There is an ESS, imported from Sweden, with a tail that has achieved Sh Ch status. I think that if a dog is an outstanding example of it's breed, it will eventually be recognised with or without a tail.

Yes but the owners identity might have helped with this ESS???????

Just watched the 2004 Crufts tape while kids were in bed.  I thought the Silky looked lovely with it's tail, though the Am, Ciokers tail wagging in movement looked awful as to my eyes did the tails of the /
Clumber and WEim, which looked amputated, and would have looked nicer long.  Some docks taper nicely so tha it looks natural and some hav that horid cut off look.  I have been told that those done by banding get a nice finish and cut ones look like stumps???

I understand that completely but we are not talking about people breeding from undocked dogs with at the very least a stud book number...or are we?

I did not say tailed dogs were not quality just questioning the quality of the dogs and the motives of those breeders on this site who are regularly breeding dogs for the pet market.  Are the parents in the stud book at the very least or have working certs - if not why are they being bred - what is the motive i can only think of one...

Sharon

Yes I agree, it has taken time but most judges don't seem to be as biased towards docked as they were, there are several ESS being shown with tails all doing well, one top breeder no longer docks, my Spanish with a tail has done very well, some breed judges are taking longer to accept them, but it should still be down to the individual to decide whether or not to dock.

As for breeding, I only breed when I want to keep a puppy and to try and improve on what Ive got, my ESS has had 1 litter and hopefully another one this year, if theres anything good I'll keep it if not they will be sold on to people who I have waiting, the same with the Spanish my oldest one will hopefully have pups this year as I want to have another SWD the same applies I particularly want a darker coloured bitch this time, if there arnt any I wont keep one unless its a stunning example, (well you can always hope cant U !!!).

That particular ESS was the one I was speaking about in a previous post on this thread, and is indeed a very worthy champion, but if you speak to his owner you will find out that she at one point despaired of making him up because of his tail

Meant to add (out of time again!) that when I ask new owners of undocked puppies in the grooming parlour, whether they chose an undocked puppy, they ALWAYS say, without fail "No, it's illegal to dock puppies anymore, that's what the breeder told me.  I do like his tail though"
I agree that if an undocked dog is an exceptional example of its breed, then it will get to the top.  Unfortunately all the undocked dogs that I've met have been poor specimens, bred specifically for the pet market, obviously from poor quality parents.

I was hoping this thread was still active...

I have just got back in from walking the dogs at a local forestry area & loch.    I met an elderly couple with a Cocker on the last stretch.  Typical 'pet' Cocker, huge topknot, coat never stripped out properly so it was all fuzzy & undocked.    The lady was pulling twigs out of the dog's feathering whilst the gentleman was trying to stop some blood from the tail with his hankie.   

After talking to them to see if the dog was ok, it seems that this is a regular occurence.  They have had Cockers for 40 years, this is their first undocked one and they hadn't thought a lot about the dog having his tail as he is bought as a pet.  They said to me IF they are in the position to have another, they will have a docked one again.

I only breed a litter when I want something to show, and that is the only reason - I don't just turn out litters of puppies for the pet market.  As I breed each litter hoping for a winner (I can dream!), I need them to be docked.  I make no excuses for having them docked.  I love my breed and if docking were banned completely, I would still love them and would show un-docked dogs.  Sometimes one of my puppies goes to a friend who shows (but only if I know the person well enough to know the pup will have a home for life even if they don't do a lot of winning).  So they are all docked.

Sharon why do you think that those of us on here who breed and don't dock do it for pet homes only? 

Did you not read my last post re my friend who owns the Kassalmak affix being the top breeder for the UK in schipperkes 04? 

Does it not occur that maybe we ARE breeding to improve the standard of our breed and doing a pretty good job of it if we made the only male champion in 04 with his son's taking Bob CC and Res CC at Crufts 04 and him about to be an American champion.  The only difference between those dogs and the others we are showing is a tail but we are determined to keep putting qaulity animals in front of judges in the hope that one day they will be accepted on an equal footing to the docked dogs in the breed.

So no non of us breed for money, there isn't any in schips average litter 3 - 4, microchipping and MPS 3b testing is £65 per pup with me  chipping the pups myself, the breed average price is £300, all parents have been tested for MPS 3b 2 of only 3 kennels in the UK to have done so. We send our pups out with a 3kg bag of food, vet bedding, wormer, flea treatments, logic tooth paste, a copy of Gwen Bailey's 'The perfect Puppy' diet sheets, contracts, KC endorsements on registrations, feeding and worming program and a lifetime guarantee to take a dog back if needed oh and of course the usual lifetime telephone support service. 

"also it is unlikely that the top stud dogs in your breed would be available to a litter destined for the pet market as undocked pups."

You're right in the sense that WE don't stud our dogs out and we certainly don't want to use anything away from home at present and are sourcing our studs outside of the UK.   Our own stud dogs are at the very least in possession of stud book numbers, most have CC's, Res CC's with the exception of 1 male from a slow maturing line who even if docked I wouldn't expect to campaign before the age of 3, his uncle is Ch/Ir/Int Ch Franhowil Frankie boy, with his father being a repeat mating who never went into the ring due to a leg injury early in life.

We also don't make a distinction between show prospects, pets, agility and working pups the price is the price is the price, Crazey Masey one of the top agility training teams in the UK have a tailed Clynalwyn schipperke for agility, I have 2 tailed daughters out of my uk and soon to be Am champion working lifestock, sheep, chickens, geese and ducks even if  the fowl  don't want to herded at that point in time lol and another from my first litter also working cattle.  I work my own dogs rabbiting and yes they go into cover just as fast as any springer and will go to ground as fast as a terrier despite their full tails.

I hope that has helped your curiosity and interest in our motives.

Schip, I don't think that anyone would refute your (or Kerioak's) commitment to your breed.  You obviously have a passionate interest and chose not to dock your pups. ;)  You are both a credit to your breeds!
I don't consider that to be in anyway the same as those who breed for the solely for the pet market, just producing puppies to sell! :(

Schip
You are the exception, and i applaud your motives and breeding ethics, and many congrats on your wins.
I did not however accuse anyone - mearly questioned.  It is sad that only you of all those who claim to regularly breed un docked litters in this thread can justify their breeding practices and motives.

The breeder of dobes with tails could not possibly make the claims you do in terms of quality, this being a breed with a massive demand in the pet market, which i doubt your breed has; and a breed without a uk champion with a tail or indeed a tailed dog with a stud book number (i will stand corrected if wrong).

I have mixed opinions on the docking issue and can see good and bad in the arguments from both sides, some customarily docked breeds look great with tails, and some awful... I think unless there is cruety and suffering involved people should have the option to choose, however a little local anesthetic may help with the pro docking argument.

Sharon

I don't believe local anaesthetic is necessary, Sharon, but if you were to use it how would it be applied?  An injection, if you have ever had some, is extremely painful, albeit briefly, and a spray or cream would not penetrate beyond the surface if indeed it got beyond the fur :)

Very well said Sharon.

I have no problem whatsoever in people breeding dogs being as a novice or an experience breeder, but I'm afraid that anyone that breeds solely for the pet market has to have money as their prime motive, well in my opinion anyway.

The aim of the majority of show breeders IS to improve on the quality of the stock in their kennel, the same cannot be said for people breeding for the pet market!!!

I don't breed but I do own a docked breed (shorthair weimaraner) and have owned docked and undocked breeds (terriers and border collies) in the past.  I think that whether you believe in docking or not we should still be fighting for the right to make our own decisions.  I want to be able to decide what I do with my dogs for myself, rather than having some daft government and others alike make decisions for me, especially when they appear to know little about the facts ! 

By the way, whilst the breed standard says that the Longhair Weimaraner has the tip of their tail docked and I personally always thought this was the case, I have been assured by those owning Longhairs that this is not so.

Personally, I wouldn't hold it against any dog, regardless of breed, for being docked or undocked and would judge them all in the same way.  But I really dread the day whereby ALL our dogs have tails just because AN Other(s) says so :-(  The government should spend more time sorting out other cruelty cases where there is no element of doubt that cruelty and/or pain is at hand.  For example, puppy farmers, battery hens and force fed animals to name but a few :-(

I OWN IRISH SETTERS AND AMERICAN COCKERS, I TOO THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEED TO BE LOOKING AT OTHER AREAS OF CRUELTY, AFTER ALL THEY STILL PUT BANDS ON LAMBS TAILS SURELLY THIS MUST BE PAINFULL AS I BELEIVE THAT IT TAKES WEEKS FOR THE TAIL TO DIE AND DROP OF, BETTER TO BE DOCKED BY A VET THAN TO DO THIS, I ALSO HAD AN IRISH WITH A REALLY WAGGY TAIL WHICH KEPT SPLITTING AT THE END, THE BLOOD USED TO GO UP THE WALLS AND EVERYWHERE, WHAT A TERRABLE JOB I HAD GETTING THE TAIL TO HEAL IM SURE ANYONE ELSE WOULD AGREE FOR ANY DOG TO BE IN PAIN ITS TERRABLE SO LET EVERYONE DECIDE FOR THEMSELFS ABOUT DOCKING NOT THE GOVERNMENT

This is off the original subject but in response to some of the replies...  I don't agree with puppies being bred solely for money at all but I don't see why producing dogs for the show ring is the be all and end all.  I'd value proven working ability either in the job the dog was bred to do or in one of the dog sports like trialling over and above show success, because showing is subjective and its not always the best dog in the ring that wins.  Breeding dogs for showing has changed some breeds remarkably and in several breeds you can immediately tell whether a particular dog is from a working or show background.  From where I sit, the ethos of show breeding might be to 'better the breed' but I'm not sure that that's what actually happens and breeding for showing has led to an increase in health/temperment problems in some breeds because people are stupid enough to breed for one characteristic, such as coat colour or size etc., rather than for a whole, healthy dog. Show breeders have driven the way that some dogs now look and it's not always for the betterment of the breed.  I'm not against showing at all and was very pleased to get a reserve with my undocked rottie puppy at his first show but it's a nonsense to assume that show homes are all good, knowledgeable homes, because they're not.  There's just as many miserable dogs crated 24-7, under-exercised and under-valued in show homes that breed as in pet homes that do so - how many show breeders can people think of that they know who have more dogs than they can realistically look after properly and put sufficient time into?  Just because a breeder shows their dogs doesn't make them potentially any less cr*p than a breeder that doesn't.  Anybody who breeds a litter should have an aim in mind regardless of money but that aim doesn't always have to be the show ring.  Dogs should be bred to be fit and healthy, not to fit with the latest trend and tails should be left firmly on bottoms in my humble opinion.

Having previously worked in boarding kennels I have experienced a great deal of tail bash in breeds that have not been docked, such as the boxer, weimaraner and cocker however the breed that seemed to be most affected by this was the Rhodesian Ridgeback, Greyhounds, whippets, Dalmatians etc as they have very little flesh and hair protecting this area, therefore this makes me wonder why such breeds that are very active and excitable with long whipping tails are undocked (please excuse my ignorance!)?
I also own and breed Rottweilers that are docked for a few reasons.  I loved the breed for many years before owning one, however I did meet a couple of Rotties with tails and I did not like the look very much, yes this is a cosmetic opinion but are we not initially attracted to a dog due to their look??  I also wonder how you can correctly judge such breeds with tails as I know from experience that the tail carriage has varied greatly between the breed.  Some are swooped down, some are curled over the back, some are straight....how are we to know what is preferred and correct and what the judge wants to see???? When I had my first litter docked was worried that they would cry and be in pain however they did not even flinch, this could be because banding is less painful but I would not know as I have only used the bands as this seems to be the kindest and less stressful way, without bleeding!
All in all I guess it is down to personal preference but I do not think there is a right or wrong because as anyone who has seen a dog with tail bash will tell you the dog is in immense pain for at least a few days therefore I would rather dock my bind, death and unaware puppy risking a few seconds of pain than put my dog through weeks of vet treatment and pain!

Can I stick my head above the parapet and profer a very humble opinion as a novice?  I am rather worried about the argument expressed by a few people that the government should not try to dictate to people about tail docking because there is so much other worse cruelty inflicted on dogs.  Isn't that a bit like saying it doesn't matter about this half-starved child here because over there is a child actually about to die of starvation?  Surely society and governments can't only be involved in extreme situations, after all lots of people think we shouldn't be allowed to smack children for discipline reasons, perhaps they should just concentrate on the poor children who are being seriously abused?  This is not to say I do think that governments should dictate one way or another, I just thought that particular argument was flawed.

With regard to the fact that some people seem to think it wrong to breed for the pet market, if no-one did this and only show/working dogs were ever bred, there would be a distinct lack of pedigree dogs for people to own as pets (I realise that is probably a naive opinion!).  I know there are lots of unwanted dogs seeking homes, but again to use the children analogy, there are lots of unwanted children in care who are considered to old/problematical to be adopted and people want new babies.  So perhaps it is a bit unreasonable to expect that ordinary people who just want pets won't want a nice looking pedigree puppy. 

My dogs are first and foremost bred for the "pet market".  I do show my dogs though.  I try as much as possible to have my dogs with the correct temperament and to ensure that they are as close to the breed standard as possible and where possible will try and improve my stock along the way.  Let's face it not every dog in a litter will be "show quality" no matter how good a dog you go to, how good your dog is or how good the pedigree is.  If anyone can say that every dog that they've bred has been of "show quality" I wd. love to know how they did it :d

<<<<<<<<<<<<<With regard to the fact that some people seem to think it wrong to breed for the pet market, if no-one did this and only show/working dogs were ever bred, there would be a distinct lack of pedigree dogs for people to own as pets >>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Out of a "show-bred" litter you will be lucky to have 1 or 2 that will be show potential, the rest of the litter will deemed 'pet quality' and these are the ones that will be sold to the pet market, so the pet market does have a ready supply of puppies available without specifically 'pet bred' ones being bred.

You have said it exactly as I see it.

A show breeder will breed for quality and temperament, and maybe only one of that litter will ever be of show quality, so the general public will get a pet dog with all the best attributes of the breed and with the correct temperament. As Christine rightly said, there are plenty and enough of these quality puppies being bred to fill what the pet buyer could ever want to buy.

The majority of pedigree puppies in rescue centres have been bred by pet breeders or puppy farmers.  Any reputable show breeder would have a blue fit if one of their pups ended up in rescue.  thats is why most if not all of us sell our pups with contracts requesting that if need be they are returned to us for rehoming!!!!!

The breeder breeding for the pet market only, has no need to do all the health checks, try to improve the quality of the parents, or worry about temperament, or even have the knowledge to do any of that.  The will not be prepared to travel any distances to get a bloodline that will do any of the above and will possibly use the closest dog they can find of the correct breed. Regardless of looks or temperaments.

We are groomers and because of our interest in dog breeding, we normally question owners who bring their dogs in for grooming as to where they got them and are interested in their pedigrees.  I can promise the poorest examples of the breeds, in both temperament and looks and coat are the ones bred by the pet breeders.  These are the ones that cost their owners the most money in the long run.

We groomed a L/ C Chihuahua today, who has the most deformed mouth I have ever seen on a dog.
His bottom jaw is at least an inch shorter than his top jaw, his breathing is diabolical.  Guess what type of breeder bred this dog????

Or the Standard Poodle who's shoulder blades are so upright that he cannot bring his head higher than the level of his back!!! Guess what type of breeder bred this one

Or the English Cocker, who's resemblance to the breed is only the fact that he is a Golden colour, he looks more like a Small snipey Irish Setter!!!! Guess what type of breeder bred this one.

or the Silver Toy Poodle puppy, who is a joy to trim, even at 8 months, who is as pretty as a picture, with a wonderful texture of coat, and fits the breed standard perfectly and who's owners are now aware of what a mistake they made when buying their now deceased old Poodle who was operated on at a 1 year old for a hip that wasn't even close to fitting in its socket!!!!  Guess what type of breeder bred their new baby????

Agree completely Lady D.  I continually prattle on about slab sided, long legged (long tailed!) cockers with small ear canals that need aural resections,  Westies with pink skin and no undercoat needing Veterinary treatment for life.  Their only resemblance to Westies is that they are white and have a head, 4 legs and a tail.  Yorkies the size of Cockers, yes really, instead of under 7lb as the standard requires, with floppy ears wooly coats and luxating patellas that cost £600 to repair before the pup is 6 months old.  All bred from little Flossie "because she's lovely and my friend's dog is also very nice"!
When I have a litter, my priorities are temperament, health and quality.  One out of these 3 qualities is not enough!  If that means travelling 7 hours each way to use what I consider to be the most suitable dog for my bitch to achieve this, then that's exactly what I'll do!  I will keep one to show, maybe another will be booked for the ring, and the rest will make happy, healthy pets AND look like the breed that the owners have chosen to buy!

I forgot about the skin problems Val, in both Westie's and Lhasa's and Shi Tzu's.  the amount of owners who bring their dogs in armed with the Malaseb Shampoo is increasing daily.

What about the ones who are so badly made that they can't even wear their own nails down correctly and arrive with nails that are curled inwards towards their pads, in some cases even penetrating the pad!!!!!

Its a joy to us when a new customer turns up with a well bred dog that looks and is a good example of its breed.

csmad:  the point I was trying to make when I referred to the government was they shouldn't be taking our decisions away from us. If they want to have a debate about tail docking then fine, thats up to them, but as no one has yet proven without reasonable doubt, that tail docking is very painful and comes with no benefit then I think they should concentrate on areas that do, without reasonable doubt, involve pain and cruelty, hence my examples of puppy farming etc.

As for the person who wondered how you could judge a traditionally docked dog who is undocked.  Well, in my opinion, I would be judging the dog based on the breed standard.  If we were to see more and more undocked dogs in the ring then the standard would have to be changed if it hadn't been done already.  Tail carriage in my breed varies quite a lot, some weimaraners are rather proud of their tail and carry it a bit too high, however I would be looking more at the tail set rather than how the dog carried it.

I get annoyed when people compare dogs and children during debates but I try to understand why people to do it.  However, your point about people not adopting children because they want a new baby is, in my opinion, unfair and incorrect.  People don't want a "new baby" they want a baby of their own and in my books there is nothing wrong with that at all !!

When I said people want a new baby, what I meant was a young under two year old child.  My analogy is that in the same way that people want a young child to rear (usually under two), rather than adopting the hundreds of older kids who cannot find homes, so people will want a nice pedigree puppy as a pet, and most won't prefer to give a home to the older abandoned, although of course some will.  I may not be an expert on breeding and showing dogs (which is why I came on this site looking for advice from experienced people), but I count myself as knowledgeable about adopting children because I have two children, one of whom is adopted and one I gave birth to myself.  I am not comparing the worth of dogs versus that of children, but comparing the inclinations of people who want to rear a young life, whether it be dog or child and what I say about adopting children is certainly true, hence the waiting list to adopt younger children and the hundreds of older children in care.  My main point was that there is nothing wrong with having nice pedigree puppies available as pets and I wondered why people on this site seemed so down on the idea.  I understand now, however, that the pedigree puppies for pets would ideally come from the show/working bred litters because some of those puppies would be available for people to have as pets.  There certainly is nothing wrong with people wanting their own baby, I should know because it took me 16 years of "wanting" to get my lovely baby, but neither is it wrong for people to want a pedigree pup as a pet, which was the impression I was getting from this site.  Hence my analogy.  Sorry if it annoyed you so much.

Yes you are correct, the vast majority of carefully bred working or show litters will live as pets, including the show and working ones of course.  It is those who think 'just a pet' means they can churn out substandard unhealthy stock to the often gullible public that is what concientious breeders and breed devotees are against.

You have got a brilliant way with words Brainless!!!
VERY WELL SAID - and I did mean to shout!! :)

Snomaes for prime minister. you get my vote. !!! I too am fed up with political correctness and bully boy tactics infringing on peoples rights. Also the self rightious atitude of other dog breeders in general. We all love our dogs and give them the very best that we as individuals see fit. Everyone however, is not the same when it comes to moral values, ethics or true personal beleifs, and is,nt it a good job too. Otherwise we would all be touting timber wolves on the end of very long leads !! Lets all be honest for once. Who amongst us never thinks about the profit as one of the benefits of breeding a litter ? Who has never looked at an undocked dog and thought, lovely but pitty it was,nt docked ? What is wrong with breeding a litter when you know very well that they will all turn out little more than cracking companions and wonderful family pets?  I do,nt want to cause offence to anyone but if new breeders were,nt made to feel so inferior then they may be more inclined to seek advice from the big hitters out there. Honesty. Always the best policy. Do,nt you think?

I train and work Spaniels, it would be impossible for a working Spaniel to carry out its job with a full tail, even Spaniels with tails that have been docked but left a little on the long side suffer. May i suggest that if show breeders want tails on their dogs that's fine but leave working dogs alone, and that goes for this Marxist goverment too!.

It's odd how opinions vary so much, because the people I know who work their spaniels throughout the season want no more than a third of the tail removed. The short show-dock is (according to their needs) completely worthless.
:)

I do not advocate a stump or anything like, but what has happened over the past few years is a lot of people still dock tails them selves and so they tend to leave the tail much longer than the norm so they do not receive unwonted attention. Two thirds or a trialing tail as its called is fine any longer and the tails natural curve will appear and this is when you will have problems.

Which is why I've been asking for very many years why show spaniels have such a short dock when it's obviously nothing to do with injury while working.
:)

I may regret saying this but show breeders have a lot to answer to when it comes to many breeds of dog particularly working strains

I,m sorry to say that more and more it seems that the g-ment look for ways to satisfy the masses by bringing in legislation that a; costs them nothing, b; hits the headlines and c; if it pleases more people than it offends then they are on to a winner. The biggest cost of a tail docking ban would in the long run be to the poor dogs that work for a living, in constant pain after a tail injury. Something I should imagine akin to pulling ones nail off and trying to type a letter. A dull ache which every now and again, realy lets you know about it!  Maybe after a while the owner of working docked breeds might say enough is enough and stop working their charges? Maybe choose an un-docked breed next time? Maybe this is all academic as for the price of a few more votes they will ban ALL working with dogs? Who suffers in the long run? The poor old working breeds again. In the present climate, the only way my gt grandchildren will see a PROPER working dog is in the realms of encyclopedia. Looks like my lads and I had better start looking up the number of our nearest drug dealer to pass the weekends instead of a bit of rabbiting with the terriers!! Funny how social attitudes change, is,nt it?

If you have a working dog and can prove it, then they will be allowed to have their tails docked.  I think the ban is purely non-working dogs

No good Sharon. The tails have, by law, to be docked so early that no one would have brought a puppy by that age. A breeder cannot wait to see how the litter will work out because tails have to be docked within a couple or so days.

Regards, John

But surely if you breed 'working dogs' then it's not going to be a problem for you.

I breed cocker spaniels, none have ever gone on to be working dogs, I don't dock any way, so it won't be a problem for me, we also went to a Cocker Spaniel show at the weekend where a very handsome orange and white won quite a few of his groups with FULL TAIL  I think it will just take time for people to get used to the sights of dogs with tails

Just remember, by saying this you are compounding the split between work and show dogs. Not a problem if you are happy with this situation I suppose. Also remember, not all work bred dogs go into working homes so do you accept that it is OK to dock dogs destined for pets?

Regards, John

It really up to you.  If it was me I'd go for a three quater tale rather than a stump.  I've got a English Springer and she's got a full lengh tale with no papers, but she's still a good working dog, so really it doesn't matter what you decide.

Just an observation but when I was out walking the other day I saw what looked like a dachsund with a tail dragging along the ground which was filthy, now that must have been a pain for the dog and the owner. I don't even know whether they normally have tails but it didn't look right.

Yes, dachshunds have full tails.

I think some undocked cockers did very well at Crufts this year......... :D

LH Weimaraners no longer have their tails "tipped" in the UK.

hi all
havent been back om champdogs for a while and have got to say that this post has had me gripped since my return.
i have a docked ESS  not that it would bother me either way.
however there's one odd thing that strikes me and that is the fact the breeder of my ess obviously went to the trouble of having him docked yet left the dew claws in tact ??????
to date these have never been a problem for me or him just curious as to what his reasons may have been for docking but not to remove the dew claws??
emma

I don't know about ESS but in SWD's it has been found that they actually use their dew claws to turn quicker and they dont seem to injure them in any way whilst using them.  I have to say though if ever any had back ones I think that I'd still remove them especially if they were quite loose from the leg.