Moonmaiden

I did not say I held my dog's muzzle, I said my bitch did. I did realise this was totally different to ME doing it , which is why I did not do it.

You are not the only person on this list with knowledge of dogs and their behaviour.

I have not offered a "solution" because I would not assume to do so without getting to know a dog first. Unfortunately, the bitch who disciplined my dalmatian very successfully  is now dead so I cannnot offer her services either.

She was successful where an obedience trainer of many years experience- he also graced the big ring - gave up, and a trainer of GSD security dogs also handed me the lead back saying " you have  a tough one there!" but offered no suggestions.

I`ve also seen my bitches holding pups mouths in theirs.

I like to keep an open mind myself, found thats the best way of learning. For me that is :D

Christine, Spain.

I quoted you as you said this dog held the mouth shut for several minutes whilst not in the submission position ie whilst the dog was not being held down to the ground but had the muzzle totally held in the other dog's mouth different to a bitch pinning a puppy to the ground, unless the other dog was a huge Great Dane this would not be possible due to his size & would only make matters worse due to the human intervention he has already suffered & if it was possible would probably lead to him learning that it was ok to be aggressive to other dogs-he is currently ok with other dogs

I am still waiting for suggestions from people who use physical force to impose their requirements on thier dogs like holding the muzzle shut to stop biting

Apart from digger no one has offered any ideas I suppose I will have to try my old fashioned motivational ways

Exactly right, Moonmaiden. My bitches do not pin their puppies to the floor, they simply hold their heads at pup's head level (whilst the heads are small enough to completely take into their mouths). When the pups are bigger they hold the muzzle, again at pup's (or adult dog's in my case nowadays) head height. With those pups who are now taller than her, she has to reach up to hold their muzzles.

Moonmaiden why don`t you start another thread asking for suggestions for your specific dog rather than using this one, maybe then you can put your case & people will offer their help? I mean you`ve only asked for suggestions in the middle of this posters thread.

Christine, Spain.

No point Christine as I will only get suggestion such as holding the dogs mouth shut, wearing a muzzle, etc the phyiscal means as my non physical means have already been poo poo'd as out of day & Digger good suggestion is already being used

I could always ask for the bigger dog possible to do this cure all muzzle holding technique everyone is so keen on although as he is a very strong dog(broke the strongest mizzle the army had avaialable)perhaps an crocodile or the Aussie crocodile bloke would be better to muzzle hold

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your posts, Moonmaiden, but the OP is talking about an 8-week old puppy who hasn't been with his mother and littermates long enough to learn the basics of correct canine behaviour. This is in no way the fault of the OP.

However, gentle muzzle-holding (using no more violence than an adult taking a toddler's hand to lead it across the road) is the way very many bitches discipline their puppies at this age (and indeed, for the rest of their lives, given the opportunity).

You seem to have moved the goalposts from discussing a baby puppy to a much older dog, who perhaps has also missed out on correct canine teaching. The two scenarios are very different.

The OP described the puppy as aggressive not me & the OP was told to scruff & twist the puppy by the loose skin on the neck,

Another poster then brought in the holding the muzzle & telling No(never heard a dog speak but I'm sure others will have)

This is exactly how(the muzzle holding) the dog in rescue was dealt with both by the breeder, new owner & the police for the nipping that became biting that became not being able to be touched around the head & nack at all Hence the dumping of the dog in rescue(the original pursahser had signed to say the police/forces had to return the dog to them otherwise the forces would have had him PTS). The dog ended up being handed over to the forces who rekected him for biting & return the dog sedated to the owner(they had tried the box muzzle which the dog had got out of  & shredded on the way to being returned to the owner & the army trainer(as seen on TV mankandling a GSD in Bosnia) had had the vet sedate him before putting on the muzzle. I would hate for this "aggressive"8 week old puppy rottie to go down the same route for the want of a little(greatly outdated it now appears)common sense method of ending the contact, walking away from the nipping & rewarding when contact did not result in nipping. Instead it was suggested the modern & forward thinking of holding the puppy's muzzle shut & presumably giving the puppy full eye contact whilst saying no every time it started nipping & growling(cannot see how holding a dogs mouth shut would stop it growling but who am I to gainsay forward looking "behaviourist"/trainers )

I'll leave this thread to the more open minded people who will try all the methods going to correct a fairly minor problem of a very small puppy & apply my outdated closed mind methods to the poor dogs that end up with me

Moonmaiden, you're welcome to come and meet my dogs, who have all been disciplined by their mums by having their muzzles held, and see just how much of a negative effect it has on a normal dog (ie, none!).

>No point Christine as I will only get suggestion such as holding the dogs mouth shut, wearing a muzzle, etc the phyiscal means as my non physical means have already been poo poo'd as out of day & Digger good suggestion is already being used

If that's what you think Moonmaiden, then where was the point of pushing so frequently for someone to suggest something to you??

Well said spaniel-lover! 

I wouldn't dream of offering you any suggestions Moonmaiden, because you know all the answers to everything anyway.  Nobody else knows as much as you.  Nobody else has as much experience as you
I think that it's wonderful that the fount of all knowledge has found their way to our humble board!

It's just a shame that you take great pride in sarcastically criticising other peoples' experience!

PS I've hopefully copied (probably not as good as you!) language that you understand

Other people's 'experiences', Val, are obviously completely fabricated nonsense.

Well said Val, as someone else put it on a different thread...........drippingly sarcastic.

"Just for your information I have probably learn more in the last two years about dog behaviour & training than in the previous 30 sum, by listening to motivation trainers"

What everyone is trying to say to you Moonmaiden is that, you may have done the above, but that we are talking about watching how dogs themselves correct a youngster who has got to big for their boots.

Surely that is the basics of all dog training watching the animals themselves!!!! and learning from that.

Until last year I was very lucky I had a perfect example of a top bitch, she could hear the change of tone from play fighting to something more serious and would intervene before it escalated.  I learnt a lot from watching her behaviour and have continued to copy her correction methods, which work in my pack.

Like JG you are welcome to come and see my dogs and how much they love and respect me and my methods, and before you ask, no I do not beat them into submission I just use natural methods of discipline.

Exactly, Lady D. As Gwen Bailey says in her books (the ones recommended by Moonmaiden) "If discipline is needed, it should be given in a similar way to that in which a bitch disciplines her pups". (Page 179 of my copy of The Perfect Puppy). So we are all relating how our bitches discipline their pups.

I don't think you can beat watching a harmonious set of dogs in their interactions.

I do know of two rather different set ups people have when a larger number of dogs are kept.  there are those like me who tend to do mimimum interference with the dogs interactions with each other, unless I think things are getting a bit silly and I step in and tell them enough, but that is generally over exuberance, or the odd cross word to ensure things don't get out of hand.

There are other people though who never let any pecking order develop as they control everything, they are the only leader and do not allow for any really natural order.  I have known very controling owners like this who even tell the bitch with pups when she should go in and out of the whelping box, and the bitch seemed totally incapable of deciding anything for herself.  This kind of bitch would make a very poor puppy teacher.  I also think in this context that a poorly socialised bitch (0ne used as a breeding machine by puppy farmers or owners with little care for mental development of the bitch) could also end up with pups with poor interdog skills, especially as the pups get taken away too soon.

What I am clumsily trying to say is that when we take into account how adult dogs treat pups and each other we have to differentiate between dogs with good interdog skills and those without who are just acting reactively.

I do hope the Original poster is still reding this thread, as it is a bit difficult to read the advice among the opinion. :D

I have  male who discipline my 'new arrivals' in the 'head holding method'...they pin the pup to the floor with its head in their mouth while it is small enough and then as theyget bigger just the muzzle....along with a quick verbal 'snap'!!!
I have an adolescent 11 month old elkie male who is a very pushy little chap(submissive to my dog that does the discipling but not to the other male who he pesters the life out of and is pushing for dominance) ...I use the mouth holding method as nothing else works...he couldn't care less about being banished,shouted at,or anything else...he thinks hes a real hard case!!He is not however head shy...he is a show dog and needs to have his head handled and examined by me and strangers...and he does so no problem.
I.like Brainless,try to let my dogs develope their own heirachy...unless things get serious..which it never has.With my breed they tend to be 'all mouth and no trousers'...well my lot anyway.Sounds horrendour but no teeth involved.
MM...I wish you luck with the GSD and hope you can sort the poor chap out....I have no suggestions to offer but I do wonder if there are other additional reasons for his behaviour other than just the mouth holding....either that or the mouth holding was done in a particularly brutal way.
Archer

I am really sad that people still are bickering! :(

Come on folks, let's all have a bit more decorum on the forum ;)

My take on the above is this; those that know me know i train with positive methods and i never choose to recommend anything physical for several reasons, one being because many people will be reading this and some may be not very good at timing etc and cause more problems than they solve with a physical method.

I am not saying all physical methods are wrong - they will work for some and as long as they are fair and the dog understands and is not frightened/submissive i have no real problem with them (although i choose to do things differently because i believe that there is infact no need for anything physical, but that's another thread!).

I am fairly certain that muzzle holding is in fact partly used amongst some canines as a calming gesture amongst otheres, BUT, much will depend on the preceding info re body language etc.  A calm person using such a method will be very different to someone who is angry and we have to consider this as we give advice on the net.

Some people will hold the muzzle and will be very threatening indeed, with voice and language (probably the case with Moonmaiden's poor GSd) and this is very wrong indeed. I hope people will agree? In such a case, dogs may well become aggressive, that is common sense, so MM does have a point at least. I am thankful for people such as her who will consider taking on a difficult dog that may otherwise be put to sleep. I am sure she will have success with the dog :)

I have had the odd disagreement with MM, in the past, (can hardly remember now to be honest) but, MM generally gives sound advice and i for one would lean in her direction if i wanted advice.

Lindsay
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Well said Lindsay

Thanks Satincollie :)

Lindsay
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Looks like you've got a little trio Lindsay!  :rolleyes:  
I often don't agree with your opinion Lindsay,:D but I respect your experience and never find your attitude offensive.  You are never sarcastic, neither do you goad people to reply to you! :(

I'm sorry you think I'm acting as a trio with Lindsay and Moonmaiden but if you care to check I have had  my disagreements with  MM on all things Border Collie.I don't believe I've ever disscussed anything with you before Valarie so how you know my opinions I'm not sure can't say I've ever thought you were way off mark either.MM doesnt do herself any favours but I can't see what is wrong with motivational methods of training and this thread has got way off the original posters question so I think I will leave it now I've said my piece.Gillian

Didn't mean to offend you by enrolling you in the club, Gillian. ;)  There's nothing wrong with different methods or different opinions, it's attitudes to others that makes posts offensive. :)

Now i am confused - I thought Val was referring to the fact that she agreed with JG and you Gillian  
Ah well - I'm off to bed now! G'night all!

Lindsay
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Fair point Lindsay, but perhaps if people weren't accused of being liars because their experiences differ from Moonmaiden's they wouldn't get so annoyed.
:)

Thanks Val and Jeangenie :)
I do think internet debating skills are very hard to learn and especially when peeps feel very strongly about things, and passions run high, we can all end up throwing caution to the winds can't we! :D

I just don't want to see anyone chucked off.

Lindsay
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Having read all, I think, the posts by MJF I would come up with a totally different solution.

At five weeks old these pups were probably only just starting to play with each other and explore their environment away from their den.  Little "real" human interaction takes place before this as the pups are still learning.

My first choice would be to find someone who has a litter of pups, preferably a week older and put your puppy in with them so he will be "bullied" and learn he is not top of the pack.  Not many breeders would allow this in case of bringing in infections and most of their pups will already have gone but you may be able to find someone with one puppy?

Alternatively find someone who has a mature bitch who knows how to put puppies in their place - I feel that dogs have to learn dog manners before they can learn ours as it makes it easier for them.

I too have seen adult dogs grabbing and holding puppies muzzles, I have seen it done by males too, notably my Dobermann on many occasions to the baby Borders that came here, he never hurt them but it did work, they learned repect.

People talk about these "proffessional" trainers, I always find it amusing that said trainers opt for "trainable" dogs like GSD's and Collies, well yes, I think I could do that very well thank you!  Lets see them with Huskies or Akitas for example, their "skills" would then be tested.  I don't find anything particuarly skillfull in training a dog to be welded to your leg!

Let bygones be bygones, people who seek advice on here, MUST genuinely care.
Dawn.

Well said Dawn!

Well Bruno has just tried it again sat on the floor he was laid at the side of me and out of the blue he turned round growled and then snapped but instead of moving i stayed there and growled back at him he just looked at me and scapered, so hopefully this may be the way forward. I only did it queitly but he understood it, so fingers crossed.
Thank you to everybody for your advice i appreciate you taking the time to reply to me

Ollie puts Moss's muzzle in his mouth and pushes him away mainly because Moss is very in his place and Ollie is the top dog. The odd ocation the puppy does whimper and Ollie gets told gentle. I think different people have different ways of training i hit Ollie once and never again would i do it to any of them i didnt hurt him put he was totally shocked and i filled with guilt. But sometimes i will push my dogs noses away from something they shouldnt be doing like chewing or biting at the same time i say no and give them something they are allowed like one of their toys then praise them for playing with their toy. Not everyone will agree with the way i do it but it works for me. Id definately take your rottie to training classes and get some socialisation and basic training done. My friend had a rottie pup who when a puppy used to growl when they picked her up or if she felt like nipping she would and they just ignored her and folded their arms and eventually she learnt it was unwanted behaviour

We've had Rotts all our married life and this behaviour being described is quite normal for a pup.  They are just playing even though it sounds horrendous on occassion, they are feeling the water so to speak and finding out how far they can go before being reprimanded all part of learning.  I think this is when new owners of the breed tend to get worried (partly because of the breed they have).  A puppy of that age cannot be properly aggressive and the majority of their learning is done via play all be it very boisterous.  I will get slated for this but we've always scruffed our pups when young (up until 12 weeks old).  If they've overstepped the mark we've very swiftly bent down and picked the pup up by the scruff - nothing else - no twitch or shake just a pick up.  They've always immediately gone limp and then they are put down straight away.  The whole process is over with in seconds and leaves the pup in no doubt that getting over boisterous is not acceptable.  I feel that this is partly why so many Rotts end up in rescue - because they haven't been taught proper manners from an early age.  They are very complex dogs to raise properly and naturally want to take the lead.  This has definately been the quickest learning curve for them all and has done them absolutely no harm.  I won't make anymore comments about this as some members will come along after me and give 'their opinions' about the for and against scruffing not always polite either.  I wonder what breed of dog the most critical members on this forum have???  Not perhaps a large male working dog that needs to learn his place in our family where there are children without question! 

Thanks for your advice it is worrying like you say with them being rotties if it was a little shitzu or yorkie it would be laughed off, but there is a large quantity of these dogs in rescue, from lack of proper training with them being so determined, i have never had a rottie b4 but i have been reading alot of books on them and trying to learn as much as poss.

Just got in from work and cought up with things.

Moonmaiden, you get top marks for your small minded approach to being told you werent 100% correct in your method. GROW UP!

As i said before, you are not the be all and end all of training. NO i would not take the GSD with a behavioural problem and massive fear of being touched round the head etc because i cant stand the breed. Yes i have owned 2 but i do not like them. I could never spare thousands of pounds for its keep, care and re-training costs with such a lack of enthusiasm for the breed. You do it, since you are oh so wonderful!

After following this board for a while before registering i didnt expact this behaviour from you Moonmaiden!
GM

just because some one has been doing something for years doesnt meen they are good at it, my uncle has been a police man for years, doesnt mean hes a good one, my friend has been a teacher for years, for all i know she could be terrible with kids!!, obviosly moonmadien people who have been doing something for a long period will have picked up a lot of knowledge, but sometimes they cant see the wood for the trees, they get so caught up in there own ego and everyone coming to them for advice, thsat they dont listen to any one elses opinion and cant admit they might be wrong . oh well such is life, looks like the original poster has already started to find something that his having an affect, good luck with that knitting moodmaiden!! xx

We are all supposed to be being polite to each other re the rules on the forum - or we can get chucked off! Let's remember this .... ;)
I for one am happier debating with no insults, real or implied, and no name calling...

My view is that a good owner/trainer/handler can train any breed with an understanding of the breed, and an understanding of how to praise, and also how to give consequences if necessary (but without need for physical stuff). Ian Dunbar can train a Malamute, my friend can train a Dobe... and so on.

Lindsay
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i know your right lyndsey, i typed first thought later, sorry moonmaiden am sure your very good at what you do, just dont like it when people think they are always right, and patronise new members. xx

Ok please start being nice to each other now agree to disagree and smile were here to help and advise each other. This isnt aimed at anyone just be nice!

Ahem This is a rescue GSD that has abuse from both the breeder & first owner & then the police & finally the armed forces

I train all sorts of rescues including staffies by the score before they can be rehomed, I personaly do not like the breed because to me they are ugly however I do not hate the breed as most have incredible characters in fact the worse they are treated the more thay true nature when treated correctly comes out

This puppy is NOT aggressive he is unsocialized & needs to be educated as to what is & isn't acceptable & mauling him about in the manner you describe as being acceptable will not in my experience work. Sqeaking when nipped(or bitten as the OP called it)will turn it into a game, grabbing & holding the muzzle closed when nipped again gets a reaction & the puppy could learn(as many dogs do)that even this unpleasant reaction is better than none, it could(and has in the case of at least three dogs I dealt (not GSDs but a lab, a golden & a staff)with in the past three months encorage the dog to do more nipping & holding because that is what they had learnt worked to get attention.

Why has no one offered me advise re the GSD I will start work with next week ? My methods are wrong the holding the muzzle & scruffing & twisting haven't worked so were do I go next ? The vets I suppose for the needle He would not cost thousands to feed etc The rescue he is in could not afford that nor a"behaviourizts"fees either ! Odd when you are asked for ideas you have none to offer other than those that have been tried & not worked with this dog

sigh

Hi, i'm fascinated by the opinions on the actual topic of aggression as ive just posted one under the topic of rescue dogs about a maremma sheepdog.

Although the 'banter' between u lot scares me a bit the topic itself means alot to me as im not experienced and need the tips.

Thanks for the help ive received in the past and i hope your tips keep coming as its invaluable when you dont know other people with dogs in your area.

Happy new year guys

Just wanted to say mjf, what a kind and caring person you are to take on this pup in the first place. Alot of people would have turned their backs on him, seeing the situation he was living in. I wish you lots of luck with him and hope he turns out to be the dog of your dreams, he may be hard work but it will be worth it in the end.

moonmaiden i accept your apology!!

what appology? where? wheres mine lolol

Where are your suggestion for training the puppy then ? & I'll try them with the rescue

The OP hasn;t used the technique suggested by the vet thank god & if they get Gwen B's too books they will leanr non physical ways of training dogs

i too can attest to the inter-dog muzzle clamping.
i work at a rescue centre. i adopted a 1 year old white GSD nearly 3 years ago.
first year of her life she spent loads of her time with my colleague's older collie cross,
and she would be all fawning over him, to the point of being too licky licky under the chin and submissive, getting in his way.
he always stopped her when she'd gone too far by suddenly clamping his mouth over her muzzle for a few seconds.  this way she kept her tongue in her own head and stopped her annoyances!!
this became a regular daily ritual, and we all thought this amusing, harmless, and didnt interfere.
then one day my girl got round her collie boyfriend's attempts to curb her fawning ways by running up to him and sticking her muzzle into his mouth *of her own accord*, before he even thought of it!!
this became the new ritual for the next year!
and this was two adult dogs!
very true very comical.

clutha

Any progress, mjf ??

My Briard puppy was displaying the same behaviour at 7 1/2 weeks when we got him, and I have 2 small children too. He has been to 2 puppy socialisation classes (12 weeks worth since 10 weeks old) and is now 6 months old. He still mouthes all the time, and we try to ignore and turn our backs, but he just nips and growls at our backs, legs, bottoms (sometimes a bit close for comfort with his teeth). How do you ignore that? If we let him in with the children aged 3 and 5 he has to be on his lead. He is a beautiful boy and we love him dearly, but this has got to stop and I dont know how. It is like he is trying to dominate us, and we have been doing what we thought were all the right things (ignoring the behaviour, gesture feeding etc), but it just doesnt seem to be working. I will not give up on him, but I am running out of ideas! Any advice on this would be appreciated.

hi julia.juliebob, it may be better if you cross post this by starting a brand new thread for your problem, as the reason i asked if there is any progress is that this thread hadnt been added to for several days and was nearly relegated to page two.
thus, you may not get any replies here, esp considering that the thread went off its orginal topic and turned into a long squabble, so it think everyone may have preferred to concentrate on other threads now.

clutha

Ignoring puppy biting has it's place, but all dogs learn quicker if encouraged to do the right thing as well as not get rewarded for the wrong thing, so make sure when he does stop biting because he's been ignored, that he gets encouraged to play in an appropriate way, with a ragger for example :)