OED definition: fanatical: Possessed by a deity or devil; frantic, mad. Thesaurus synonyms include 'extremist, dogmatical, blinkered, intolerant, radical' etc etc. You may not intend it, but that's exactly how you come across. This thread was a sensible, reasoned discussion - why did you turn it into a 'free-for-all' (your words)?

That aside, you have previously been given links to the legislation regarding what is permitted in pet foods in the UK; if you have evidence that manufacturers are breaking the law, publicise it! Take out ads in the press - contact the MP of the constituency where the factories are - contact their council's environmental health department etc etc. After all, if you have evidence then you can't be sued for libel.

Maybe we all have to accept that the huge majority of dogs in this country are better fed than they have ever been in history - too well-fed in many cases! Personally, I think the easiest way to make them healthier is for most of them to have at least double the exercise they currently get ... but that's another thread!
:)

JG i have never said anyones breaking the law,they dont have to,it's perfectly legal.

So if they're not breaking the law, and the law says that the ingredients must be fit for human consumption, what's the problem?

Putting  aside the dictionary for a moment .Could someone explain why manufactures
Who use animal derivatives in their foods never use this as a selling point
Why don't they say things like "why spend a fortune on human grade meat dog food when you can buy our food at the same price, contains nothing but the best animal derivativeS we can find. Your dog wont even notice the difference as the high level of salt content will probably cover the taste" - nope -cant see it working can you.

Pet food manufacturers in the United Kingdom are controlled in what they are allowed to put on the packaging. Have a look at:-

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=6369&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=1522

Again, Jo, what do you describe as 'animal derivatives'? One person used to rage against the use of intestines! Just like the ones used as sausage skins!

Heres the full law & with it explanations of by products additives etc
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002481.htm#n26

Can`t wait to see who reads it ;) :D :D

Christine, Spain.

I've read it, Christine, but I'd be lying if I said I understood it! Do you know anywhere that has it in words of one syllable for idiots like me?
:)

Yes it made my head spin too, but the charts with the lists of ingredinets seemed fine to me.

lol@J/g  same here couldn`t make head nor tail of it, well most of it :D :D
Was hoping someone here could translate it!! Don`t think Brussels or governments know ordinary folk like us exist!!!

Christine, Spain

I have tried to read it Christine, but my dear ol' computer is taking forever to download it (well thats my excuse anyway :)) but I'm sure whatever the government will allow will have been in response to the research available.

Animal By Products come in three categories and category 3 is what is used in pet food, it is not necessarily (sp) "fit for human consumption" but must only come from an animal killed and passed as "fit for human consumption".

So not full of sodium pentathol as certain websites would have you believe. The rules about whatmedicines can be used in animals for the food chain are very strict. Yes, some mavericks will cheat, but most know they have too much to lose.

I have no idea -that's the point, what are animal derivatives? if manufactures put
On their bags - (forget the minimum they have say to under current packaging laws)
What is in  their food and list it instead of hiding under the term animal derivatives. The chances are they would not sell any of it. Simple fact of the matter is that the term animal derivatives is a blanket for all sorts of by products. But we dont know or do you have a full list of what is?-Jo

This seems quite informative.

Ahh J/G you cheated :D It had those lists in my link but you had to scroll way down to find them :D :D

Christine, Spain.

Yep that was the bit I read, after finding the legalese befuddling.

Well I haven't commented upon any of these feeding posts but as I see it everyone has the right to feed what they feel is appropriate for their dog. Just because one person has strong views upon what they choose to feed doesnt give them the right to be disparaging about another persons opinion or what they choose to feed. There are alot of foods out there i dont feed but I have tried a few and at the moment I am happy with my dogs appitite (no fussy eaters here then again I never have had)their energy and their condition so I feel that at the moment I am  feeding what  suits my dogs. I have 6 but they dont all eat the same.I also dont feel any need to  convert anyone else to my way of thinking as what I chose to feed may not suit their dog. Sensible debate can encourage people to look at things in a different way.Fanatical lecturing makes people at best switch off at worst rebel.JMHO

Thats exactly how I feel about the whole feeding debate.

I am sorry but I have not had time to read all posts but have looked at a several.
As regards Animal By Products there are, in my opinion, two sorts one that goes in complete foods and one that goes in fresh and I know which I prefer.  Animal by products is something that is derived from the animal whether it be feet, heads, feathers or dropping off the floor it all derives from the animal!! what you generally get in complete foods is what is listed above and they class it as 'protein'.   Raw meats such as tripe, hearts, liver etc are again a by product of the animal.   

"Dont you care about what your dogs eat? Well obviously NOT!" Rose - posted 14.02.05, 23.08

I usually steer clear of posting on these food product posts - I have my own opinions, but am open to information/argument/persuasion - but I do find it very sad when some posters start saying there is only one road.

Posts like Rose's, cut & pasted above, do no favours for the argument - it brings the whole thread down into playground brawl - "my dad's bigger than your dad, so I'm right".  The thread will be locked if it degenerates.

"I may disagree with your views, but I will defend to the death your right to hold these views"

Can't remember who said this (or whose quotation I have paraphrased - not enough coffee yet).

Can't we stick to this rule?

Regards

Margot

Lokis mum thats the impression i get, re:about not caring! :(

I dont want to be argumentative nor do i want this thread to degenerate,but like i said if others want to debate,argue,challenge,call it what you want than i am more than happy to oblige. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander in this particular case :) If you cant handle the heat,stay out of the kitchen :D
People will post on this thread out of their own free will aswell as read it,i'm not twisting anyones arm,but once you post your opinion for the world to see then i will respond as can anyone else :)

So i dont agree with some of these posters and they dont agree with me,who cares!! i enjoy a good debate like anyone else.The people i am trying to reach will certainly not post here i shouldnt think,judging by the p.m's i am receiving from those too scared to post and a couple even thanked me for posting the link so they could see for themselves :( I wish they had the gumption to post on this thread and i am so tempted to copy them out for all to see,but that would be plain out mean.

Anyway lets stop the sniping,myself included ofcourse and lets have an intelligent discussion about the pro's and con's of by-products,derivatives etc. this was afterall what this thread was supposed to be about.

CAn someone who believes in by-products and derivatives etc. please tell me the pro's :)

Rose, just so that we're 'singing from the same hymn-sheet' so to speak, can you please list what you include as 'by-products and derivatives'? We don't want to find ourselves debating (without any heat ;) so all are welcome in the kitchen!) different things.
:)

*I wonder why some of the long term natural feeders etc. wont touch threads like this here? I'm beginning to realise why,Tohme would very handy to have here,but alas she got sick of banging her head up against the wall  I hope i never end up disheartened and stop caring about the other dogs in this world.*

Because you are not doing us any favours Rose, thats why! If you want to debate it put up facts & let it speak for itself, not quotes picked from anywhere. You offended me with the last bit *I hope i never end up disheartened and stop caring about the other dogs in this world.* What gives you the right to say that, just because I haven`t posted on this thread??????
You`ve gone on abot others not answering you, well have you read the link I gave about European law the other week concerning animal by products/derivitives?? About time you did.

Christine, Spain.

I object most strongly that because I dont agree with Rose that I am in some way a bad person, cruel to my dogs and dont care about their well being. What gives you the right to say that? Where did the last dog die from being fed food from a pet food manufacturer in the UK?

Oh i give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No more double talk or going round in circles,i have truly had a gut full of this,it goes nowhere,no-one wants to believe me,everyone else is right i am wrong,whatever!! My dogs dont live with you,you dont feed them,thats all i should care about,not anyone elses dogs,why i give a sh**t,i dont know

Go ahead feed your animals derivatives from who knows where,and by-products from god knows what,i'm done trying to help.

Good luck and i hope your dogs live healthy disease free lives!

Rose, if you do follow any other threads than those about feeding, you may have seen that in the last month we have had to pts our beloved Purdey, a labrador who has had one litter, at the age of 14 years 9 months.   This is the AVERAGE age at which our dogs have left us.    Apart from arthritis over the last 18 months, she has been a perfectly healthy dog, as are all our others.

We feed a "whatever" diet - which means that now, their diet is based on a complete food - which I might change every 6 months or so, depending upon how enthusiastically it is eaten - plus extras that are always around a large family and meat/game/eggs that may be available at special offers.    I supplement pregnant bitches and puppies with live yoghurt, oldies get chondriotan & glucosamine, but otherwise - that's it!   Bones - as and when I can get them.

Our dogs are healthy, happy members of the family.   I am happy, and healthy, because I am not stressing myself out over whether feeding A + B is better than feeding X - Y.  

I object strongly to the statement that because I don't feed dogs the same food as you do, that I don't care for my dogs.....this type of thought process is very, very damaging.

Information is good, propaganda is bad - brainwashing is very bad.

Margot

Stop calling on me ;)

Can i ask if feeding a commercial food is so great than why bother supplementing with fresh foods,why not stick to the complete?

>I object strongly to the statement that because I don't feed dogs the same food as you do, that I don't care for my dogs.....this type of thought process is very, very damaging.< No i dont really follow the other boards.

I do not expect anyone to feed the same food as me,i do not want to give the impression that i do,cos i dont!

I am obviously wording my posts all wrong! one last time:  This is not directed at anyone personally.
If you care about your dog then why would you want to feed potentially diseased meats,beaks,hoofs,horns,euthanised dogs and cats,feacal matter and their derivatives etc. etc. etc. blah,blah,blah all of these may be found in low end pet foods.

I cannot explain myself any further,nor do i have the energy to repeat myself over and over. This is akin to beating a dead horse!

Christine i commend you for your intestinal fortitude 

>If you care about your dog then why would you want to feed potentially diseased meats,beaks,hoofs,horns,euthanised dogs and cats,feacal matter and their derivatives etc. etc. etc. blah,blah,blah all of these may be found in low end pet foods.

These are very serious claims. I want to know what proof you have, that's all.

John i dont need to know whats in your concience,if you think youre a bad person or cruel owner well thats up to you! But i never said that,however i did say that it seems you dont particularly care what goes into your dogs bowl!

The end!

I will stick to the numerous other nutrition sites i belong to with likeminded people who do bother to educate themselves. This whole feeding thread is just a shemozzle.it's not worth my time or effort :(

You intimated it Rose, and yes, my dogs do live out long healthy lives, and do you intend to answer MY question on where the last dog died from eating food from a dog food manufacturer?

>and do you intend to answer MY question on where the last dog died from eating food from a dog food manufacturer?<

My ex-neighbours dog died from eating a commercial food,a very bad one at that,the autopsy confirmed high levels of toxic waste in his system he had also just about eaten himself alive from the various allergies and skin conditions obtained from eating this food,the vet confirmed this! The dog would have been euthanised had he not died naturally first!This dog started my research on canine nutrition,some 20 years ago!

Read the books:  foods our pets die for. Oh gosh there are at least a dozen more but my brain is just fried!

Go to any vets office and ask about all the nutrition related diseases,such as cancer,bone growth problems etc.
Especially holistic vets who actually train in nutrition.I can guarantee you,you will find the answers to your question :(

Like i said i am done with this thread,its a big fat waste of time and energy,i dont know why i even wasted my breath,and i am also not interested in providing entertainment to the people who are reading this but wont post. In future i shall answer a question if someone asks,but i'm done with this particular trainwreck!

And I feel that having your intimations levelled at me that I am in some way cruel to my dogs deserves nothing less than an apology! I will take that from no one!

As to your statement <<My ex-neighbours dog died from eating a commercial food>> How come it has not made the papers? This is a categorical statement which needs to be backed up with proof. If it can be then is the firm still in business? If so why? And if it is not then why pick on all the others? You are making a charge without giving one shred of proof. Do you honestly believe that food standards have not changed in 20 years?

Come on now, did anybody read that link for the legislature of by products????
Or should I check back in a week or 10  :D :D :D

Christine, Spain.

i think some people should read the terms and conditions of this forum as it seems some people are intent on picking other peoples opinion to pieces.not what this forum is about it is about answering peoples questions not critisising everything some say.

The trouble is Rose your basic methods of research are flawed.  As someone involved in education I find it astonishing but perhaps it is your "passion" for the subject that has made you forget everything you learned in study skills at college.  It is of course common for the fanatic or enthusiast or whatever you want to call it, to adopt a theory and trawl literature, or more commonly the internet these days, looking only for articles or individuals that agree with it no matter how maverick they are but surely you have been taught that it is far better to approach any subject dispassionately  concentrating your research to repected areas such as peer reviewed journals, government sponsored reports etc. and be prepared to accept the outcome of the bulk of evidence.  It is also important to avoid becoming entrenched in a view and to allow for new data to change that majority evidence :).  I appreciate that your pupils are probably not of an age to be taught in this manner but I can't believe you have forgotten all this yourself.  When you assure me that you remember all that from your student days and demonstrate that is what you are doing then I might allow you to lecture me on research.

Having re-read that link, I find one claim particularly hard to believe - the one that states that

>Nations with generations of dogs raised on commercial pet food have experienced substantial decreases in canine longevity: up to 50 percent in some instances and breeds, <

On the contrary - many dogs are now living much longer than they used to ...

Don't know why you bothered to read it again, JG, its just an essay by someone with no apparent qualification and clearly an issue with profit making companies.  You would need "rose-tinted" spectacles to give it any gravitas  ;)

Unfortunately that's very true, Isabel. I thought perhaps I'd maybe missed something worthwhile in it, but no, I hadn't.

That's the problem with the Net. Anyone can publish whatever they choose on a website, however nonsensical, and there will be people who believe it simply because it's on the Net.

And be *done* for libel if it isn't true :rolleyes: