I'm very sorry if I've upset anyone, that really wasn't my intention :(

Chloe, the problem i and many others have with alpha rolling is that it can be dangerous advice to give - i personally also have other problems with it, due to the fact that it promotes the usual stuff about being"alpha" and then lead on to dominant dogs and then having to be "dominant" over them and so on. I'm studying right now to be a behaviourist (that means hands on not just academic) and have already been involved in some really interesting cases including one poor woman whose dog kept attacking her; due to advice given she is getting on well and i did not have to recommend any alpha rolling to dominate the dominant dog ;)

I would actually like to ask whether Mal peeps recommend it at all for adult dogs, and also what is their theory behind advising it; although i don't agree, i like to know why people are doing things and can remain polite and agree to disagree. I do think maybe one person who disagreed with the advice came on a bit strong but my post was just my opinion and not meant to annoy or upset. At the end of the day a dog who is a big problem may end up at the behaviourist's usually as a last port of call; so it would be kind of nice if some of us who hope to help others in the future are given a hearing :)

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay,  No you haven't upset me.  It's just as a relative newcomer to this board, I have found some of the responses come across as rather aggressive and I feel like they are saying 'I know everything, you know nothing'!!  Not only that, but such posts are inclined to provoke a response in kind which I feel helps no-one, especially not the poster originally asking the question!  I wasn't joking when I say I know quite a few people who will not post in here having read some of the responses and I am being a bit cautious myself!

Hi Annie, thanks for your reply.
I think it's best to read and re-read posts before replying, I must confess i don't always manage it and sometimes write in a hurry (like now as my dog has a vet appt soon).
Sometimes peeps feel very strongly and I think that is when problems occur, but personally i do always try hard when replying to be supportive and not judgemental.

Cheers, best wishes
Lindsay
~x

Lindsay, you say :

>I would actually like to ask whether Mal peeps recommend it at all for adult dogs

Well I for one have rolled Hudson since he became adult but I *know* him and he knows me more importantly. I have only felt the need to do it twice (Hudson is now 3 years old) .

Malamutes can be an extremely dominant breed, we are not talking a small dog either. Some Mals are more dominant than others, it goes with the territory and should be something that everyone who contemplates buying a Malamute should be made aware of (unfortunately, puppy farmers often give the impression to new owners that Mals are like teddy bears)

I wouldn't recommend that people roll their adult dogs but then no one suggested that in the first place :)

I think the (interesting?) thing is that there are 2 schools of thought (at least!) where dog ownership is concerned. Reading your post the first thing that struck me was that I don't think of any  dog as dominant as such :) Nor do i follow  pack theory (as in owner being alpha) etc. I have done in the past though, i will say. I believe that dominance is more a dog pushing boundaries but not vying for pack leadership. I feel they are like teenagers who can be dreadful but aren't trying to take over the family, or at least we don't interpret teenage behaviour  as such.

Thanks  for your reply Mel :)

Lindsay
X

I know I am jumping in here, not having properly raed this thread but oh boy, Chloe - I have a vision of you "alpha rolling" with Willis

Margot :D

I know it's silly - but I've got tht POETS feeling (Push Off Early Tomorrow's Saturday) :D

Willis is more likely to alpha roll me unfortunately :D :D  He happened to be on the bed earlier and jumped up me in order to put teethmarks in the only thing that (up to now) has no teethmarks already - the lightshade hanging from the ceiling. During his descent he performed an effective "alfa roll" and I ended up on the bed with him stood over me. I shall most definitely reemember not to do that again (see, it works LOLOLOL) :D :D

It is a logical extension of your argument I'm afraid.

Spook has given advice given to her, advice given by an experienced breeder and advice that worked for her. It would have been easy for someone to reply by saying that (for example) ' Don't forget that whilst that may be okay on a puppy, it can be dangerous to try and roll an adult dog'

But oh no, sure as eggs is eggs, we get the usual crowd telling us off as though we are recaltricant schoolchildren. I for one am heartily sick of it.

IF you (general and not personal you) disagree with advice given, fair enough, but try and couch in less patronising terms eh? Telling people that the advice is BAD BAD BAD is not helpful

Mel, was that a reply to me?

Who are "the usual crowd": do you mean me?

Lindsay
X

Not in particular Lindsay :) Oh and the reply was following on from JGs reply to me :)

Quite right. :) As we're told in our breed, known for dominance, it is ALOT easier to teach a pup acceptable behaviour than it is to try to train an 8 stone plus mass of dominance with adult teeth. There is a reason dogs roll onto their backs to submit. Just like with certain dogs you 'have' to be the alpha. People who haven't experienced a pack orientated dog have no comprehension of seeing that dog free of the pressures that come with not knowing the pack hierachy. (Or even a dominant minded dog).
Jan Fennel explains alot about dog communication, but just watching the interaction between your own dogs teaches you so much. For any dog to reach a point where it attacks you something has gone very wrong somewhere. The pups mother would pin it until it submitted. I think people forget that dogs are not human. Training can be fun. I always praise the moment bad behaviour stops because it lifts the mood all around for human and dog.

Chloe, some of us feel the same way with other threads. Ie I feel ganged up on on hunting threads but i don't complain unless people start to get very personal.

As for behavioural advice - you can take your choice from peeps like John (who i think is great by the way and i have lots of time for -in fact i call him a friend) and peeps who are just talking from books, peeps who have experienced certain situations and peeps who are maybe studying and also doing hands on behaviour stuff, plus a lot in between.

We are all going to have an opinion and we are all entitled to have our say.

Lindsay
~x

Oops i think replies are ending up all over the place now.....!!!

Lindsay
X

All I am trying to say is that folk who phrase advice or query others in a nice way are more likely to be taken seriously. You have explained why you queried the advice given and you use smilies and therefore folk are more likely to listen and perhaps ask you questions and heed your advice. Some responses are antagonistic, patronising and very, very critical of folk who have taken time to offer their experiences - and its simply not the way to go about things. Thats all I am saying :)

I think emoticons are really useful - I probably use them too much!! ;) but they can make all the difference when peeps are interpreting posts :)
I do understand where you are coming from, I guess it's hard sometimes for everyone to see their post the way others see them. i know i've posted things and not meant to upset and have been mortified when it's all gone pearshaped :) Maybe we should all be kinder to each other <g>

Lindsay
X

I have three malamutes and have been told by many fellow owners, breeders and dog behaviourists to pin my dogs when they challenge.

I have also used the mouth over the muzzle and the growling over the muzzle.

If something works for so many people, why say that it is horrendous advice? There could have been a much better way to say, please be careful on an unfamiliar or adult dog...

It works for me and everyone else I know who does it :) It doesn't mean to say that it would work for *every* dog, but it isn't fair to make assumptions about advice that is given.

I wouldn't dream of alpha-rolling any of mine (they willingly roll on their backs in front of the fire) because I know it would take me a long time to regain their trust in me. If they were less gentle they might well snap in fear at such violent (in canine language terms) behaviour from me. For that reason it's not something I'd ever recommend to anyone without seeing the dog's behaviour first.

This is so difficult because I know people who support alpha rollling don't realise why others are so upset about it.
I concur with JG :) but also, I would have to say that these days i don't believe in alpha, pack theory or anything like that any more. I used to so i do know about it, but over the years have come to believe along with others that we are deluding ourselves surely, if we try to be "alpha" over a different species animal?

If we go to the wild, alpha rolls are either done in fun and games, or offered by a submissive wolf, or "done" by a very aggressive wolf who is probably out to maim or to kill. That is the history of the roll, so we aren't actually imitating true pack behaviour. What i feel may happen in a human household is that some dogs may understand the human is not out to kill but that its just a "human" thing. It may show the dog the human is very strong or whatever, and the dog may learn not to do a certain thing whilst that human is around, and then loses the habit anyway; but i don't believe the dog actually understands the human is saying "I am alpha".

I think a lot depends too on how things are done - putting a pup on its back could be gentle with tummy tickles, or it could be a very frightening experience, same with hand ove muzzle etc IMO; i put my hand over my BSDs mouth and waggle her head from side to side, but that's not punishmet she adores it :) and i can also use it for just a few seconds to calm, but gently and speaking to her at the time.

Coincidentally i'm going to a workshop about all this in a few weeks :)

Lindsay
X

That's so very true Lindsay. To forcibly 'alpha-roll' in anger (which seems to be what is suggested to stop a puppy doing something) is the 'final warning' before severe injury or death is administered. Do we really want our dogs to think we'd do such a thing? If they do believe we're capable of that, do they trust us or fear us?

It's not something I'd do to a dog who didn't trust me 100% ... but if it trusted me 100% I wouldn't need to do it.
:)

I have watched a woman with a lovely GSD who comes regularly to companion shows locally. She  rolls him when he lunges at other dogs who have a go at him first when she walks him too close past say, 3 terriers all together. I did wonder what was happening at one point as she was on the floor on top of him and staring 2 inches from his face. Someone then said her dog had had a go at another dog. I saw this develop over the summer and now when i see her, she can't even let her dog off the lead or near other dogs because he is anticipating her behaviour to him in the presence of other dogs, so he does his best to see the other dogs off and is more aggressive towards them.
I would also say that dog seems depressed except when he is reacting, and owner seems constantly close to tears.

Lindsay
x

Ok, i seem to have started this, i do apologise......

Im afraid i did post at silly o'clock in the morning and at such times my vocabulary is not what it could be, badly worded post!

BUT, i STILL stand by what i said, although ill agree i could have put it better. i do NOT agree with alpha rolling, and i do not subscribe to pack theory, or dominance theories.

Likewise, i do NOT agree that advising someone via a forum with no knowlege of their dog or their own dog behaviour knowlege is a good thing to do.

I realise i do not have experience of dogs like Mals or Ridgebacks even, but i still do NOT believe that these or any other breed described as having a tendancy towards 'dominance' actually DO. I believe they are determined strong willed dogs who will test the boundaries they are given, and if they find reason NOT to respect their owner/handler then they can indeed be a problem to live with.

But then i know of people who have yorkshire terriers that are a NIGHTMARE to live with for exactly the same reasons.

/me goes to find a post she wrote over a yaer ago about dominance....

Em

Please explain Jeangenie, where exactly was it suggested by either Spook or anyone else that an alpha roll was done in anger

This is really getting ridiculous now :rolleyes:

As I understood Spook's post, she was advising alpha-rolling the puppy as a method of discipline - in this case to cure it of nipping. Therefore it's being done as a 'punishment', not a game. To be effective, it should not be possible to misinterpret it as a game - it's serious stuff. From my own observations, such rolling is only done by a dog (not the mother) who's fed up to the back teeth by pup's antics and is giving its final warning ... the dog is angry.

If we, who are comparatively experienced with dogs, can misunderstand each other, what hope do people who ask for advice stand?

But if (as suggested earlier in the thread) puppies do not see us as "alfa dogs" and therefore the "alfa roll" purpose is lost on them - why would they think they are about to be seriously maimed or killed? Would it not just be an unpleasant action (rather like a water pistol or even saucpan banging) that perhaps discourages the pup? I don't know, I have never used it, but I am interested :)

These behaviours, and reactions to them, are instinctive, not taught - just as human babies are 'programmed' to smile at the time when their novelty is wearing off, and they need to strengthen adults' bond with them, for their own protection. The action is designed to 'soften' the adult. Thus a pup will instictively roll over to defuse aggression - to be forcibly rolled (and we're not talking roly-poly games here - the original post was about discipline) is an aggressive act, no matter who or what does it.

Hi Georgie,
I have to RR and would love to give you any help or advice, Email me at jodidavies69@hotmail.com.
Jodi

We may be missing the point a little bit here.

I have noticed with puppies, whether belonging to the disciplining bitch or not, that they are pinned by the Alpha bitch - low grumble as described and then released with no harm done.  If the puppy continues with annoying bad behaviour it is pinned again - low grumble and released.  This seems to be enough to establish the new pups place is the pecking order and for the most part (you need to continue to watch) the pup is accepted.  The majority of Alpha males ignore pups and the pups leave them alone after a few abortive attempts at play on the pups part.  This is the way our dogs behave and it takes a very accomplished human to mimic this behaviour.

Where is this going?  Without pinning and growling, your pup already knows you are not a dog; you have to establish its place in the pecking order of your pack.  Nipping is usual in most pups and can start as a game.  He is trying you out to see how far he can go and to see where he fits in the scheme of things.  He needs to know his place or he will strive to take a more dominant role.  It takes time but you could try to help him find his place by showing him that the people in your household are the alpha's and beta's and he is the bottom of the pack.  That may sound cruel but if he does become alpha he will want to rule all of you. 

Start here:-  When you come home greet each member of your family with hugs and friendly words.  Ignore your lovely puppy no matter how much he jumps or nips until you have acknowledged the rest of your pack.  Then pet him gently and quietly, trying to keep him on the floor, if he bites you don't shout or yelp just turn your back on him and walk away.  Return to him on your terms, pet him, when you are ready and repeat the turn and walk away without shouting or yelping if he bites you again.  This way you are not rewarding his bad behaviour only reward the good behaviour with quiet cuddles and gentle happy sounds. 

The first week you try this behaviour modification you may find you have a slightly sad looking dog, but when he eventually gets the idea that you are the alpha you will have a loving pet.

Dog-training clubs are an excellent idea; just remember to train your family as well.

Good luck

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

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