my apologies for breaching the TOS. I will not feel hard done by if the post is removed. I have PM'd MoonMaiden privately.

                                                                Thanks

                                                                                Ian

Hi I do agility and now flyball with my Staffie and she adores it.

Just a quick warning - if you want a  Belgian for agility do NOT get one that has been bred for high drive man work - these dogs do not have the typical Belgian temperaments and would be highly dangerous in the hands of most owners ( they are also very untypical in looks and size and strength) - PLEASE contact the breed clubs for reputable breeders of our lovely breed. - I'm not saying anymore :(.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne,

The mal's that I've seen competing in agility at the FCI world champs seem a lot more slimmer and much more high drive and faster. Briarquests mals seem to be more like the FCI ones, if I was to get a mal I would prefer one from this breeding as they seem so much more agile and quick.

Char

What a load of old tripe!

If you mean that the working dogs are higher drive than usual then yes they are, if they are more sparky than usual then yes they are. If you want a dog that is like an intnese WSD in shepherd type clothing then yes thats your dog.

However, if you know how to handle high drive dogs then why not use the lines that are used out in Europe in agility and obedinece, true working lines not dogs that have been diluted down for appearance sake to appeal more on aesthetics for a show bench than to do a real job of work.

There are quite a few working strain Belgians in Comp obedience now and even one of the more renowned clciker training seminar holding people has bought one for obedience from pure working european lines.

As I say, if you have a proven track record with high drive dogs, particularly WSD's then working strain Mals are a doddle.

                                                    Ian

Ian - I have no wish to get into a slanging match with you over this - you obviously feel that your quest to breed "tough characters ....so that even the females can be used for street work" ( quoted from your own website) is perfectly ok. I and the overwhelming majority of the BSD fraternity in this country do not agree, and we have no wish to have our breed added this country's list of 'dangerous dogs'.

All Belgians will work, my own Groenendaels do obedience, agility, showing and Pets as Therapy work - most breeders will have pups from their litters that go to a wide variety of homes including working - this is one breed where there should not be a 'working' and 'showing' type.Most BSD breeders aim to breed a stable trustworthy temperament that will fit into the average family home - I think you must agree that your dogs would  not fit this description.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne,
              so given what it says on my website we should also say that given that WSD's are bred to eye stalk and nip then nobody should have WSD's or that givent hat the vast majority of police dogs in the UK are German shpeherds then nobody should buy or train a GSD.

As I say its a load of old tripe. The reason that most BSD dog breeders don't want the working strain here in the UK is that just like most other breeds where there is a massive split between working and show strains that people don't want showing up.

I have lots of dogs working the streets of the UK as police dogs, to my knowledge there are just two of the other strain working on the streets and countless rejected.

If anyone is in any doubt about this or any of my dogs then I am more than happy to put them in touch with the police officers who have raised them since they were pups.

These dogs are not brough up to be anti social or even bite machines, they have stable and even temperaments but they are true working dogs not just pleasing to the eye.

                                              Ian

Ian,
The original function of the BSD was never for anything other than guarding livestock from predators - it was not intended as a breed for man-work ;)  Let's not kid ourselves, what you're referring to as high drive is not the original drive innate to ANY variety of the BSD.  
Several well bred BSD have excelled in obedience competition, going on to their championships, none being from the lines to which you allude.  No need for a split in the breed between working and show type as several of those bred by responsible breeders across the varieties have already proven themselves to be multi-functional dogs.  We can currently breed a dog that can be moulded to suit many challenging situations without sacrificing the dinstinct physical appearance & natural characteristics of the typical BSD - unlike some of the frankly hideous specimens solely bred for inappropriate purposes.  More importantly, *every* BSD should be bred with the primary intention of being capable of living in a family environment.  Had you true knowledge, understanding & caring of the breed in mind that would not even need to be pointed out!  regards, Teri

<Several well bred BSD have excelled in obedience competition, going on to their championships, none being from the lines to which you allude.>

How many were Mals ?

quite a few ticket handlers have young mal dogs at the moment,i willbe interested in seeing them,
they are quite big (stunning though)

The original purpose of GSD's was not to do manwork, the original purpose of Rottweilers was not to do manwork, the original purpose of Parson Russel terriers was not to fit in to a 3 bed semi in suburbia with 2.4 kids and as you so rightly point out the original purpose of the Malinois was not to be preened and fluffed and shampooed and walked around a show ring. Nor was its original purpose even to do agility or obedience. In fact many of the original characteristics of the Belgian Shepherd would make it wholly unsuitable for showing just as with other breeds they have to be softened by breeding to make them docile enough to accept the show ring without question.

However there are certain breeds that have pronounced prey drive and suspicion and these dogs have been utilised by humans for a number of years to perform tasks other than those for which they were orignaly bred.

The very basic and workmanlike attitude of the Belgians and Dutch towards their dogs leads me to believe that their intention was not to breed a dog who's primary function was to be a pet.

My dogs would never win a show and truthfully I am really happy with that. But when I get a call from a police dog handler who tells me that the dog bred by me saved his life then that makes me ecstatic.

At the end of the day there are lots of breeds out there that we now expect to live as family pets, but believe me if you do your research and look at the original specimens still performing orginial functions in their country of origin they are a far cry from the dogs you would so happily want living in your house.

                             Ian

Ian, you (not singlehandedly of course) have chosen to corrupt a breed of dog - that it is acceptable in certain fields such as Police work is sadly true.  However that a breed which on average produces a litter of 8 + puppies will all find themselves to be ideal full time "working" dogs is unlikely.  Because of the ruination in some cases of the GSD health and temperament, they now want Malinois - but they've got to make them much bigger, heavier and tougher than the breed is naturally.  The correct size, build and temperament is hardly likely to raise an eyebrow of a criminal after all.

Everything else aside, if the "bred specifically for working" Malinois has to be bigger, stronger, more highly driven, why bastardise this existing breed to bear no resemblance to it's original physical nor temperamental make-up?  That you and some others enjoy and CAN control them is one thing - but it does the breed en masse no favours and is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands and some, maybe not yours, will end up there!  regards, Teri

Hi,
    look in any book on GSD's or BSD's from more than 100 years ago then tell me that they resemble the current breed standard!

Unfortunately the KC and even the FCI seem to believe that they invented all dogs by writing breed standards. But lets see do breed standards really work.

My sides split every year when I watch crufts and those stupid commentators witter on about the perfect working abiltiy of the giant fat labrador waddling around the ring or the cocker spaniel who has so much hair that if he ever did an honest days work he would just be a mass or thorns and burrs and with his wide baggy eyes would end up blind with one venture into a club of nettles, or the GSD whos back was moddeled on a alpine ski slope or should be mention the bulldog who if he saw a bull would probably collapse short of breath before he had walked more than 5 yards to get to it.

Breed standards, just read the above, what a load of old tosh they are. If we wnat to look at the wholesale destruction of dog breeds just watch crufts.

                       Ian

Hi again Ian,

>look in any book on GSD's or BSD's from more than 100 years ago then tell me that they resemble the current breed standard!<

I agree to an extent about GSD (but admit to have little in depth knowledge whatsoever on the breed - merely a visual preference for the Germanic type dog <LOL>).  The BSD has changed little and it is after all BARELY 100 years old, was almost entirely wiped out during both WW and so virtually reinvented on each occasion - hence current "breed type" that very intangible trait and set of criteria which make a breed of dog unique from another - is not too far removed from what we see nowadays. 

On the whole, I agree with your description of tv commentary type waffling and that many breeds of dog could not perform the function for which they were created.  The function for which the BSD was created, however, was to protect flocks of animals in remote areas from other predatory animals - not called for much these days ;)  Teri

>Unfortunately the KC and even the FCI seem to believe that they invented all dogs by writing breed standards.

Actually, the KC don't write any breed standards. They're all written by the members of the breed club - after all, they're the ones who know the breeds best.
:)

Hi,
    its comforting to  know that the people who show dogs can dictate to the rest of us how our dogs should look and behave.

As I say if you want to see the wholesale destruction of any working breed, just watch Crufts.

I hope to god they never re introduce wolves in to Belgium and southern Holland as people may have to eat thier words. At the moment all sheep and goats in that region are safe from predatory water voles.

                    Ian

I judged a working bred Mal in obedience a couple of weeks ago & what a lovely happy dog he was Loads & loads of "oomph"& attitude to spare quite a young dog & he did a training round in my class as he is only just starting out with a handler who previously worked GSDs & does schutzhund with them.This Mal was so confident unlike the two show bred ones that came to our club that were fear aggressive & frightened of their own shadows

Contrary to 99 % of show & obedience people who think Schutzhund is all about the bite it is all in fact about working as a team & control. The temperament test isn't a pat on the head & is a test of dog to dog & dog to human & to fail the TT in schutzhund means you & the dog fail the test, any aggression is severely frowned upon

I would have jumped at the chance of this dog as I am used to working with ISDS BC's with very high drive & believe me they are a lot harder to train than the obedience/show bred dogs , but I have a BC puppy being bred for me from two high drive ISDS BC & I would not be able to give enough work to two such dogs becuase of my health

I have hard high drive schutzhund bred GSDs & their temperaments have been faultless & much calmer & self assured that show bred GSDs of any type.

Hi MM,
I generally have respect for much of your opinion but have to say in this instance I really wish you would have done a bit more research on the specific problems with the so-called "working" lines Malinois that are being bred by (thankfully) a very small minority in the UK.  Perhaps then you would not be so quick to put them in the same category as Schutzhund GSD - believe me, they're not :rolleyes:
There are HIGHLY respected Malinois breeders of well known affixes in the UK who have bred multi-purpose dogs, very capable of working in a variety of fields.  They not only work but live happily as family dogs AND still look like Malinois!
That you've met a couple of scatty ones - so what? - every breed has them and responsible breeders do their best to breed and socialise to avoid this innate trait of what is a sensitive and *crucially* a very primitive breed.   Come to the Malinois ring at any general Champ show and you're highly unlikely to meet anything but a bold, friendly and exuberant dog - I know, I've judged them many times.   regards, Teri 

Hi Teri

I know a lot less about Mals than you lol, but I am just saying my opinion of them :D I am not in the position to be able to have one at the moment, but maybe will in the years to come.

I haven't seen any Malinois from "working lines" in the UK. I've only seen them abroad. They have done brilliantly on the continent in agility and they seem to be much more agile and have higher drive than the ones I have seen from "show" lines in the UK. The ones in the UK that I have seen (from the "normal" lines) are nice, but havent got that extra spark, they aren't really fast, aren't really agile and don't seem to have tons of drive. What is bad about the "working" lines from the dogs in the UK? If I was to get one I would really want one from FCI lines as totally prefer that kind of Mal - is that not a good idea?

Thanks

Char

These two dogs were NOT scatty BTW they were fear aggressive (& in my opinion a danger if out in public unmuzzled & I am not one for muzzling dogs but they only came to our club because thay had had several near biting misses) & not on their own in the Mals I have met in the UK which were far more than these two bred by one of your top kennels from some of the top dogs in Mals ! Thank god they others were just scatty

FYI the working Mals I have met apart from the one I had in an obedience class number over 100 not just here in the UK but abroad as well & all doing Schutzhund & all well adjusted On the occasions I have met these dogs I was on the sidelines watching & as you will be aware watching from outside  is not the same as being inside doing the judging & yes they did all look like Mals from a conformation point of view. How do you know what the mal looked like that I judged ?(well had in my ring as they trained the round)? He was a dog brought in on a PP which is why I cannot remember his name do you know every single Mal in the UK ? If so can you provide me with his name, as a friend has borrowed my catalogue from the show, & his breeding. As I am a breed & obedience judge(very rare nowadays I know)& I have been ground a long long time & until fairly recently(last 15 years)only ever had pastoral breeds so used to see lots of other pastoral breeds at Ch Shows-never saw very many Mals tho'). You have no respect for any of the dogs I have met by the sound of it & these have included several dual Ch breed & Schutzhund dogs abroad ! Obviously there are no Mal Breed Champions in the UK as far as I am aware. Are you saying that the UK Mals are better than the dogs I have seen abroad ? In Belgium etc ?

<I really wish you would have done a bit more research on the specific problems with the so-called "working" lines > where  pray did I mention I had done any research ??????? I am quoting from personal experience not paper research

If I was to go to a Ch show on Pastoral days no doubt I would some round the BSD rings & have a look at your representatives their On avaerage how many dogs do you get entered at Ch Shows 100 ? 150 ?

A somewhat antagonistic response MM

I had assumed you would realise that personal, in-depth knowledge of a foreign breed (particularly one's own) both at home and abroad was not exclusive to you?  Simple misunderstanding no doubt - although your self proclaimed expertise in the variety falls short of knowing they've only been awarded CC status as of 2006 hence no UK Champions just yet.  Perhaps you're recalling the 5 year period during KC enforced AVBSD status when several won RCCs over their more numerous & glamorous cousins and earlier still one being placed in the Crufts Working Group?  Hardly timerous beasties as I recall.

*Respected* UK breeders DO use *approved* dual purpose SR/RE Continental dogs in their breeding although, unlike some exclusively "working" kennels, there will be no "blacks", "brindles", or 28/30 inch dogs to be found among them as of course they don't remotely meet the Breed Standard - neither FCI or UK.

continued on post below:

part 2 of post to MM

FYI, a few UK bred Mals shown on the Continent have excelled themselves, awarded SR, RE, CACs and at least one BIS.  Our breed Ch. shows (often larger entries than Crufts) have top Continental Specialists officiating and the BOB Malinois has often gone on to beat one or both of the more prolific varieties so they clearly have the approval of experts from their country of origin for TYPE and CHARACTER - even if they don't meet with yours <LOL>.

But as you clearly have a penchant for Ian's "type" of dog there's no point in our discussing this further - "Dennis" is one of his fans too so you can exchange meaningful opinions of desirable "working" Malinois traits with him instead :rolleyes: Teri

Hi,
   it does not matter what country a show judge is from they are still a show judge looking for show traits. Its like the German bundeseiger is different from the WUSV world championships as one os work for show GSD's and the other is work for working GSD's

Why does the same breed have to be examined in two seperate competitions. Basically because the working dog is too ugly to win a show and the show dog lacks enough drive to win against a true working strain dog.

On the continent SAR etc is where the softer Mals excel as there is no real stress on them and they have more than enough drive to merely search often it is a job reserved for bitch's who are far softer than males.

The German police have now changed to Dutch Herders and Malinois for every GSD that retires.  They are not flocking to Belgian and Dutch show kennels for these dogs.  Go to a ringsport championship or the Dutch KNPV championships and that is where you see police and armed forces from all over the world making contacts to buy their next dogs.

                                                       Ian

Ian,

>They are not flocking to Belgian and Dutch show kennels for these dogs<

Clearly not - you're preaching to the converted here.   There is after all NO such thing as a "pure bred" black or brindle Malinios :D :D :D    Perhaps if they call them Mali-poos they'll get even more money for them :rolleyes:

Teri

The correct term for a Dutch working strain Malinois is a xMechelse Herder. Some but very few are black due to the influence of a Groen that won the KNPV championships a few years ago.

I think you will find that a brindle dog is never reffered to as a Malinois it is in fact a Dutch Herder or a xHollandse Herder.

                                         Ian

I think you will find that Dennis is certainly no fan of mine nor am I am fan of him.

                                       Ian

Strange - he was recommending you only recently under one of his many pseudonyms  

He may reccomend a product I sell but he does not reccomend my company or me. If you feel me and Dennis are friends I could quite happily send you a copy of my solicitors bill just to prove we are not fans of each other.

                          Ian

Solicitor's bill?

(I have to say, I'm not surprised <g>)

Lindsay
X

What ? All I did was ask how many entries you got at Ch Shows as I never look at their entries as I don't have a pastoral breed & I never look at Cavaliers as they always have entires over 200.

I have no "penchant" of either type except I certainly wouldn't want one from the kennels that bred the two dogs(from different litters & two different owners)that came to own club I wouldn't want a mal as a first choice of dog, as my favourite breed are ISDS BC's (not show or agility or obedience or schutzhund or bred for any other purpose)ISDS dogs from the lines I like are very high drive &will succeed in any "sport"except perhaps breed as they are bred for what's inside their heads & not how pretty they are. I prefer the inner dog, if I didn't I would have a BC puppy by now having been offered several from breeders when they knew I had lost my BC's last year, how even I am  prepared to wait for what I want inside the dog & not just the extrenal appearance

I speak only from personal experience & from the Dutch shepherds I have seen they too can have high drive, having been to a few of their club meeting & events in the Netherlands over the past 15 years, I only live a stone's throw from the ferry so a trip to Holland & Belgian is like popping down to London & I often travel there for the weekend along with friends who are into dog sports with their GSDs & also to visit friends with both BC, BSD & DSD

<Our breed Ch. shows (often larger entries than Crufts) >Your breed Ch shows have more entries that Crufts gosh I didn't know there were over 10,000 Mal or BSD in the country(TIC) that must be some show I would have thought it would have high the dog press for one breed to have such a huge show I am impressed. If you mean you get more entries in your breed at your breed club shows well so do a lot of breeds Cavaliers had nearly 500 entries at their club show this year Crufts was only in the average Ch sh class of between 250 & 350. Of course the dogs do have to be placed at Ch Shows(or win stud book numbers in WT or Obedience)to be eligible to be entered at Crufts whereas at Breed & general Ch shows any KC breed registered dog can be entered

If you don't like what the dogs look like fine, but as the police dog handler who had a black son(who was a show winning dog under Germany judges) of my import told me"I have your dog to thank for saving the life of a pensiner with Alzheimers who had gone missing & that is worth a millions times more that a card at a show" You would have disliked the dog as apart from being all black he was most definitely the International rather than UK type, the previous dog the police handler  had had was a gifted long coat non pedigree who was retired at 3 due to health probs & he had never had a working bred GSD before & from choise would never have another gifted or non working bred dog again. He was not used to a dog that was always ready & able to work & whose temperament was ultra reliable

You will be aware of all the health issues of your chosen breed etc as they are your favourite breed Where did I say only the dogs I"like"are correct & have no faults ? Only that the dogs I have seen working have all had good temperaments & are under control, which is part & parcel of Schutzhund. Why am I not allowed to compare them to "Schutzhund"working GSDs some of them would not win prizes in breed against the show dog either, but they do have stable characters & are not hyper like a lot of show bred GSDs. I have a little knowledge of the GSD problems & characters (only had them 47 years)& the breed in general I have never said I have an in depth knowledge of the BSD

I am trying to remember if I have seen any Mals working in Ticket obedience but cannot bring one to mind,  Tervuren & Groenendael yes but Laekenois & Malinois no, however as you know there have been Mals in Ticket I must have missed them

As for winning on the Continent well a lot of breeds have gone to the continent & won well including breeds native to the country in which they were shown in, even UK bred GSDs have been graded good & Excellent at shows in Germany(less importance is given to winning CAC/CACIB in GSDs in Germany)including the Seiger. BSDs are not unique in this

Hi
I've been lurking here for a few weeks and have enjoyed a lot of the posts. Having followed this Malinois thread I felt today I had to join in and have my say -as a Malinois owner and new breeder. Moonmaiden, what you don't seem to understand about Malinois is: They tend to go through a scatty phase, when they shy away from people, and can actually act aggressively towards strangers at times -mainly because they guard ther owners and haven't yet worked out when they need to or not. They also grow OUT of this phase, and with proper socialisation and the right sort of owner (actually *very* few peple are suitable for this breed) they change completely. I have seen this over and over again; dogs that at one show will act nervous, then some time later they are the exact opposite.  I would like to repeat Teri's invitation to come and meet the mals at a champ.show. I think you may well be surprised. :) At Crufts this year my bitch was the dog who when we were waiting in the long queue for the shuttle bus would walk up to any stranger, nudge their pockets gently and ask if she possibly could have a treat or if no treat, a cuddle will do! She had a total stranger HUGGING her ON the bus.(And she is quite possibly from the same kennel you refer to -if not, she will be of the same lines.) Yet when she was around a year old, this would have been impossible. It's just a stage! OR the breed in the wrong hands!! I had 20 years experience of Goldens and Cavaliers when I got my first mal but I still needed help with training as I had not understood just how different they are.

As for obdedience Malinois winning tickets, well I personally can't answer that, but I can tell you that the Crufts BOB in 2001 and 2003 (same bitch) has her CDex -and she is far from the only one who works and is shown. This year's Crufts BOB is an agility dog, as was the BB. They're a wonderfully versatile breed, and what I love about them most is just how close they get their owners -tough dogs prepared to guard their owners and family when needed, yet such loving softies!

Does the scatty stage include attempting to bite, actually biting & drawing blood as a person walks past 6 foot away at 3 years of age ? Sorry these dogs were fear aggressive not scatty IMHO. Of course Mals may be different to all other breeds but drawing blood & attacking innocent people & dogs isn't scatty to me & if it part of the breed all I can saw is I am shocked especially was these dogs were not young puppies or juveniles but mature adults & they were at our club for well over a year until the attack on the GSD who was part of a class doing down stays when the Mal bitch attacked whilst she was doing heelwork(on lead) & the classes were separated by a double row of chairs is that scatty ?

CDEx ?  It isn't a title BTW but a qualification, actually any dog that can do the agility & a decent A round in Obedience can get CDEx, my first BC got her CDEx at her first trial aged two having had no training except in the agility as we were still doing obedience(C only)at that stage, & she got her UD Ex at her third trial (she needed the second to get her Qualifying cert for UD at the Ch Trial) so after three trials we had no where to go as she would have had to do a 6 foot scale & only being 14 inches tall I thought it was unfair. She never actually had any WT training except for the agility the tracking was done as part of her SARDA training & her sendaway  as part of her sheep work. My GSDs were all WT trained & show dogs & I know of loads of others who could go into the show ring if their owners wanted to but who prefer to work rather that show their dogs in a breed that is a tad more competitive that Mals. I will ask again how many entries do you get at Champ shows 50 ? 75? 100?

One year at Crufts the BOB was a working SARDA dog in Beardies no less

Goldens & Cavaliers are hardly akin to any pastoral breed let alone BSD, I have only had working bred GSD(no UK lines in any of my dogs BTW) & working bred ISDS BC's(No show dogs in sight & of course all bred for what is between their ears ) & Beardies that were three generations away from the working beardies The cavaliers are the most recent only had them for 15 years. So no doubt I would not be suitable as my dogs have all had a high working drive & needed to be trained in a way that channelled that drive into dog sports(except my 1st BC dog who was a highly successful sheep trialling dog despite having me to hinder him)

Obviously I would not pass muster for a Mal puppy as I have no experience in owning a breed in which youngsters go through a period of puberty & uncertainity as GSDs, Beardies & BCs don't have them Funny mine went through a being silly & juvenile stage but never to the extent they would try & succeed in biting people & other dogs, I don't think I would want a breed were "scatty"meant aggression & unprovoked attacks long after the junvenile stage was over. One of my GSDs who I rescued was very possessive over me, at first, yet he never bit or attacked , or even tries to hurt anyone the way the two mals that came to the club did, he turned out to be a lovely dog after a good bit of re education

Hi Marianne,

Welcome to the Forum - nice to have another BSD enthusiast :)  It's unfortunate that your initial post was treated so dismissively but rest assured, not everyone's like that - there's a good source of information and experience shared here in general.  Hope you're not put off posting again.   Anyway, "lurking" can be painful on the elbows  :P

Best wishes, Teri

Thanks Teri! :) Right now nothing can change my cheerful mood as my Malinois girl safely delivered 8 pups this morning -4 of each sex. :) (Hence this late reply!!)

Marianne

:rolleyes:  whatever MM.   I don't have the time, inclination or experience to provide a correspondence course on the history, function and typical virtues of the breed with you but as previously stated,

>as you clearly have a penchant for Ian's "type" of dog there's no point in our discussing this further - "Dennis" is one of his fans too so you can exchange meaningful opinions of desirable "working" Malinois traits with him instead<

regards, Teri ;)  

Not even to tell me how many entries you get at Ch Shows ? How difficult is that ?

I have NO penchant for any"type"of dog my preference is for the inner dog, otherwise I would own a KC pure show bred BC