Hi All,

This is my first time on this site and feel like I am not alone now, I have a 9 week old Rhodesian Ridgeback and all he wants to do is nip at my hands (God does he hurt!) and has also gone for my face a couple of times, I have tried saying "No" firmly which he doesn't like and goes for me again or starts barking at me!!
I have tried a little tap on the nose or putting him outside/another room for a few minutes but none of this stuff works!
I keep putting it down to him just being a pup and that he just wants my attention.  I am going to start taking him to training school when he has had his last set of injections as he is going to turn into a fairly big dog and I want to be able to control him while he is out.
Georgie

The secret is to be consistent, Georgie! It takes a long time to train away from natural behaviour. When mine have been pups I say "No!" firmly, then "Gently" in a soothing voice. If it carries on I leave the room without saying another thing. Game over. By the time their adult teeth are through they've stopped.

Have you got a copy of "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey? It's full of very useful tips.

Hi Jeangenie,

Thanks for the advise I will have to try just walking away from him - I'll try that tonight & let you know.
I think I will have to go and invest in that book ASAP
Thanks again.

our Staff used to do the same thing and this phase must have lasted a few months, so you're not alone. Dogs explore their world by using their mouths and a by product of this is nipping. It doesnt go away overnight and shouting or smacking doesnt work, both of these I have seen recommended on this forum (shame).
You have to use a firm voice , a firm look and be consistent. Also as has been said, turn your back and ignore them.Also they say to 'yelp' like a scalded cat but this didnt work for us, or replace your hand with a toy, keep putting the toy in their mouth when they nip you. But as I have said it is not a quick fix, it hurts and it is puppiness. That doesnt mean you let them get away with it, you keep trying until you find something that works for you. Believe it or not what worked for us was the phrase 'naughty girl'. I was so fed up one day I just barked it out (pun not intended) and she stopped immediately and looked stunned. Now we use this phrase and a stern voice if we want her to stop something

Actually the last thing you should do is yelp or make any squeaky sound as this will be taken as encouragement. Much better to either distract or walk away

Moonmaiden -
I read about the yelping in a recommended Staff puppy book and also was told this by the chairman of the SBT Club of South Wales. It doesnt act as encouragement, you're trying to mimic the reaction of the mother as this is what she does.... But it didnt work for us!

Coleystaff - do you ever think to wonder *why* it didn't work?  Could it infact be because you can't combine the mother dogs body language from a human body with the yelp?  Yelping can often cause dogs to think 'wayhey. I've found something else I can make the tall two legs do, look at this!'.......

Also many pups are encouraged to play with squeaky toys, and yet not allowed to make the bestest toy of all squeak ...! ;)

to digger,no need to sound so patronising, no I didnt wonder why it didnt work, didnt care really as it must work for some dogs because otherwise it wouldnt be in a recommended breed book or a respected breed expert wouldnt make the suggestion. I suspect these people know more than even you.
Also I am entitled to share these ideas so long as they are not irresponsible or cruel surely that is the point of a forum. I was also honest and said that it didnt work for me.
To Moonmaiden, my Giorgia's mother used to 'yelp' at the puppies, this is only an onomatopeic metaphor because I cant speak dog but that was the nearest word I could use.
I also agreed with the ignoring and walking away and that nipping was a passing puppy phase so although my knowledge may only be small it is correct and very recent so dont treat me like a child please

Yelping  & squealing like a scalded cat are two different things & squealing will in most cases encourage the nipping

I've just read in a breed book to use a rolled up newspaper to correct puppies when they wee or pooh indoors I quote"If you find your puppy transgressing & messing indoors take a rolled up newspaper & strike the puppy hard on the rump"That is in a recently published book on terreirs Just because it's in print it doen't necesarrily mean it works or is right

as I've said , any experience is good providing it doesnt advocate violence or cruelty, I think a rolled up newspaper is a bad idea it encourages violence however gentle the tap is. And I agree it doesnt necessarily mean that if it is in print its right. Although how are people to know the difference,I just think I can express my opinion, especially when I temper it with saying it didnt work, without being patronised, you can disagree with an opinion without being patronising, thats just discourteous and disrespectful 

My post wasn't intended to be patronising - can you define what part of it made you feel like that?  I often find when a method doesn't work it's a good idea to step back and work out *why* as it helps you to modify your technique to acheive success far more quickly than trying random methods.

Seeing as the other poster hasn't responded, here is what I disliked about your post:

"Coleystaff - do you ever think to wonder *why* it didn't work?"

could have been phrased as:

"Coleystaff, perhaps it didn't work because....."

I found your post incredibly patronising, for what its worth.

As did I. I am new to this and am thinking of finding another site.

Aren't peeps forgetting that email discussions are hard enough anyway and that few posts are actually MEANT  to be annoying?

What is wrong with everyone these days? So much bitching and sniping, not to mention being pedantic.

Lindsay

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

The yelping methiod works with sensitive and very young pups, the older more confident ones find it exciting.  Yelping and withdrawing from the game is what the littermates will do, not the Mum.  Most bitches are very good at disciplining their pups and will encourage the shy ones into playing quite rough, but cuff them gently, and in my breed swipe them with their paws if they get too exuberant.

I have found myself the best way to avoid getting teeth sunk into my hand is to keep all hand movements near pup to a minimum, and if they do get my hadnb not to draw it awy, but use the other to gently remove their mouths fom it and say no, and walk away.  This makes the game less rewarding.

Now ith an older mouthy pup I have made the expereince of my hand in mouth very unrewarding.  If pup is very determined I ahve pushed my fist further into their mouth causing them to gag or held my thumb nail into their tongue or palate to prevent them exerting pressure which causes unpleasant sensation to them.  This is with a teenager that is bad mannered and had not learnt the lessons when a baby, not a baby with baby teeth.

I was going to suggest something but don't think I will unfortunately - some people are very rude in response to other peoples comments and if they know everything what are they on the site for? Not all dogs are the same, what works for some doesn't work for others - I don't think people should be so critical and personal to others responses!

Do go ahead Lisa I have been told to respond to any more training requests so go ahead I won't be responding to any more queries like this

Coleystaff

Bitches do not yelp or sqeak they have a special sort of grump which means stop My GSD bitch regularly tells off the cavaliers this way as did my Beardies & GSD bitches that had puppies & then they move away & ignore the puppy. Now dogs(males)usually just keep out of the way of puppies until they grow out of the nipping stage(unless they are very paternal which none of my stud dogs & other dogs were).

The walking away seems to be working for this owner & dog & when I say distraction I don't mean giving the puppy a toy but using training discs or similar which distract the puppy from the owner & allows the owner to walk away

My post seems to have been removed and I am not sure why perhaps someone can advise.  Here it is again fingers crossed.

I have noticed with puppies, whether belonging to the disciplining bitch or not, that they are pinned by the Alpha bitch - low grumble as described and then released with no harm done.  If the puppy continues with annoying bad behaviour it is pinned again - low grumble and released.  This seems to be enough to establish the new pups place is the pecking order and for the most part (you need to continue to watch) the pup is accepted.  The majority of Alpha males ignore pups and the pups leave them alone after a few abortive attempts at play on the pups part.  This is the way our dogs behave and it takes a very accomplished human to mimic this behaviour.

Where is this going?  Without pinning and growling, your pup already knows you are not a dog; you have to establish its place in the pecking order of your pack.  Nipping is usual in most pups and can start as a game.  He is trying you out to see how far he can go and to see where he fits in the scheme of things.  He needs to know his place or he will strive to take a more dominant role.  It takes time but you could try to help him find his place by showing him that the people in your household are the alpha's and beta's and he is the bottom of the pack.  That may sound cruel but if he does become alpha he will want to rule all of you. 

Start here:-  When you come home greet each member of your family with hugs and friendly words.  Ignore your lovely puppy no matter how much he jumps or nips until you have acknowledged the rest of your pack.  Then pet him gently and quietly, trying to keep him on the floor, if he bites you don't shout or yelp just turn your back on him and walk away.  Return to him on your terms, pet him, when you are ready and repeat the turn and walk away without shouting or yelping if he bites you again.  This way you are not rewarding his bad behaviour only reward the good behaviour with quiet cuddles and gentle happy sounds. 

The first week you try this behaviour modification you may find you have a slightly sad looking dog, but when he eventually gets the idea that you are the alpha you will have a loving pet.

Dog-training clubs are an excellent idea; just remember to train your family as well.

Good luck

I've not bred many litters but the mother yelping isn't something I've ever come across - mine have always held the miscreant pup's head (or muzzle when they're bigger - even adult!) gently but firmly in their mouths and softly growled ... Instant good behaviour from one chastened and apologetic pup!
:)

This advise is a great help, as what ever I was trying wasn't really working, I think me walking away from him might help I have tried giving him a toy while he is trying to nip me, he then goes for that for a little while then turns back on my hands, I will be trying all suggusted on him tonight.
I have managed to get him to sit before each meal, so he is leaning and understanding, so fingers crossed, thats if I still have fingers left!!!
Thanks again

yes our Giorgia used to do the toy thing as well, try turning your back on him very suddenly as well, that might work.I use this even now shes 11months not for nipping though because she doesnt do that anymore thank goodness . If not then try the walking away.

best of luck to you!!

Remember Georgie, it will take time and patience and honestly, don't expect nipping to stop for quite a while, ie weeks and weeks ;)

Lindsay
X

Well when I got in last night I tried the walking away as soon as he went for my hand, had to do this so many times but after an hour or so I was able to stroke him without him going for me for a good few minutes - this is great progress, and will be keeping this up as he is starting to learn, thanks again.

I was advised to let out a loud 'OWW!' and it worked in conjunction with other things. It certainly didn't encourage any of my lot when they were pups. I follow the old faithfuls in my breed....
1.) The only word your dog needs to know is 'No', it doesn't speak human so don't wind yourself up trying to reason with a pup :)
2.) put the pup on it's back and hold it there....(a few of us will admit to pinning and growling in alpha canine mode but this may cause bizaare looks from your peers ;) )
3.) Hold the pups muzzle firmly, but gently, underneath placing your mouth on the top of the muzzle...hold for 10 secs and release. I've yet to meet the dog/pup whose ears did not drop as the calm straight down and lick your face in submission.

Remember to praise the pup the minute he/she stops/hesitates mid bad behaviour, it'll make both of you feel better than a group sulk ;)

Please PLEASE do not follow Spooks 2/ 'put the pup on its back and hold it there' plan..... BAD BAD BAD HORRENDOUS advice.

Number 3/ is also a fairly bad plan, might work, might just seem like a fun game for your pup.

Your pup finds it rewarding and challenging to nip and bite. Its a learning process and if you DO NOT reward the pup for doing this, he will stop eventually.

Be consistant at all times, teeth meeting skin even just gently should mean you get up and walk away, end of game.

Such techniques as 'alpha rolling' or pinning a pup or adult dog down are dangerous, stupid ideas, based on theories that have since been proved wrong. Since dogs DONT view human beings as other dogs, there is no reason for them to accept or understand a human attempting to speak 'dog' language in taht way, and secondly, pinning a dog down and holding it there, when carried out by an adult dog is a very serious THREAT, its scary and it pretty much means 'carry on and i intend to kill you'.....

If, however, you want to bring up your dog, who will one day be sufficiently big enough to do you a serious injury, by fear and threats, feel free.

I can tell you a tale of a girl who brought up all her border collies using the alpha roll technique. They all submitted to her and skulked around in fear of her.
Then she got a working bred terrier, a dog bred to work from its own intiative and not back down to threats from animals bigger than itself. This dog was also given the alpha roll technique.

This pup became steadily more aggressive, to both the border collies, and the owner, and the owners friends. She was frightened, she was anxious taht at any moment someone would try to kill her, she eventually got to the poitn where she would launch herself at any raised hand or sudden movement, but the owner was still convinced that alpha rolling would 'show her who was boss'.

That dog was shot in the end, deemed too aggressive and beyond retraining, whether or not she was i dont know, but lets take heed from that lesson, training by fear and threats is NOT kind, and is NOT effective.

Em

Just to add to that,  someone on an Australian forum suggested someone alpha roll their adult Malamute and she ended up in hospital and the poor dog was put to sleep. It was the Monks of New Skete who advocated the technique but even they have done a u turn.

Lindsay
X

Spook and I have Malamutes and, as she said, alpha rolling a PUPPY (Spook *was* talking about a PUPPY and not an adult) is advice handed out by people extremely experienced in the breed.

No one, I repeat, no one, has suggested alpha rolling an adult dog

Thank you, I will now return you to your programme :D

Thankyou for clarifying that. :) Appreciated.

In your opinion Em?

A lot of people have used the techniques described to great effect, it depends on the dog and the owner surely?

;)

Mel, as you well know i dont have Mal's, but i still stand by what i said, there are better and less risky m ethods of teaching a pup not to bite and IF i thought an alpha roll would work and was necessary it WOULDNT be for puppy nipping!

Yep, like most training techniques, it does indeed depend on dog and owner, but would NOT hand out advice like THAT on an open forum where the owners knowlege and skills and the dogs temperament are not known!

Em

I agree totally with theemx.  Giving people the idea that alpha rolling is a good idea is *not* a good idea on a public forum.  There are many people on here, with new pups, who clearly haven't a clue about dogs.  If they start 'apha rolling' their rottie, GSD, mastiffs. etc., they are likely to end up without a nose!

I agree, because people will pick and choose advice which is why we have to be careful.
People rolling puppies will probably imho continue to do it to adults which is why i gave the example.

Lindsay
X

But this is a message board and people should be allowed to express their opinions and experiences and SUCCESSES without fear of reprisals from others! Who is anyone on here to question folks previous experiences that may well have worked? This board is becoming one which is putting off new members sharing their experiences for fears of ganged up criticism of folks posts. Not good - because then there is no new blood, fresh ideas or experiences.

If my dogs had a behavioural problem this is the last place I would look for serious advice to follow. This is simply a forum with which to discuss EXPERIENCE.

Maybe this is the last place YOU would post when looking for serious advice, but others seem to think differently - and if somebody posts a suggestion, which others believe should be treated with caution, then they have every right to suggest so.......

So you think calling someone elses post regarding their experience "BAD BAD BAD HORRENDOUS" advice is expressing caution?!

And the reason this is the last place I would post is because I would see so many conflicting offers of advice, and then a load of other posts pulling other peoples advice to bits and go off and consult someone who does know what they are talking about.

To be honest, if following the advice given can lead to a dog biting someone (as seems to have happened) and needing to be PTS, then yes, BAD BAD BAD HORRENDOUS just about sums it up.

Saying "Do take care" just doesn't convey the importance.
JMO

So one experience is enough to condemn someone elses positive ones?

What about just expressing caution and offering a precautionary tale - instead of being so rude? People offer their time and advice on here and should NOT be ridiculed or be treated with contempt fro doing so. IMO :)

I didn't think the poster of that advice was ridiculed. That particular piece of advice was strongly condemned - as it has been many times before on this forum.

Indeed. As the information on "yelping" when being nipped has been offered MANY times on this forum before - but now that seems out of favour aswell. Really, I can't keep up with all these changes :)

The comments were from advice that HAS WORKED ........and aimed at the OP who was talking about a PUPPY

The advice was immediately leapt upon and condemned ...on what grounds? Because it *could* lead to a dog biting? In that case people should NEVER feed BARF as it *could* lead to intestinal problems. Oh yes, and people shouldn't excercise their dogs because they *could* get run over or attack someone ...

It was advice, the OP is able to take it or leave it.

>Oh yes, and people shouldn't excercise their dogs because they *could* get run over or attack someone ...

That silliness is usually beneath you, Mel.

Something I've learned from reading posts on here is that different breeds require different handling, and what is appropriate for one would be disastrous for another. If acceptable treatment to one breed has been known to cause severe behavioural problems in another, that treatment shouldn't be recommended without a very strong proviso to that effect.

For example, the idea that there were breeds that shouldn't be let off the lead never crossed my mind!

We all know that very many people who read these pages have little or no experience with dogs, and that potentially dangerous misunderstandings should be avoided.

Something I've learned from reading posts on here is that a LOT of good advice is ignored because of the way in which it is written.

No-one listens to advice that is given in a patronising, abrupt and rude manner... they look at the poster and dismiss the advice. Infact, they get defensive.

If folk can't offer advice in a constructive manner and query others experiences by being polite and not dismissive then they should quit posting.

It seems even querying other people's advice is now forbidden ...

If folk can't offer advice in a constructive manner and query others experiences by being polite and not dismissive then they should quit posting.

Where does that say that querying other people's advice is now forbidden?

You only have to read the Feeding forum to learn that.

What I am saying is that quering other folks advice is more likely to be listened to when phrased in a constructive, polite and non-confrontational way.

Here, here Chloe and I can definitely say that the tone of some posters is putting a lot of potential newcomers off as they are too scared to come in here!