i HAVE A ROTTWEILER PUP THAT IS JUST OVER 8 WEEKS OLD AND HE KEEPS BEING QUITE AGRESSIVE TOWARDS MYSELF AND CHILDREN,
IS THIS ANYTHING TO WORRY ABOUT OR WILL HE GROW OUT OF IT.

In what way is he aggressive? All puppies mouth and chew anything they can, and that includes people, simply because that is normal canine behaviour! They need to be taught that humans are sissy softies who can't play the way dogs can. If this is indeed what your puppy does (and I would be astonished if it is anything else), then make sure that every time (yes, every time) he starts mouthing you all instantly stop playing with him, and completely ignore him. Don't even look at him. Some pups respond well and stop for a second if you yelp loudly, whereupon you can give him a toy and praise him when he chews that instead. This mouthing often happens when the pup gets over-excited, in which case it's down to you as the responsible person to ensure games are kept calm so the situation doesn't arise. Not easy with children, but vital!

By the time he is a few more weeks older it should pretty much have stopped. Don't expect too much, too soon!

I suggest you buy a copy of 'The Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Bailey, because it is full of helpful advice regarding training, rearing, feeding, exercising etc. Good luck.

It is possible that you are talking about puppy biting/mouthing which is very normal and nothing to worry about. Also some pups will charge around and get excited and growl as they run towards you etc.

I would suggest doing a search on here for puppy mouthing; also get a copy of the puppy owners bible, "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey which is excellent and will take you into adolescence and beyond.

Also i would suggest enrolling NOW into a pup socialisation class - try www.puppyschool.co.uk or www.apdt.co.uk for one near you. Trainers will then be able to see first hand what is happening and offer help if needed :)

Lindsay
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NO IT'S NOT THE MOUTHING LIKE ALL PUPPY'S DO HE IS GROWLING QUITE NASTY THEN TURNS VERY QUICKLY TO BITE US, I HAVE FOUND A LOCAL PUPPY CLASS BUT I HAVE TO WAIT TILL HE IS FULLY JABBED.
AT THE MOMENT WHEN HE DOE'S THIS I PUT HIM IN THE DOG CRATE AND IGNORE HIM FOR A WHILE, BUT I AM STARTING TO WORRY ABOUT THIS NOW, WE Have had him since he was just under 6 weeks old and i don't think he was socialised before we got him as he was living outside and in a sorry state, i have had him to the vets twice for a check and jabs and he said he was a healthy puppy, so there is no health problem which maybe causing this.

It seems from your second post that you know how pups mouth and bite and that this seems different. It also does appear that the pup had a very difficult time from a pup and if he was not well socialised he may have missed out on vital stuff. Did the vet give him a really thorough check up? as he could be in some pain, if he wasnot well looked after who knows if he was kicked/dropped etc and has some damage somewhere?

If you really are worried, i would suggest contacting a good trainer (try the list i mentioned) who could come around and assess the pup. I have also PMd you :)

Lindsay
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Hi the fact that he has had little or no socialisation and that he was seperated from his sibblings and dam early means that he hasn't had the chance to learn what is acceptable as far as rough play goes from interaction with them and so he hasn't had the first stage in learning not to be so rough. Littermates do play very roughly and vocally but mum will step in if things get out of hand. You have to be Mum and teach him these things.The Perfect Puppy is a very good book that gives sound advice that applied consistantly will help.

if it were my pup, (and i might get a backlash from others) i would hold his jaws together firmly and say no in a deep low voice everytime he does it, and when he plays nicely give him lots of praise, i think he needs to know his limits and who is the boss, puppy classes are a good idea too, i would like to say i have no experience in rotties, and am not a behavioirist, its just what i would do with my staffs, and they are all very good, potty, but very well behaved!! hope this helps x

<If it were my pup, (and i might get a backlash from others) i would hold his jaws together firmly and say no in a deep low voice everytime he does it, >

& what exactly would that result in ? Adog that resents having it's mouth & head touched <sigh>The walk away & ignore is what the puppies mother would do not grab the puppy by the muzzle. I just hope you never do what you suggest on a staffie you would end up with a load of trouble if you did

THE ADVICE I WAS GIVEN BY THE VET WAS TO GRAB THE SCRUFF OF THE NECK AND TWIST LIKE MUM WOULD AND TO AVOID EYE CONTACT WHEN DOING THIS SO HE DONT SEE IT AS A CHALLENGE, WHICH I HAVE TRIED , BUT I MUST ADMIT I FEEL GUILTY DOING THIS AS IT'S NOT HIS FAULT THE WAY HE WAS RASIED, AND TOSSED OUT SO YOUNG.  I KNOW YOU SOMETIMES  YOU HAVE TO BE CRUEL TO BE KIND, BUT I HAVE NEVER HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH DOGS IN THE PAST, AND I HAVE BEEN AROUND DOGS FOR 25 YEARS OR SO.
AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS A PACK THING BUT NOW I'M NOT SO SURE??

Cam you please noe use caps for posting as it makes it very difficult to read & is considrered rude & shouting on the internet

A mother would not grab a puppy & twist the neck I would love to know who thought that one up. Females will occasionally gently pin a puppy dowm by the neck but it is VERY gently done & only for a matter of seconds

i do apologise i wasn't being rude just wanted some advice. And that was what the vet suggested as mothers pick them up by the neck

i was not saying you pick them up by the neck and hold it for ages just a quick twist, i would not recomend anybody pick up a pup by it's neck or cause any harm to animal i love my animals and thats why i was asking for help

You can do a lot of harm twisting a puppy's neck & it is NOT something that is done by a bitch to her puppies & should not be done by a human either. Bitches rarely pick up puppies after they are a few days old & usually only if the bitch needs to move the puppies to safety. Vets are not experts on dog behaviour on a whole

do you thing i'm ringing it's neck ???? i asked for help not critism from you

I have given you advice <walk away & ignore> not scruff & twist, even for a few seconds, that sort of treatment should be relegated to the dustbin along with chokers & breaking dogs

i dont use chockers or beating never have my animals are all very spoilt and well loved and also with that very well trained and well behaved but this is something i have never seen in such a young pup and is very worrying when your 8 week old pup take's a chunk out of your 5 yr old because he just walked past him, i wasnt happy with what the vet said so i asked on here

moonmaiden you seem to be very good at putting others down, i have actually done that with a staff!! ine of my bitches ( whos passed away now) was badly socialised, and would growl at us, we did exactly what i said, i only had to do it a few times, and it worked a treat, she turned out to be a very nice friendly bitch, i love all my dogs very much, and wouldnt dream of hurting them, it might not have been the right thing to do, but it worked for us, and id rather go of pratical experience than a text book! im not saying it would work on every case, if i had ignored it i might of ended up with the same result, but who knows. so the remark if you did that to a staff youd have trouble, was far from the truth in our case. im sure the original poster will get there in the end which ever method he chooses, we all bring up our dogs differently!!

Yeh, we did that too, and ended up with a dog that will bite you if you try and touch his face, bite you if you try and put his lead on, and snap if you try and make him do anything you dont want.

My collies were brought up with the either loud "ouch" (which worked) or the ignore, both worked, and neither dog is aggressive at all.

So i agree with moonmaiden!

I have never know a bitch carry a pup by the scruff, they will normall take the whole of the pups body in the mouth at the age when they may need to be moved.  It is cats with their much smaller jaws who carry their kittens this way, and this causes them to freeze in order to make this easier for the mother.  Cats carry their kits a4r5ound much more as would need to transfer them more often than a bitch who has the benefit of pack protection for her young in a more permanent den.

I don't think Moonmainden was meaning to come over critically of you bit the poor advice your vet gave.  His expertise is treating and diagnosing illness, not dog training.

Sorry, but your vet is describing something I have never seen a bitch do in the 30 years I've had breeding bitches. How long has s/he been breeding litters?

The holding shut of the jaws and the low growling is, however, how my bitches have disciplined their pups (though they tend to take the whole head in their mouths). Result - instant obedience, but with no violence.

probably never but it's the first place a person goes for help and we tend to trust their advice, but like i said i wasn't happy doing this so needed help from people who have been there and done it as it's the best way to get advice from sombody who has had the same problem

You know what strikes me nowadays, just how many "nasty" dogs in one way or another there are.  Years ago, none of this took place, choke chains were not harsh, nobody was scared to slap the dog if it were naughty etc.....   and the same goes for kids!!!    People are far too quick to condemn others for their way of training or treating, when in my opinion things are getting worse by the day in spite of it!  Just my opinion, no offence intended, everyone is perfectly entitled to train their dogs whichever way they see fit.
Dawn.

Thanks for that i was starting to feel like a monster for trying something that the vet had suggested.
And i must agree with you things nowadays are out of hand we are not allowed to punish our children,
and people are complaining at the state of the world, i think some people need to take a step back and look at what is happening.
I don't think anybody deserves to be hit don't get me wrong but in some cases it's probably well needed.

kids thrive on love and affection, AND they are at there happiest when boundries are set, this doesnt always mean physical force, but if your sttrict whilst they are young i doubt youll encounter many major problems, i dont think dogs are much different, especially staffs they are like big kids!!    

Yes they are i had a staffie for a few wonderful years we got her from rescue and she never liked being treated as a dog she preferred to be one of the kids right till she passed away.

Just because you like to manhandle your dogs sarstaff does not mean it is right You have been lucky with your dogs if they enoy having their muzzle grabbed & held shut & that you have never harmed a puppy by twisting the loose skin on it's neck

Sadly I have seen & had to retrain dogs treated just like this of all sorts of breeds becaise their owners were using 40 + year old methonds of dog breaking because that is want it is it Enforcing your will on your dog Better to educate the dog using natural methods that it's mother & dog pack would have used.

Like hitting a dog no matter how gently you think it is is still using force. The first dog I professionally trained was treated as you treat yours scruffed & muzzle grabbed At 6 months of age she(a GSD)was a broken dog too frightened to give eye contac or be touched on the face & yes her owner told me exactly what he had done & he used a choker to force her to walk to heal, it took me a year to get her back to where she should have been at 6 months old.

What makes you think I do do laid down boundaries ?

My dogs are trained through play & motivation from day one & it has been over 35 years since I used a collar & lead to train heelwork I have been doing all my training off lead for that long many years before it became fashionable I have owned & trained dogs the have won in Obedience(out of novice with my first obedience dog when she was 9 months old & in Ticket before she was 3 1/2 & she had WT quals as well & worked sheepdog trials as well. I have owned a champion beardie & other Ch Sh winners who were all shown free standing(not stacked as they are now)I also have owned/trained/handled a BC dog qualified to run at the national trials who also won at Ch shows in breed & did obedience as well as owning Schutzhund trained GSDs who wer also Ch sh breed winners & obedience trained

I have also devoted most of my spare time retraining rescue dogs who have either not been trained or have been so badly trained using out of date physical methods such as yours that they cannot be rehomed until their probelms are solved(including a dog whose owner used a riding crop to correct his dog just as he did his horse-both of course incorrect)

I have also helped rescue staffie owners solve the problems caused by the dogs being harshly physically trained & whose dogs now happily do agility & obedience

An 8 week old "nasty"puppy is very very rare, more likely the dog has not been handled correctly so that it learns that growling & nipping get no response, whereas gentle play & acceptable behaviour get treated & rewarded

Moonmaiden Can i make it clear i do not hit slap  or grab the dogs mouth nor do i do what the vet suggested, i am not cruel to my animals i love them very much, i can't HELP! the way my puppy was treated before i got him and can i say this has been happening since i brought him home, the only thing i want to do is help this puppy learn to stop doing this in the kindest way, i do not approve of hurting anybody or any animal, so please do not state that i do, i gather you have taken a disliking to me thats fair enough!!!
I work at a cat rescue and see animals coming in every day that have been mistreated and it breaks my heart this world is cruel place and like we were saying its from lack of discaplin, but at the end of the day there are still people out there that adore there pets and i being one of them, we all make mistakes we are human we don't all get it right first time, but people who care and would like to make a difference ask for Help!! just like i did. Can i just state that when i went to look at the puppys they were kept outside in a concrete coal bunker type thing with 3 adult dogs the puppy was dirty smelly and did not look too good, as most people would tell you walk away from breeders like that, but i couldn't leave him there he was the last one left, i took him and tried to feed him only to find that he had not been weaned, i gave him a bath and de mated his fur, snuggled him up and got him nice and warm, then first thing in the morning i took him straight down the vets, he had a cold and was  little under weight and in desperate need of worming, we was told he was 7 weeks old when we went to get him only to find when we looked at his papers when we got home he was only 5 weeks, but at the end of the day he was better off here than in that coal bunker, he has since been back to the vets had his first jab and his cold has cleared up, and he has gained weight nicely. I did not think it would be plane sailing buying as puppy in this state and maybe i shopuld of walked away but i think the little fella should be given a good chance with somebody who will love and care for him, and as soon as he is 12 wks old we will be off to puppy classes down the road which i have already booked, i do not want too hurt him just love him and educate him to become a wellbehaved young man

I was not replying to you but to sarstaff who suggested grabbing the dogs muzzle & holding it shut to stop the nipping(biting you call it but it is really only nipping)

I suggest you get hold of two of Gwen Bailey's books one on puppies & the other on rescue dogs. As your puppy has not received it's canine education from it's littermates & mother you will have to ensure your puppy understands what is acceptable like playing tuggy with a toy & what is not playing tuggy with your hands etc I took over a 6 month old bitch with the behaviour of a six week old puppy(the first dog I trained & was paid for doing so)she had no bite inhibition because she had never been taught that biting was not acceptable by being ignored & isolated(the owner leaving the dog & ignoring not the dog locked away)he had tried to stop her by shouting no whilst holding her mouth shut & had also grabbed her the scruff & shaken her(she needed a chiropractor to correct the damage done to her neck)

Treating & rewarding good behaviour(either food or toys or both)& ignoring & isolating immediately bad behaviour occurs does work & builds a trusting relationship bewteen owner & dog far better than a correction by physical means ever will

Thank you i will go and buy this book on Monday we are having great success with the normal nipping by yelping louding and he soon lets go we have lots of puppy freindly toys to distract this, and he has a dog crate which we use for time out although it is in the room where he can see us so he's not shut out on his own but he likes going in there with his toys.
And i am hoping that the growling and biting nastly will stop soon my only worry is for the children as these dogs do not stay small for long.
I have had dogs from rescue my last one was a staffie that had been mistreated very badly, but we succesfully calmed her down and made her last few years very happy but unfortunatly the damage she had suffered from the beatings she had meant she had to put to sleep at 8 yrs because her back gave up completley which broke our hearts there was nothing the vets could for her.

It may be that the advice given by the vet has exacerbated the problem, do you think this is possible? :)
For instance, if the pup was just pup mouthing (and it may have been hard if he was not with his litter mates as is usual at a young age as you know) and and the vet then suggested the method you followed, it could be actually making it worse.
But this woudn't really be the case if the pup was doing this beforehand.

Lindsay
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Hi lindsay i only tried it once in the vets and the vet told me to get the loose skin and twist which i did very lightly the dog didn't yelp or get hurt, i said to the vet i wasn't happy doing it and he couldn't suggest any other help except going to puppy classes which i will be doing when he is 12 wks old, he said that my other dog is very well behaved and it may rub off on him with the same training, i have never been to puppy classes before but i have been told that rotties really benefit from it, and i'm sure it will teach me aswell as him some great things.

I have five generations of dogs and find watching the discipline the bitches give and the interplay between the others and the pups very educational, and have found the pups born her once I had more dogs than just Mum are the ones that under5stand dog rules best.

The other dogs which to pups would be Grandmother, Great Grandmother and so on are less permissive to the 5 plus week pups than Mum usually is.  Whehn pups are being OTT or annoying the usual thing is a stiff stance, and a growl.  If this doesn't stop them then a quick air snap and bowling over for a second, at which stage pup instantly submits and the bitch walks away.  With Mum it usually takes a lot longer before she reacts.  The pups then know exactly how far they can go with each family member and act accordingly, so those that allow liberties, pups will take them.

I think this is the same as in the human famuly some dogs will be a s good as gold with one person, and take liberties with another.

I have found myself when the kids were small that it was important to supervise all the interactions betweejn pup and child so that you coulkd back the child up in a non confrontaional way as being above the pup, so that pup learns that certain behaviour will earn your disapproval (a growly short telling off, as in a growled No or OFF, low not loud) and withdrawal of attention, sending to CVoventry for no more than a minute.  I have then found calling pup over and doing a little training excersise like sit or whatever so that pup EARNS your approval has always worked best for me.  With an older returnee at the teenage stage I did have to back this up with aversive tactics(water spray in the face) for a dog very determined to treat me as a tug toy.

Moonmaiden, to be fair, I have seen many bitches gently taking their pups' heads in their mouths and giving a quiet low growl. There is no force, no pain, no violence. And it works. And they continue doing this, but holding their pups' muzzles instead of the head, when they're grown up with the same effect. I've never, ever seen a bitch 'scruff' a puppy, however, and would never do it. Gently holding a pup's muzzle shut is indeed reproducing the bitch's natural discipline.

My GSD often gently pins down the cavaliers when they get too excited but in the 45+ years I have owned dogs I have never ever seen one dog hold anothers mouth shut , pin down by the neck without any real pressure yes but never, never by the muzzle Perhaps GSDs, Beardies, BC's Cavaliers, Cardi Corgis, X breeds, Great Danes, Mini Wires & all the other dogs I have had close contact with are different to everyone else's in their behaviour I must ask around to see if I am the only person who has never seen one dog tolding another dogs muzzle shut without aggression

My bitches put their 4-5 week old pups' heads in their mouths if they are walking over the Dam when she is trying to sleep etc.  As you say, no bite, just to gently restrain. 
As the pups get bigger, become more boistrous (and misbehave more!) the bitch (gently but firmly) pins them to the ground by the back of their necks.
I've never seen them do it more than twice with each litter.  The whole litter seem to learn by watching what happens when naughty brother/sister misbehave!

But she did not hold their muzzles shut just pinned down gently but firmly It works well for our GSD as once she has done it to one the rest toe the line for the rest of the day or until she instigates play !

well moonmadien i think we will have to agree to disagree, what works for me doesnt work for you, i dont want people to think i am abusive to my dogs in anyway, far from it they are my babies, as i said before people bring their dogs( and kids) up differently, we could all argue for pages on this subject im sure!!

Well i thought id add something to this, since i have mother and daughter dogs here, mum is 6, daughter is 18 months. Still, when the daughter gets out of hand and is playing a little too rough mum will growl, shoulder the daughter to the ground and continue to growl while holding her there for a few seconds. Occasionally she will still gently mouth her muzzle and daughter stps immediately and runs off to chase her tail or partake in some other stupid passtime.

When i train my pups i use voice command and a gantle grasp of the scruff of the neck and hold the pup down for a few seconds. By the time the pup is 16 weeks NO is enough for them. I do not consider this to be cruel in any way, it is a gentle and easy way to get the pup to stop eating the telephone wire.

I was speaking to a breeder once about a dog she had bred that had been returned to her at 13 months due to a marriage break up. This boy came to her totally untrained, deciding he was alpha dog and he did what he liked. He was subsequently pinned up to a wall, forced to make eye contact and growled at. Again this worked perfectly for this particular person and the dog is still with her and doing ok in the ring with her.

Everyone does it differently, so long as you get a healthy happy dog at the end of it it doesnt matter.

And regarding the comparison of training dogs and raising children, I would never hit a dog but i know full well that a smacked bottom does every child good. There is no comparison to smacking a dog and smacking a child at all. I find it rediculous that people do make the comparison over two completely different species!!!!

GM

Well all the dogs I have been in very close contact with have never held a muzzle of a puppy closed from the front, top or side so they(around 1000+ plus dogs over 40 + years)must be the all be the exceptions that prove that adult dogs hold the mouths of puppies closed to stop biting Well well I must add that to my list of things learnt that are contrary to my limited experience of dogs, better get back to the knitting blankets instead of dog training. Which means there is a 16 month old police & forces reject lead shy dog that needs an experienced professional trainer's help Any takers from you successful dog behaviourists ?

Moonmaiden why are you being so hostile? Ok so you have never witnessed this in any of the dogs YOU have worked with, doesnt make us wrong!
Maby you need to sit back and have a think, you are not the be all and end all of dog training, other people do have and are entitled to their opinions and their say in trying to help this person and we should be sticking together to help this person, not brow beating every possible method of training that you didnt put on the board!
GM

Like I said I'm going back to knitting & let you the behaviourist experts do the advising & advise on an UNSOCIALIZED puppy not one that have been socialized normally until 8 weeks(same problem this reject rescue has)

Can I send you the reject to train to stop biting by holding its muzzle shut for a few minutes<my golden retriever bitch would  put her mouth over  his muzzle and hold it shut for a few minutes>, he is an english type 29 inches at the shoulder GSD & weighs around 40 kilos so it should be quite easy-PM me your details & I'll get the rescue to contact you for training & advice.?

Oh but the police & the forces have already tried that & guess what it made things 100% worse & he cannot now be handled around his head & shoulders at all

Maybe I should scruff him -nope the police guy tried that & got bitten in the lower arm

So what do you experts suggest the rescue should do ? PTS ? but he is fine except when anyone tries to put a lead on or touch his head ! Even the chiropractor had no problems putting his lower back right(he needs to have his neck sorted but for obvious reasons this cannot be attempted yet) But after your tried & tested methods have failed can be done ?

I await your knowledgeable experienced replies

Moonmaiden, have you thought about T touch or similar 'remote' techniques using an artifical hand/arm and being VERY aware of the dogs body language?  I think if I was in your situation, that would be the first route I would try.........

Thanx digger the kennel staff have been using T Touch with a feather on the end of a cat toy pole & it is working, he will never be able to wear a collar due to the injuries to his spine caused by the abusive training he has received in the past. He does reasonably nice heelwork off lead tho' but he will need a harness or sim training before he goes to his new home

I'll tell my bitches they've been doing it wrong all these years, Moonmaiden. Which book do you suggest I read to them to teach them the correct way to raise puppies? I'm sure the 9 year-old bitch will be relieved to be scolded in another way than having hr dam hold her muzzle, especially as she's taller than her mum!
:)

I have always been taught that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and my goodness I don't think I have ever heard anyone who is as sarcastic as you can be!!!

Just because someone doesn't agree with your methods, doesn't mean that they are wrong.  But if they are then surely there are different ways of trying to change their minds other than how you do it. 

Debating something is an art that you certainly, even if you have been a dog trainer for xx many of years, don't seem to have.

From your comments you must be of the same generation as I am, and one of the things I have learnt is that I will never stop learning not till the day I die.

Like JG I have seen many of my bitch's, especially my top bitch of the time, down a youngster who is getting to big for their boots, by grabbing them by the muzzle and holding them to the floor, with the result that the uppity youngster goes into the submissive position and reacts by licking around the top dogs muzzle, just as a pup would do.  It certainly has worked in this kennel for a good many years, or maybe in the same sarcastic way as you do I should say that they have been doing wrong and I should re-educate them!!!!

When my young dalmatian over stepped the mark my golden retriever bitch would  put her mouth over  his muzzle and hold it shut for a few minutes. He did not struggle, and backed off when she let go. He was older and bigger than her but obviously understood the message she was giving him.

My next retriever tried this also but she was a small working type whose mouth was not big enough to cover his. That didn't stop her trying though.

Said dalmatian also bit very badly from we got him at six weeks.- the normal homing age at that time. He literally sank his teeth into you as hard as he could. Nothing stopped him. If you prised him off your foot and put him down he immediately launched himself at you to sink his teeth in again. This was totally different from mouthing. We ended up putting him in his cage and ignoring him every time he did it.  Soemtimes he would repeat the behaviour as soon as he was back in the room again.

I then discovered growling very loudly at him made him back off. From then on success!

all I can add to this is...........well done mjf for going against all her better instincts and giving the pup a new home with an owner who obviously cares for his welfare.

for taking the time and trouble to post a thread asking for help, which from where Im sitting is again the actions of a responsible owner.You obviously have genuine concerns and to be honest an out of control Rottweiler does not bode well.You are exploring all avenues and I wish you the very best of luck with your baby.
Please let us know how he gets on.

One thing i would say is that humans cannot replicate the subtleties of bitch/pup behaviour - we are primates, not canines. I also believe that whilst some dogs will learn from being pushed about, this will only be the "middle of the road" dogs and not all of those. I like Moonmaiden know of dogs who responded badly to this type of control.

Dogs who are not middle of the road are more likely to turn aggressive if pushed up against a wall, forced to stare into the eyes etc. Or, lose trust and become overly submissive. AS soon as i hear the "alpha" word, i also know that in all probability the person who is training the dog will not know how else to deal with the situation. Neither do i feel eating a biscuit before feeding the dog will work <g>.

MOst so called alpha behaviour is totally misunderstood by humans who want to feel the dog is trying to take over. Usually the dog is simply over boisterous, untrained etc. and the alpha talk is used to "explain" everything from a pushydog to one who pulls on the lead.

JMO though as ever! :)

Lindsay
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Edited to add: whoops, post ended up in wrong place, sorry.

I've just got my first Rottie rescue a 16 wk bitch stray and have had this same behaviour from her even to the point of snapping and holding my hand but with no pressure so she's learn't that much at least.  My answer to this problem was simple I made her sit still with my hand in her mouth as her grip increased when I attempted to remove it, then told her a very firm NO and snapped my mouth shut so she heard a low growling no and a tooth snap in the air ----- she let go.  Having owned and done obedience with GSD's and worked springers I wasn't about to let her get the upper hand but by the same token I wasn't going to show her that violence is the way to go by getting into a physical challenge with a bitch that stands 19 inches at the withers and still has her baby teeth!

In the week we've had her she's learned to stay off the furniture despite the older schips and Pom being allowed up, more for her sake than ours as I do worry about joints with a large breed, to sit and wait for her meal as I own schips, rottie sized bowls weren't in the house on Xmas eve so she had to have seconds in a schippy bowl she soon learned that guarding her bowl mean't no more dinner, she growled I left the empty bowl hanging and walked away without a look or a sound with the rest of her dinner!  If she has something she's not supposed to ie Xmas day new game Xmas crackers went into bin rottie took them out to play so mum swapped them for a toy and 2 mins of play with a thank you when she handed the crackers over.  She has a bed by my computer desk and is now laying down with a chew and some toys amusing herself, the pom is helping by licking the other end of the chew she doesn't even get into a possession fight with him coz he growls and has no fear of her size so she respects this 5lb 6 inch dog.

Also in the short time she's been here she's helped to re educate a 14mth old schip who came to me biting, snapping and snarling at other dogs and very food aggressive, he had to be muzzled with the other dogs he was soo under socialised and scared of his own shadow. It took a mth to get him to walk away from the bed she's now laying on, it was like he'd been taught to sit on his bed and stay he did nothing else, took him out and he would bark and attack other dogs and growled at children if they had food he wanted! I had him castrated as he was bonking the furniture, the cats, his father our legs anything that stood still long enough, then we got Merry who soo wanted to be friends and got bitten for her efforts but within a week of going for short walks with her and then training together he's a totally new character no more food guarding or growling at other dogs loves to play with children and lay on his back for a tummy rub gives his toys when he's told to.  He went to a new home yesterday in North Devon with 2 boys aged 6 & 8 without a second glance on the lead that the 6 yr old had put on him, it was a mad house 8 schips a rottie and a pom plus the family who thoroughly enjoyed their time with us here and commented on what a credit to us the dogs were and could they please take the rottie too? ERRR NO!!!!

Be firm, kind distract and ignore are the tools I use and they work with 99 out of 100 breeds, what's the 100th breed?  Schipperkes lol.

 

Holding down the muzzle or head or neck  on the floor by a senior canine is not the same as totally enclosing the muzzle with the hands & holding it shut. The canine is forcing the junior canine into a submissive position, Holding a dog or puppy by the muzzle whilst the dog is in a non submissive position is not reenforcing the lower status only & may be reacted to as aggression by the dog. This I have had happen to when one of my collies was attacked by an erstwhile friendly lab bitch whose at first friendly greeting & submissive behaviour turned into an attack. She strted by licking his lips & then bit him by taking the muzzle sideways into her mouth & starting to growl & then deliberately closed her mouth & bit him very hard(ended up at the vets)this took seconds & she bit & released almost at once, thios was not a older dog putting a younger one in its place but an aggressive unprovoked attackon a non reactive alpha male by a younger female & afterwards it took me a long time for me to stop him growling at puppies who were showing the lip licking behaviour.

I haven't received any ideas on how to deal with the reject GSD's resistance to having his head & neck handled so I will take it no one has any suggestions on how to stop him

My way of thinking is obviously outdated Lady Dazzle motivation & getting correct behaviour by rewarding the acceptable behaviour & ignoring & isolating(walking away)the bad is obviously old hat & wrong whilst interacting in a physical way to stop unwanted behaviour is correct(ie in this case holding the muzzle shut)is modern & forward thinking. Just for your information I have probably learn more in the last two years about dog behaviour & training than in the previous 30 sum, by listening to motivation trainers one of whom due to having a dog she at first could not handle at all to have him working in B & C in obedience & being quite successful in HTM & having one of the most happy & cuddle loving dogs I have ever seen-she used T Touch something I had never seen & certainly did not believe in at first 8 years ago but after using it after learning the technique I am a great believer in it. So yes I am a backward looking dog trainer who only believes in my own methods, I am at present learning target stick training mathod & looking again at clicker training for some clients(ie dogs that I will have to train)as I have a couple of dogs that they appear appropriate for.