There has been a bit of talk about by-products in pet foods and some posters questioning WHY they are so bad!

Below is a link that i had lost,so i couldnt post it before,i didnt want to tack this onto the other Looong thread :D

http://www.users.qwest.net/~carrielc/dogfoods.html 

Well i tried to put the above into a clickable link!! I give up,i just can not do links here,can anyone explain an easy way to do it pleeeeese?? :)
I know it's a pain typing everything in,but the above site is really worth a look.Take from it what you will :)

Scroll down the bottom of the site and it will show you what the "mystery ingredients" mean,such as derivatives etc. etc. that some manufactures put on the label to decieve trusting pet owners.

America do not have the same laws that apply to the pet food industry in the UK so that really does not apply I'm afraid.

Regards, John

So to what extent are the laws different? And what about food made in other country's that is imported into the UK. if a company can't be bothered to list the full content of its food, logic most assume that  if they did consumers might be put off. -JO 

The main reason that some foods do not have a compreensive ingredient list (usually the cheaper ones) is that they do not work on a closed formula.  they wil put iferent types of ingredients that are still coered by say 'cereal' or 'Meat' but the type of these may vary from batch to batch, probably due to availability and cost.  It doesn't mean there is something usavoury about their motives, otehr than trying to maximise profit and minimise costs.

I do think that compared to some countires the regulations are much tighter in UK and EEc as to what is permitted to be used.

Even some of the imported brands of food are actually produced in teh UK now, and therefore subject to our rules.

I still prefer to use products by UK companies, especially those that specialise in Pet food rather than the giant corporations.

The law in this country states that all ingredients used in pet food must be fit for human consumption. As to what is printed on the packet/tin, I think that's down to the fact that it is only a very small part of the population who actually read the labels. People on boards such as this are really not a cross section of the dog owning population! We think more about the details than most. By far the biggest percentage just buy it in the shop because it, "looks nice/costs the most so must be the best/is the cheapest and my dog likes it"

Regards, John

This is a warning on boxes Of Bakers Complete one of the largest sellers in the UK What ever is contained in this food is not suitable for other animals so can not be made from Human grade sources  " This PRODUCT MAY CONTAIN MEAT &BONEMEAL OR OTHER PROCESSED ANIMAL PROTEINS. It IS Illegal to feed this product to animals kept for farming Purposes and it must be stored &used away from them". They make a good advert, they manage to get 2 ½ minutes of advertising done without the mention of what's the foods made from. If they did sales would drop

There can be any number of reasons for that Jo. For example, since the BSE problems it has been illegal to feed beef to cattle.

Regards, John

Any manufacture who has to put a warning on their food about the dangers of that food in the food chain leaves a lot to be desired. Bse was the result of unscrupulous use of animal derivatives being used to feed cattle. The fact that these companies will now put warning labels on their boxes indicates that these derivatives may cause harm to other animal's shows that what they are using is most likely the scrapings off the abattoir floor. Bakers
Is produced in the republic of Ireland so may be out side UK laws. Hence the Warning -Jo

If it come into the UK it is subject to UK laws. I have to say, there is more twaddle spoken about dog food than just about anything else! It never fails to amaze me.

Regards, John

I don't understand your point Jo, of course it should not be fed to farm animals if it contains lamb or beef, hardly ingredients to be ashamed of.  The fact that they go so far as to print a warning seems rather commendable.

BSE was the result of use of things like spinal cords and brain matter being processed because it was a cheep ingredient. Farm animals include Chickens, pigs, cows, lambs all part of the food chain. My point is that unlike some firms who have a firm policy on labeling. BAKERS have had to issue this warning because they are unsure of the source of their ingrdeants. I have e-mailed Bakers on more than one occasion to clarify this warning but have never had a reply! Good companies such as Arden grange, Jwb, Burns, Trophy responded to any? I have asked promptly. As for being commended for issuing what amounts to a health warning on their food it's a bit like cigarettes packets advising you that smoking kills, ignore it at your OR your dog peril-Jo 

Nope I still don't get what you are saying.   Just because it should not be fed to farm animals why would it be unsafe for dogs, the danger is in feeding like to like? The only reason I could see for issuing this warning is because the food contains farm animals, isn't that what most people are happy to feed their dogs in one form or another? Not sure what smoking has to do with it :)

I see your point, Isabel. If it contains beef, obviously it shouldn't be fed to farm animals. Nor should a steak - doesn't mean it's automatically dangerous for dogs. (Not saying bakers can compare to a steak, but I'm sure you get the analogy.)

That's the point we don't know what it contains Bakers warning states "may contain" surely we have the right to know what's in the food we buy After all BSE crossed over from Cows to Humans because of  ignorance of food manufactures and greed using every bit of animals so as to maximise profit. Simply asking for manufacturers to be honest as to what's in the food and also animals used for farming does that include dogs that work on farms?

BSE did not occur because every bit of the animal was used (I believe it is unethical not to use every bit that can be) but because cloven footed animals were fed to cloven footed animals there is no problem with dogs eating them.  Bakers would not be my first choice because my dogs are colour blind ;) and I admit it would be nice if they listed exactly what meat was used but if like me you don't own a dog intollerant to any particular meat it probably isn't too important so long as the necessary nutritional content is there.  As to it possibly meaning farm dogs I think you may be getting a bit carried away there :) but it wouldn't be allowed anyway.

i have e-mailed Bakers asking them the question about farm dogs . they have chosen not to reply despite thier website saying if you have any question about our food just e-mail .they must have their reasons.Arden grange,JWB,TROPHY,BURNS HAVE ALL responded to difficult questions . they also have their reasons -not trying to hide things Jo

I don't believe the US permit anything that would be harmful to be put in either, Jo, I don't have any trouble with the squeamish stuff :) if you read the link provided on this thread you will see it is entirely conjecture. 

>Well i tried to put the above into a clickable link!! I give up,i just can not do links here,can anyone explain an easy way to do it pleeeeese??

Rose, put [link] at the beginning, and [/link] at the end. :-) 

>I know it's a pain typing everything in.

It's much easier to copy and paste than type it. ;-)

http://www.users.qwest.net/~carrielc/dogfoods.html

HTH

Kath.

http://www.users.qwest.net/carrielc/dogfoods.html

John can you please show me where it states that  "human grade" ingredients are used in pet foods here,also show me a human food that contains feathers,hooves,feacal matter etc.

Where does all the contaminated meat go??surely it is not thrown in the bin,it is sold to pet food manufactures,wether it be in Britain,america or africa!! There is absolutely NO wastage when it comes to the human food industry,the food not fit for us gets passed down to the unscrupulous pet food makers!

If a pet food uses human grade ingredients then it will say so right on the bag,this is afterall a huge selling point. Are you telling me that pedigree and similar foods use all human grade ingredients,things we humans could eat??? There is no way in the world!! Whats the cheapest pet food you can buy?Do you think the makers could sell it at such a cheap price using all human grade meats???
Like i said if a pet food uses human grade or organic ingredients it will say so on the bag.

Kath thanks so much for showing me how to do links :) I've seen it explained dozens of confusing times,but not as easily as you did :D

Yes pet food manufactured in the UK has to be fit for human consumption, I think you are confusing what we would want to eat and what would be fit to eat.  If it is unfit for any animal to eat it can be turned into fertiliser.  If it would make a human ill it would make a dog ill and, despite the majority of dogs in the UK being fed complete foods, the dog population remains very healthy.  I think it is a sin not to use all byproducts that can be the least that goes for incineration as clinical waste the better.

http://www.wholisticanimal.com/commercialfood.asp

Just to make it perfectly clear,i have NOTHING against commercial foods persay,i feed them myself,it's the cheaper ones that use the cheaper less healthful ingredients i take exception to :(  Our dogs deserve better .

Christine i read the link inbetween nodding off section 7,i couldnt find bloody section 7 :p

I have also just spent my whole day off trawling for a site that has nothing to sell,there's no such thing except for this one...i've lost the damn link,i'll post it later! It is owned by a pet owner like us who has made her mission to research pet foods and their derivatives,absolutely nothing to gain but trying to educate pet owners :)

Here it is,even if your not interested in commercial food,it has a plethora of other interesting articles about nutrition.

http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/

As you say, an interesting site, and one of the more balanced! There's the usual problem of differing legalities between the US and the UK though (such as the fact that UK pet food meats must come from an animal that was fit for human consumption), but if you ignore that aspect there's some useful information.

Edit: I noticed s/he acknowledges that domestic dogs tend to live longer than wild canids - completely contradicting the earlier article.
:)

My brains well frazzled now, not looking at any more....today :)
Just some things that did take my notice tho, feathers are allowed, comes under chicken meal as protein.
Formaldyhide (too tired to spell) as a preservative, thats not something I`d like to give my dogs Wouldn`t there be a build up in the body taking that daily & what damage would that do to internal organs, the liver?
Cakes pastries bakers products &&&& chocolate under sucrose.
All the waste such as husks from cereals & shells nuts can`t remember now if that was as protein or sucrose or both.

Things are only recently being tightened up but I`m sure whats been said about pet foods is true.
And I know I keep saying this but by products are still imported from other countries where things aren`t as  tight as EU.

Christine, Spain.

JG thanks for taking the time to read the link :)

I notice in that 'wholistic' article (reproduced from a 1998 magazine article) it states that growth hormone implants from cattle go to be rendered and ultimately into pet food.

This article clearly states that the use of growth hormone has been banned in EU countries since 1988, and in fact hasn't been used in UK cattle since 1986. Beef from implanted cattle is banned from import into the UK.

>This article clearly states that the use of growth hormone has been banned in EU countries since 1988, and in fact hasn't been used in UK cattle since 1986. Beef from implanted cattle is banned from import into the UK.<

thats good to know JG :)

To tell you the truth it IS hard to believe whats true and whats not with all of these conflicting articles BUT i still stand my stance that derivatives and by-products arent good,there is no reason to feed foods that contain these when there are other much healthier options available.

Its hardly evidence when we are asked to "Try to imagine" such and such is going on. 

John can you please show me where it states that  "human grade" ingredients are used in pet foods here,also show me a human food that contains feathers,hooves,feacal matter etc.

Actually, if you're interested, you can email me and I'll send you a list of books to read that will tell you the USDA regulations on human food, which can, btw, contain feathers, hooves, fecal matter, insects, bleach, etc.  It's exactly why I'm a vegetarian.  If you want to eat 'human' grade food yourself, you'll need to buy organic.

John did not mention "human grade" only fit for human consumption, whilst a lot of what goes into pet food would not appeal to you, particularly as a vegetarian, it would do you no harm. What would you like to happen to all the bits that are perfection safe and nutritious but you would not fancy eating?

Mr Spock. In all the years I have lived I figure I must be doing something right with my diet, and for that matter with my dogs diets! Fur and Feather was the old Gamekeeper's way of feeding years before the pet food manufacturers were ever invented. I'm surprised you people who feed raw foods don't do that anyway!

Regards, John

If you'll notice, I was responding to the person (Rose, I believe) that said show me what human food contains feathers...etc.  And what I am stating is that I have factual information available, in the way of reading suggestions, that will allow that person to understand what goes into 'human' food in the United States as most people don't know, or don't want to know, what they eat.  I said that if that person wanted to eat food w/out the percentage of non-foods that is permitted, they would have to eat organic (which does not mean raw btw).  I mentioned nothing of dog food.

What you feed your dog, along with what you're willing to put in your body, is your personal business and matters to me not in the least.

Sorry Mr Spock, it was a bit confusing as it looked like you were saying exactly the same as Rose :)  If you try putting a >    infront of a quote you will find it converts into a different type and this whole thread reading business becomes a bit easier :)

Certainly had me fooled! Without something to indicate quotes I can only read posts as I see them.

Mr Spock i'm well aware of what human food contains aswell :( I admit i try and shut my mind off about it,much like some of the posters here do about dog foods 

I'm the first to admit that my dogs eat way better than me,i dont research or rarely even look at the ingredients used in the foods i eat But my dogs deserve better than that,they dont have a choice,i do!!

John still waiting for the proof that human grade meats are used in all of our pet foods?? I'm sure bakers are very proud of the fact that they use all human grade meat,NOT. Do ALL commercial foods have the warning bakers does?Because if they could get away with not printing warnings on their foods i'm sure they would,not a very good selling point,it is obvious they have been made to put this on their packages,it is not a commendable (voluntary) thing to do on their part :rolleyes:!
Otherwise every other pet food would have the exact same labelling as bakers. Jo made a good point about the cigarettes,was it the big cig companies idea to put health warnings on their packs,they were made to do it by law,obviously same thing with bakers.

Jo bless you,you hung around this thread longer than i thought you would,i was hoping this would not turn into a free for all,should have known better :(

I wonder why some of the long term natural feeders etc. wont touch threads like this here? I'm beginning to realise why,Tohme would very handy to have here,but alas she got sick of banging her head up against the wall I hope i never end up disheartened and stop caring about the other dogs in this world.

Why do you say this has turned into a free-for-all, Rose? Nobody's being rude; it's perfectly acceptable for other people to have their own opinion, and just as much right to express it, and query things. Nobody knows it all, and it's only by asking questions about the reasoning behind people's views that we learn. But it's not a crime to disagree.
:)

I was just thinking it was nice to have a adult discussion on the subject for a change without any personal comments.

Isabel take a look at johns posts and then say there's no personal comments!

JG there's opinions,i accept everyones got one and then there's cold hard facts that try as some people might cant really be argued against.

Then you get the people who have absolutely no idea what they are ranting on about and go round and round in circles,not stating any facts, just to be argumentative!

There are so many assumptions flying around on this thread but when questioned these people just cant back it up and completely ignore the questions asked of them,in this case it is just their opinion and should be taken as such. I could state my opinion as by-products are just great for dogs,doesnt mean it has a skerrick of truth in it,this can be very frustratingf for people who actually know better :(

<<I'm beginning to realise why,Tohme would very handy to have here,but alas she got sick of banging her head up against the wall>>

I'm quite happy with you banging your head against a brick wall Rose if thats what flys your kite but I do object to your attempts at banging my head on the wall. Heavens protect us from fanatics!

John

John you were the one that said it! Why cant you answer the question?

If you think i'm a fanatic,then what do you call yaself??? So i'm a fanatic becaue i choose not to feed my dogs certain things,whatever flies your little kite then John !!

Would you like to answer a question for me Rose? Why are you quite such a fanatic?

Fanatic about what exactly John?? Dont you care about what your dogs eat? Well obviously NOT!

Now you answer my questions.

Why does your post remind me of another person who used to post on here? I think she was banned!

Rose, Just a simple question.  Do you think you are fanatical on this subject?

>Why does your post remind me of another person who used to post on here? I think she was banned!<

I dont know john,you tell me?? I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks like this,infact i know i'm not! I definately know i'm not the only one you have irritated or butted heads with either :rolleyes:

Kayc it all depends on how you class fanatical,i care about what dogs eat and yes it does make me see red when i hear of the practices some pet manufactures go through to decieve the unsuspecting public,they treat us like we are utter twits who believe everything their slick advertisements say! I guess the bottom line is i'm hoping that the people who feed foods with by-products in them will read this and learn exactly what they are and will want to change to a better food for their dogs,wether they're doing well or not,there's always room for improvement!

I just dont understand why pet owners would willingly feed this garbage to their pets.Fanatical.... I'm fanatical about canine nutrition i guess. Dictionary term: Fanatic: A person who is excessivly enthusiastic about something: I'm definately enthuiastic about this subject,obviously :D

People can feed what they want to their pets! I just want to pass on what i have learnt over the years,they can take it or leave it,but if they want to argue about it,then i will argue back.
This subject is so glaringly obvious,i would have thought it  would make most folk cringe and really want to do the best for their animals.

Unfortunately all this thread has done is reared the heads of the usual suspects who dont care anyway :(

Rose, in my 1948 Chambers dictionary, fanatical = wild, excessive, extravagantly and unreasonably excessive.  Which is exactly how you are coming over. 

Personally, I care very much how and what I feed my dogs, but I have not been given the devine right to preach to anyone on the subject.  I simply state what and why I feed my dogs a particular food.  Each one of us has the right to choose, whether rightly or wrongly how or what to feed our dogs. 

Unfortunately the majority of pet owners do believe  'slick advertisements' , but the majority of them will never read or even see this board.  The people who do seek advice from the members are simply that, seeking advice. I try not to give advice, but as I have said, I will state what I feed. They are free to choose from all advice given.  Preaching never works. 

The majority of pet owners do not understand human nutrition, sales from M*cD******ds and B*****r K**G prove that.  How on earth do you expect them to understand or even care about pet nutrition.  this is the general pet ownership you are talking about.  the member of this board do care, this is probably the most heated and debated subject constantly being resurected

The simple fact that people on this thread are 'debating' this subject proves they do care.  Each to his own!!!!

I do the best for mine :D

I got my definition in the "1992" websters dictionary :)

O.K i will try and make this short and sweet. My biggest gripe is: there is so much literature out there saying how bad by-products are and exactly WHAT they are,why do people still argue about it or defend it,when it's as plain as the nose on your face,so very obvious,i truly do not get the argument??More importantly how can they defend these things and want to feed them to their pets.

There it is,in a nutshell,This is what gets to me!

On the last thread about pet food fit for human consumption I posted a link to UE legislature & it clearly states what is & isn`t allowed. It also states the countries it applies to which are ALL European countries not just the UK, so saying *in the UK* things are stricter or this, that, the other just doesn`t apply anymore! Countries newish to the EU have a couple yrs to get up to standard.
What does happen is animal derivitives/by products are imported into the EU counties & that includes the UK, from places like America, Asia etc, they are then used to make up pet food.
Things are being tightened up but it`s only recently & lets face it we all know that even food unfit for humans to get into the human food chain link so if it can happen there who`s to say it can`t happen in pet food?

Christine, Spain.

<<Unfortunately all this thread has done is reared the heads of the usual suspects who dont care anyway>>

What exactly are we suspected of Rose? And who says we dont care?