I am hoping my cocker spaniel is pregnant, but can't decide about docking the puppies' tails.  I have seen a vet do this many times in the past (with another breed) and I didn't like it much and would rather not dock this litter.  I have received conflicting advice, but mostly it seems to favour docking.  Do people think I would have trouble homing the pups if they had tails on, would I have to reduce the price by a lot (not that money is the main point).  I would appreciate advice from anyone who can help.  Thanks

I have Cocker spaniels at the moment, neither of them docked.  I used to dock but I can assure you more people contact me wanting pups because I DON'T dock than they did when I did dock and no, the prices aren't reduced either.  I still do the full health checks on mums and make sure dads are checked too, there is no reason to lower your prices! 
If you don't want to dock, then don't do it if you do, then do, but I can assure you, you won't have any problems finding homes for them.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

To Sharon:  thanks so much for your speedy reply which I found very reassuring.  I really don't want to dock the tails so I am glad to hear your view and pleased you do so well with your pups with tails!  That has given my confidence not to dock.  Thanks.

Docking tails is a matter for personal opinion.  I have working cockers and having a springer who needed a painful amputation after damage when he was a year old, I vowed never to put another dog through that and to always have docked working spaniels.

I held my litter whilst they were docked and by the time the second pup was being done, the first was sleeping peacefully in the box.  I was very impressed with how painfree and un-disruptive it appeared to me.

One prospective buyer wanted a tail left on, but I refused as I was unsure as to how we could be convinced her choice of pup would be the right one for her at just a day old.  It turned out, the right dog for her became apparent from the litter at about 3 weeks old and wouldn't have been her initial choice.

If I was choosing a pet, who didn't have a working instinct to tear bramble hedges apart, I would not see the need to dock.

Good luck with your choice, but remember, it's up to YOU!

Thats all very well Sharon, but what happens if someone wants to buy either one of yours or one of the OP for the showring, or are they all being sold as pets only.

Do you not show any yourself and if you do do you not find that they are penalised in the showring for having full tails???

Not a criticism just out of interest.

theres nothing as nice as seeing your dog wagging its tail .dogs were born with tails , i think they should keep them.

I'm not looking for a cocker yet, but when I do I won't be buying a docked one. There are several around this area with full tails and the owners never report that they have problems with them. And very nice I think they look too!
:)

Thanks Jeangenie, I think they look great with tails too. 

I don't dock my Dobermanns' tails and have not done so for many years.  I charge the going rate and tend to get quite a few enquires as I am one of the few, if not the only, person who health tests, competes occasionally and does not dock this breed.  If anyone has the gall to suggest I should charge less because they have tails then I just reply that they are getting more dog for their money than they do from other breeders :-)  If anyone asks where they can get them docked after purchase I gently inform them that they should buy a pup elsewhere as there are people that want undocked pups.

If you decide not to dock then as a novice breeder I would suggest you join the Anti Docking Alliance

I looked on the website for the Anti Docking Alliance and saw some photos of undocked cockers - thought they looked very nice.  My girl is docked and she looks nice too! On reflection I think if there are any puppies we won't dock.  Sorry to sound so wishy washy, just want to do the right thing for the puppies and my bitch - worried she will get distressed if the puppies are crying and sore.

Thanks to everyone who has replied, it has been very helpful.

Don't get me wrong, I think full tails look lovely, not only on cockers, but dobermans, rotties and all other dogs that seem to get docked for reasons I don't quite understand.

Personally, having experienced amputation, I would prefer to avoid the recurrence (it took over a year to heal), and dock!

Our 2 litters of ESSs had full tails, and all went to lovely homes very quickly indeed. I did a lot of research into docking a couple of years ago as part of an OU course, and although there are some dogs who do have problems with their tails, it is not just docked breeds who are affected so I feel that is just an excuse. I know of a GSD who had to have her tail amputated after a year of treatment for damage caused when it got caught in a door, and there are labs and other large breeds who have had problems too resulting in painful surgery and amputation..... no-one would dream of suggesting that they should be routinely docked. ;-)

Once you are familiar with the aesthetic view of a full tail you can start to appreciate just how beautiful it is; - I now find a stump far less pleasing to the eye. AND, as vets are less experienced nowadays there are some dogs about with "docked" tails of a very strange length indeed!

I'm surprised the KC has not introduced a certificate system so pups with docked tails have evidence on their registrations that they were docked legally by a vet... I am fairly sure some breeders are still doing it themselves, despite it being against the law.

Why not compare it to amputating the little finger of a new born baby?

YUKKKKKKKK!

JMPO

Clarence - Here we go again - the comparison with chopping off a baby's finger is misleading and wrong - we've heard it before, and it's emotive in the extreme.   The prophyllactic reason for docking is based on fact in working breeds.

My breed doesn't need to be docked, so I don't have a problem, but if I had a spaniel I most certainly would - long may it be left to personal choice, and I respect other people's views if they prefer tails left on .

The only thing I might add is that I've seen undocked pet cockers, who, whilst they look lovely when they're cared for and groomed, are a hygeine problem if their long tails are allowed to collect mud , poo and debris, as they're so close to the ground.    In an uncaring home this could be as much a problem as anything else.  Imagine an undocked cocker in a dirty puppy-farm yard!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I don't think the hygeine aspect is really relevant, because it applies equally to all coated breeds, Jo, not just spaniels or other customarily docked breeds. Any dog with that sort of coat will get dirty if not looked after properly. Cavaliers have the same coat, and are spaniels with tails, and yet they're not docked.

Hi Jo,

Yes, the reference to a baby's finger is emotive, but then the issue of docking is pretty emotive too.

As it HAS to be done by day 3 it has to be thought out in advance if the litter is likely to be split between working and pet homes and in all honesty should be considered when choosing a stud in the first place.  I do not believe that it should be a matter of "personal preference", but a question of whether or not the dog's future home makes it appropriate.  I personally find the idea of an amputation for aesthetic purposes rather gruesome. Having discussed all of this with my vet, who said he would dock if I could produce some kind of documentation that showed they were destined for working homes, I decided to leave the tails on. The pups were not really working lines, and all went to pet homes who were delighted that they had tails. I had been worried that it would be difficult to find the right homes for them, but in fact it was easier. (Hence my getting involved in this discussion, original question on this thread.)

When I first got involved with Springers I, too, found the tails strange looking, but as I got used to them and started to recognise their beauty I also started to see a stump more as a disfigurement. I sat on the fence over this for a long time, but I now feel that if a dog is genuinely destined for the kind of life that justifies docking, then fair enough. If it is for a pet home or the show ring (not working trials) then there is no justification for cosmetic mutilation.
Cleanliness is a poor excuse; all dogs get messy and its up to the owners to look after them properly. And it's up to breeders to only let their puppies go to homes that WILL look after them! (But that's another topic....)

Many years ago a friend used to breed Weimeraners, in the days when breeders usually docked them but the practise was already being questioned. She normally docked them on day 2, but this particular litter had been left until day 3 and she said it broke her heart and made her feel sick to hear their screams. The experience left her distraught and she decided to stop docking from then on, even though the Weimeraner Society and the breed standard at the time required it.

Maybe someone should devote some effort to breeding them with shorter tails??? :-)

Jane.

(Not trying to provoke an argument, but a lively debate! :-))

A lively debate can ensue without the use of emotive speak.

i like cockers with tails,good luck with your babies :)

Looking at the link...I'm confused! I always thought Large Munsterlanders were not docked at all...the site infers they are customarily docked?
Archer

I had a look too Archer and like you thought the same, why a picture of Large Munsterlanders, Cavalier and Long Coated Weimeraners all customarily undocked breeds??

By the way I am neither for nor against docking, just feel it should be left to personal decision. Which is why I asked my original question above to see if there are any problems leaving a customary breed undocked for the showring.

I don't have a docked breed.

I have always thought the problem with showing an undocked  dog of a cusomarily docked breed is that the breed standard does not specify how the tail should be?
Archer

I have four spaniels-2 are docked, 2 are undocked, the 2 undocked being my working cocker and my show cocker-and I must say, I do prefer them with tails!  Aside from when when they are over excited and the tail wagging becomes a repetitive "thump-thump-thump" on the floor or wall... :)  My breeder of both my cockers has been leaving her litters undocked for sometime now and she has had no troubles finding homes for any of them, nor did I pay a reduced price.  I incidently also have never had any bother with their tails either, apart from it meaning I have more feathering to have to pull bits of twigs etc out.. :rolleyes: :)  I fully support anyone's right to chose, so if you want to leave your pups undocked, go for it! :)

I think you are right on that one Archer.

Customarily docked breeds can have tails that are carried in all ways, for instance a tail carried curled over the back like a Spitz breed can make the outline of a dog look completely different to the outline of a dog with a tail carried straight out like a setter.  The tail carriae can make them look a completely different breed of dog.

Until there is wording in the breed standard to cover tail carriage I think it is very difficult for judges to judge an undocked against a docked.

Hence why when someone I knew was showing an undocked ESS, she covered the majority of his tail with her hand, she felt this gave the judges an easier comparison to the docked dogs in the ring alongside hers.

Archer, the KC standard for the cocker spaniel tail says:

Undocked: Slightly curved, of moderate length, proportionate to size of body giving an overall balanced appearance; ideally not reaching below the hock. Strong at the root and tapering to a fine tip; well feathered in keeping with the coat. Lively in action, carried on a plane not higher than level of back and never so low as to indicate timidity.

'Slightly curved' seems quite clear, as does the clause on carriage.
:)

Apologies...I have just looked and it seems most breeds now have a phrase in to explain an undocked tail...where these introduced recently?
Archer

Snap Archer

Wonder why we were the last to know. LOL

That means I have now got to get a new set of breed standards from the KC :-(

Quite some time ago the KC asked all breed clubs on customarily docked breeds to submit a "tail clause" for the standards. Any club which hadn't done so by a certain date had the description written for them by the KC (I think). I believe all customarily docked breeds now have a description of an undocked tail in their standards (there was a great todo with the OSD club, but not sure what the outcome was). Judges should not therefore penalise any dog with a full tail (whether they do or not is obviously difficult to tell).
My personal feeling over the whole debate is that I am fascinated that in where there is ever a "for or against" the vast majority who are against, want things banned for everyone - be it hunting, docking, smoking or whatever. Those "for" dont say it should be compulsory. Where is democratic choice? 

Unfortunately some of the "for" lobby are far from democratic about it: such as the well-known judge (who shall remain nameless) who openly declared that s/he would place an undocked specimen of any customarily docked breed last in its class, no matter how perfect a specimen it was. All his/her judging appointments should have been immediately cancelled due to his/her refusal to judge to the standard.

If this is the judge I think it is (he/she actually made that statement in the dog press?), he/she judged my breed in the last 12 months, and actually placed two undocked dogs. Eyes were a'poppin round the ring. Wonder if he/she has had a reprimand?

No, the clause about undocked tails came in ages ago - the standards on the KC site are all copyright July 2001.
:)

Munsters CAN be docked.    It is up to the individual.  The tip or a little bit more is removed.  Owning 4 Munsters - 1 docked & 3 undocked....I will dock the next time if I'm able too.  The undocked ones  haven't had huge amounts of blood loss with splitting their tails but they have still injured them...and I don't work them just give them lots of interesting exercise!

Long Haired Weimaraners are also often tipped too, not docked like their smooth haired brothers.

Dawn R.

It was a number of years ago when breeed clubs were asked to include descriptions for tails on undocked dogs.  I've seen photo's of dogs abroad of my breed and the tails are terrible, neither one thing or another, some are curled over the back, some look like pigs tails, some are carried high some are carried low and then of course you can also have the natural bobtails which can be different lengths too!  We had to put our preference but I feel that it will be unfair to dogs who have tails carried over the backs which are lovely in every other way but that.

I kept my last male because he was born naturally with a short tail and in years to come I want this trait to stay as I think that they look better with short tails.  We all have our own preferences of course.

Correct tail carriage is just one of those things that has to be bred for, and incorrect tail carriage in an otherwise good example of a 'tailed' breed is equally disappointing. But that's nature for you!

I have an ESS which is docked, 2 Spanish Water Dogs, one docked one with a long tail, luckily she carries it ok and it hasnt stopped her doing well in the show ring, and my latest edition a Cocker who is docked, it took some time for ESS to be placed with tails but now they are. I hope to have a litter of ESS soon and I wont be docking them, however my Spanish will be docked, as would any cockers.

In Dobermanns the tail part of the standard reads
~~
Docked: Docked at 1st or 2nd joint. Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop.
Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, or slightly raised when dog is moving.
~~

Over the years many breeders had aimed for the high, skyward pointing tails, I suppose as these look more flashy.  This type of tail in an undocked Dobermann curls over their back whereas the "continuation of spine without material drop" type of tail is much more like a dalmation (and I prefer that sort although I have both at the moment)

Hi Jennyb, I'm interested in the fact that, although you keep 3 traditionally docked breeds, you would dock some and not others. I myself am pro docking. I keep American Cockers and Irish Setters. Obviously I'd dock one and not the other, but no prizes for guessing which.

I'd be interested to hear the rationale for your decision.:) Inasmuch as you are clearly not anti docking per se.:)

Dawn R.

Thanks to everyone who has commented about tail docking in cockers and other breeds.  I have certainly learnt a lot and what I have read has help us to decide that we will not dock this litter (that is if she is pregnant, still waiting to know for sure, lots of signs but it is only day 26).  When I have seen docking done by a vet before with Yorkies, the pups certainly cried with pain, bled and were sore and the bitch was distressed.  Not very pleasant but in those days there was no choice.  Now at least there is a choice and I agree that everyone should decide for themselves without fear or favour.  Thanks again to everybody who answered.

From what I've seen the pups cry a lot more when their dew claws are removed.  I remember before the docking issue started that when I used to take my Pom's to have their claws done that the vet surgery always used to say "tails docking too"  this was on a breed that should never be docked.  My how times have changed in recent years!  I'm not totally pro or anti docking but whilst it's still allowed I will still have mine done legally.

csmad, there has always been a choice for docking or not.  It's just now many people have turned anti-docking.  Out of my grandparents boxers (they bred about 7 litters over many years and most where large litters) they had one problem dock where the puppy was in pain.  I'm not sure on the exact amount of puppies but still only 1 felt pain, the rest fo them didn't know anything about it, and from every docked breed of dog I have met has never had a problem in later life.  Nor have any of the mothers.

Docking went on for many years, no problems, then all of a sudden it hurts puppies? I have heard someone say it causes long term effects!!

Before anybody jumps down my throat, I would like to say out of the 5 litters we've had, 4 were docked and YES they do feel pain, so much so they cried all afternoon, which in turn stressed mum out, so for this reason and this reason only, I won't dock any longer.  Dew claws on the other hand, my vet uses an anaesthetic cream before removing them, so they feel nothing.  They are sold as pets and I don't feel they need to be docked.  Maybe if vets could use an anaesthetic of some sort people wouldn't be so against it.

SharonM I wd. be worried regardin the persons who docked those pups then becuase in the 13 years of having a docked breed not a single pup has cried for more than 10 seconds, if that !  Maybe I've been extremely lucky, I don't know but I wdn't dock mine if it went on that long.  Did they also do the dew claws at the same time?  As that is the only time that I've had pups cry for longer and I stopped having it done as they did seem to be in pain when the claws were done, though even then again it was only seconds and not for a long period.

I'm still not totally pro docking nor am I anti-docking.  I'm lucky in some ways that some of my dogs are born naturally bobtailed and if I breed from the bobtails (NOT BOBTAIL TO BOBTAIL THOUGH) I will get half the litter naturally bobtailed.

SharonM I wd. be worried regardin the persons who docked those pups then becuase in the 13 years of having a docked breed not a single pup has cried for more than 10 seconds, if that !  Maybe I've been extremely lucky, I don't know but I wdn't dock mine if it went on that long.  Did they also do the dew claws at the same time?  As that is the only time that I've had pups cry for longer and I stopped having it done as they did seem to be in pain when the claws were done, though even then again it was only seconds and not for a long period.
I agree with you completely!  I worked as a Veterinary Nurse and have also seen breeders band their pups before the "thou shalt not" days and I've not seen pups cry with pain.  Wriggle and yell at being held by a stranger at the Vets, certainly, but not cry with pain.  Vets either do a lot and do it well, or need to perfect their performance, just like the rest of us humans doing something that we don't do very often.  Breeders of docked breeds had, in those days, invariably been taught about all aspects of breeding by their old and experienced mentor in their chosen breed.  I must admit that doesn't happen these days and anyone who owns a bitch thinks that they should be entitled to breed them.:(  Times change, I suppose and maybe that was one of the considerations for bringing in the docking changes?

Are some vets that don't dock anymore more worried about the repurcussions )sorry can't spell) rather than they don't agree with doing it ?  Just wondered as my vet doesn't dock but has shown an interest in my breed and would want a docked or naturally born bobtail rather than one with a long tail.

Were your 4 litters all docked by the same person, SharonM?  I suppose if they were you would not know any different but if I had a litter that cried all afternoon I certainly would not have used that vet again.  I'm not sure how they managed to hurt the puppies I wonder if infact it was their dewclaws particularly if something like iodine was applied.  Tails do not need anaesthetic because the nerve through the tail is not complete at under 5 days old.  Don't forget puppies are born after just 9 weeks gestation compared the the 9 months it takes to make a human baby, to enable the mother to get out hunting food again without a huge belly the pups are born as soon as they can survive and all they need to do that is lie quietly and respond to the warmth of their mother to seek food, they don't need their hearing or their sight so that part of their development is not completed before they pop out, similarly they don't need, at this stage, to be able to move tails to communicate either so their birth does not have to wait for the nerve to complete its development down from the spinal column.  Humam babies are, of course, much more developed so chopping their fingers off would be a completely different matter!

I would dock my Spanish because that is the way that I prefer them they are very active and they just look better that way, however Springers look good with tails, my one is show stock, has never worked,never would work and her pups would go to pet homes,if anyone wanted one to work I would send them elsewhere to a working Springer breeder. Although I dont work my Spanish someone might buy a pup to work,because my girls could work if trained too, as for cockers she too is show stock I just prefer them docked, I might change my mind, or have it forced upon me in the future who knows.
The last litter I had done were banded by the vet,they didnt seem to feel a thing,no noise not even a whimper, the tail just dropped off a few days later, they screamed when the dew claws were done even with a anesthetic cream on, !!!!, it doesnt really make sense that people can still do their sheep etc, yet some people make docked dog owners feel like theyre cruelly mutilating their dogs without thought for the fact that it is done by a vet with anesthetic.I too have seen working dogs with their tails ripped it is far worse than docking to have it amputated at that late stage in life.

I have never docked my schips always found more than enough homes for them sooo many people want them with tails I couldn't breed enough even if I wanted to.  I get many enquiries from people who want different docked breeds with full tails, they seem to think because I keep tails on my own breed I MUST know breeders in other breeds who do the same, always pass them onto ADA.  My only worry is that puppy farmers will try to use the tail issue as a way of showing themselves to be better breeders because they don't dock!

Lifestock docking is a different issue, my grandfather stopped docking his sheep in the 60's and then followed with his working springers and jackies, he was losing too many tups when he did them and then again when they were castrated so he stopped docking and never had a problem admittedly he had to keep a closer eye on them incase of flyblowing but that happens with docked sheep just as much.  The law allows lifestock to be docked but there must be enough tail left to cover the anus, for many farmers sheer numbers make it more practice to dock than not as far as they're concerned.

My friend has stopped docking her pups so hasn't produced a docked litter for 3 yrs, she's top breeder for 04, only the 2nd time in her show career and it's driving us nuts that her dogs that are docked made the only male champ for our breed in 04 with his son's taking Dog CC & Res CC and BOB at Crufts 04 along with another taking his 2nd & BOB and their father is almost an Am Champion just needs 3 majors to finish yet the judges made no bones about disregarding the same bloodlines because they have tails, needless to say the KC have had a strong letter about this as our money is good regardless of whether or not the dog on the end of our leads are docked or tailed.  Does this make us think twice about docking?  Not a chance neither of us will dock it's just nice to have the proof in writing and results to show the quality of our animals is very good just unfortunate some judges are tail shy, this year we have 8 tailed schips that can and will be shown at various times more people are joining us in the ring with our stock eventually the judges will realise they have to withdraw or judge more fairly ------- yep we've made a New Years resolution to KC any and all judges who make it obvious they're against tails as they are the very people who put overseas exhibitors off bring their dogs over to compete.

At the end of the day breeders say there is a choice to dock or not but in reality that choice is breed dependant especially when it comes to the show ring, you have to decide if you're going to follow the crowd and dock to improve your show prospects or not and accept the downside of showing a tailed version, at the end of the day someone somewhere has to make the first tailed champion in the breeds do you want to be doing the hard slog and hope it's you or wait till someone else does it?

Why is everything so black and white nowadays?

We are supposed to be living in a 'democracy', this means that the views of the minority are accepted even though they may be in conflict with the majority.

There was the recent case of the hunt ban and now the possibility of tail docking being banned. I neither hunt or have a dog with a docked tail, but I absolutely support the rights of the people who fall into this minority to do as they wish without being bullied by the majority.

This country is becoming so Politically Correct and full of hypocrisy that is sickens me. if the procedure has no effect on the welfare of the animal, and while it continues to be acceptable to dock sheep, castrate pigs and de-horn calves, let it continue. There are more important things in life than worrying about whether a puppy has a tail or not. It probably does hurt for a while, but so does tattooing and microchipping of puppies (anyone heard the noise that some of them make while being done?), but I still think that permanent identification is worth the pain, or should this be banned also?

Many dogs are kept all their lives in an overfed, underexercised condition. To me this is real cruelty, not the momentary discomfort of docking, tattoing, chipping, removal of dewclaws or any other uncomfortable procedure applied to puppies.

Snomaes

Curiosity killed the cat here - but out of interest...
of the many breeders who have responded to this thread and openly state they no longer dock yet regularly breed... what are you reasons for breeding...money? to feed the pet market? what?

I thought the only reason for breeding is to maintain or improve the standard of the breed, whether for working aspects or conformation, without docking (in our current show climate) how can you achive this?

It is not sufficient to claim you 'do all the health checks' your dog can pass all the tests and still be a poor representative of the breed... also it is unlikely that the top stud dogs in your breed would be available to a litter destined for the pet market as undocked pups.

Just curious... it seems this site tries to educate people to breed for the right reasons, how can the site regularly condone pet owners breeding from pets when here are breeders breeding soley for the pet market?

Sharon

Sharon, undocked dogs are perfectly showable (at least one of the customarily-docked terrier BoBs at last year's Crufts was undocked) so to say they are solely for the pet market is simply untrue. Many do well in the show ring.
:)

Can't honestly say that I've seen any tailed Cockers do well at Champ Shows JG.