hi,
i am new here and i am from the US.  i cannot believe how insulting you people are.  the citizens of the US do not think that their vets are gods.  there are a lot of opinions regarding spaying and neutering.  i would never group a whole culture together like you people have done.  if you want to spay/neuter your dog, then do it.  if you don't, no one is making you. 

Welcome Elija,

Maybe we can start over. There are bound to be differences in different countries because we're all brought up learning different things from a different background from different histories from different politics, different current events which influence us differently etc. How do you like my writing style. Isn't it good? I think I'll write a different kind of book.

One thing that isn't different: We all love DOGS, DOGS, DOGS.

Tell us about your dog. What are his special abilities and what do you do with him? What does he like? Does he like rabbits? How 'bout cats?

Stick around and maybe things will be different. LOL.

Carrie

well, it is true that we are all different, and that is something we have to accept, and should embrace.  differences are what keep things interesting, however, the sweeping generalizations here should be re-thought.  it just isn't fair to say all people think one way or another. 
but, yes, perhaps in stickiing around, i will find some positives here as well. 
my dog, eli, is a mix of greyhound or whippet and rhodesian ridgeback.  (i think, he was from a shelter, so who knows for sure)
anyhow, he is a great two year old dog who runs at speeds close to 35 mph!!!  he loves nothing more than his tennis ball and he is a great snuggler.  i live in a fantastic place where there is plenty of space for us to run (well, i walk--he runs).  he loves to be free and to chase his ball.  anyhow, i am glad i found him when i did.  i hope he is glad too.
thanks for asking me to stay around here. 

Welcome, elija! I am delighted to read what you say about the US citizen's attitude to vets. It makes a refreshing change from some of the posts from US citizens I have read here in the past. The impression they have given (and we can only believe what people tell us!) is that in many places you are not even allowed to buy a puppy until it has been neutered. No option. I am very glad to hear it isn't true. As we know, there are always two sides to every story, so we need to hear both! Please stay around - we need to hear another point of view!
:)

Stacey said 'There are decades of experience in terms of neutering before the first season (6 mos) versus after the first season.  There have been studies done, which shows the decline in the rate of mammary cancer (to nearly zero) if done before the first season, slightly reduced risk after the first season, and no reduced risk afterwards.'

Can I ask what the chances are of an unspeyed bitch a) actually contracting mammary cancer in the first place and b) dying from it if treated early.......

Digger,

I don't know the chances of an unspayed bitch contracting mammary cancer off the top of my head, but I'm sure if you did a search on the internet you'd find the answer. 

Why do you ask?   Spaying before the first season reduces the risk of contracting breast cancer down to near zero.  I'm not advocating spaying in order to eliminate the risk, whatever the percentage is for unspayed bitches, if that's what your driving at by asking.

Stacey

Digger, from what I've found on the net, the chances of an unspayed bitch developing mammary cancer appears to be about 25%, or one in four. However about 50% of those tumours will be benign, so that gets the risk of malignant tumours down to about 12%, or one in eight. This is, coincidentally, quoted as the likelihood of a woman developing malignant breast cancer. From my point of view, that's a risk I'm prepared to live with (for both me and my dogs), and just carry on doing checks.
:)

Thanks Jeangenie - that's the kind of figure I was expecting, I know for sure I wouldn't put my last five pounds on a horse with odds of 1/8.......

Oh, that is good that Honey will be ok. I know what you mean about Dane's shorter than most life span. Dobes too because they often get bone cancer or dilated cardiomyopathy early. Nine is the average and you're lucky they make it past that. So, if I can cut out the risk of the other cancer, so much the better.

Sorry that we kind of highjacked your thread...going off about horses. It's like getting all us dog people together. We never run out of things to talk about where dogs are concerned. Now you add horse people and there's no telling the amount of rambling that can branch off. LOL.

Glad Honey's OK.

Carrie

"She'll be lucky to live to 8 years"

Hmmm...I disagree! I hate it when folk assume that just because the dog is a Great Dane he will fall off the perch anytime after 6 years old! Its very dependent on how you look after them for one. Limited exercise, good quality food and vit c are essential in the early years, and continue to be essential throughout adult life (increased exercise). There are too many unfit danes around - its no wonder they don't live so long! Willis gets walked every single day without fail and that will continue for the rest of his life. I am hoping I will have him until he is at least ten - because they do seem to be living longer these days.

I have a bitch who is due to be spayed this year at 2...before her second season. It would not be my choice to have a slow developing dog like a dane spayed at 6 months - but then vets don't have a bl**dy clue about Great Danes anyway :)

Chloe,

I agree with you - one shouldn't assume that they'll drop dead any minute after 6yrs but I think that if you decide to have a giant breed dog, then it's only realistic to remember that they do not have the usual dog lifespan of 12+ years. Yes, they are living longer nowadays and I know quite a few Danes who are 10 or 11 years old but I think that everyone will agree that they are the exception rather than the rule. I'm not expecting my dog to die early but at the same time, I'm acknowledging the fact that because of her breed, there is a high chance that she won't live very long beyond 8 years, even with the best food and care in the world. I am feeding her a super-premium food with under 24% protein and she gets two 500mg Vit C tablets a day, plus daily light exercise (short walks at the moment because she is only 6 months). She comes from hip-scored parents and her breeders have been breeding for 30yrs and are very well-known (and affiliated to a well-known English kennel) but still, that does not mean that she is guaranteed to be long-lived. Therefore, my point was that I would not exchange other medical benefits for a benefit that may not happen anyway, given her potential for shorter lifespan. It's like you probably wouldn't worry about Alzheimer's in a Down's Syndrome child as you know that in spite of the best nutrition and care in the world, simply because of their genetics, they probably will not have a normal lifespan and won't get to an age where they have to worry about Alzheimer's (that does not mean, of course, that there aren't any 80yr old Down's adults with Alzheimer's but I'm talking about general trends.) Sure, if my dog lives to be 10+, I'll be delighted, even if it means that I'll have to deal with incontinence.

And I do think it's a bit of a generalisation to say that "vets don't have a bloody clue about Danes" - some of them can be very knowledgeable about giant breeds. I agree that most are very ignorant but that doesn't mean that they all are. And it's not a reason to always put a Dane breeder or enthusiast's word before a vet's. At the end of the day, a Dane is still a dog - albeit a specialised one - and a vet has been trained to look after dogs, so they should be given some credit and not just sworn aside because of dog's specialised nature. One has to see the individual situation and the individual vet.

There seem to be a lot of generalizations going on. Americans think their vets are God? Well, I'm an American and I don't. I've been to vets that I thought were full of sh*# and I quit going. I question everything. I ask about the risks of various procedures. I read and look for information in other places.

Neither my vet nor anyone else ever, ever pushed me to neuter or spay my dogs. He asked if I was going to. I said, "Oh, definitely." Then I asked him about the pros and cons of neutering at 7months vs. 2 yrs. Vets here at any rate go to school for nearly as long as human medical doctors and they tend to be quite knowledgeable about veterinary medicine. No, they're not God.

They are not tending to be breed specific sometimes, to be sure. My vet happens to know about Dobes because he at one time had some. The vet where I use to live bred Dobermans and his vet tech did too, very nice ones at that. At that time I didn't have my Dobe yet. I'm sure there are vets out there that know about Great Danes too.

There are averages regarding life expectancies in various breeds. Of course...no one is saying that there cannot be variations or exceptions to those averages. They say Chihuahuas can live to 15 - 17 yrs, Dobermans average is 9 yrs. Naturally, some live longer and some not so long.

The fact that there is a real problem with over population of dogs and cats in shelters being killed daily, wasted lives, suffering, languishing in concrete cells awaiting a possible home which more often than not never materializes makes the people sad. It sure made my heart heavy with weeping inside when I walked through a shelter one day. Is there any wonder why neutering and spaying is promoted or encouraged? (Not brow beaten) No one expects anyone to fix their animals if they're showing or breeding. Those people tend to be pretty careful with their animals, but the average pet owner has no reason to keep their animals intact, especially if they're not careful, which unfortunately is a sad fact here. I had the idea is was a world wide problem, but could be mistaken.

As it was said, if you want to keep your dogs intact or you want to fix them, it's not THAT big of a deal one way or the other if you don't have that worry about accidental births, lousy breeding practices (which I've seen a lot of, by the looks of things on this board...mostly guests,  and other boards) or about the cancers associated. It is a personal choice indeed.

My choice is to neuter and spay. I don't have less of a dog to love. It isn't their hormones or their privates that I love. It's their personality, their hearts and souls, their minds, their humor, their loyalty and affection, watching what they're capable of atheletically and otherwise. It's not a dog's hormones, "danglies" or uterus that I'm loving. Those things to me don't make or break a dog. There's a whole lot more to them in my view. So when it is said that someone wants an "entire" dog to love, it makes me laugh. I especially liked the post about the danglies and the aerodynamics. LOL!

Carrie

Bravo Bravo to the above poster, carrie.

If any of you want to ask about vet things put Provet in your search bar and all sorts of helpful things come up. I asked one of the vets a question and had a reply within hours. :)

Carrie said <<Vets here at any rate go to school for nearly as long as human medical doctors>> well vets in England Study for nearly twice as long as human doctors and veterinary college is one of the most difficult to get into in the UK ;)

As for neutering I personally wouldnt, only for medical reasons.  I grew up with two un-neutered Afghans who lived until 14 and 15 years old (good ages for Afghans) so being intact didnt effect that!!   My Bichon was neutered due to medical reasons and other dogs treated him like a female which really changed his temperament.

JMHO

Claire :)

edit to say : also neutering wont stop unwanted dogs, responsible owners wont let their dogs stray and therefore wont let them get pregnant.  Irresponsible owners wont neuter their dogs but also wont be bothered if they stray and end up pregnant - in fact some irresponsible owners will encourage it. 

Carrie, that post came right from your heart, and was full of passion for dogs on a whole. Well done.
Claire i agree that unfortunately irresponsible owners don't tend to get their dogs neutered, but if one does then that can save quite a few lives being born. So neutering does need to be promoted.
I don't care if my vet keeps on at me about neutering my dogs, i won't do it unless i want to, they can't force you. But i would rather they keep harping on about it, because it WILL make others do it, and unfortunately it does need to be done.
It would be an ideal world where none of us had to get our dogs neutered, no rescue dogs in kennels, waiting to be put to sleep.
As for vets knowing nothing about Great Danes, you could say that about most uncommon breeds. I've had vets know very little about dachsies, and EVEN less about guinea pigs. To say they do more training that doctors, leads me to think, what do they actually learn?
The best thing to do is find a vet who is willing to learn and LISTEN to you.

You are absolutely right about the vets.

My vets thought they could hip score Willis under sedation - sedate and manipulate a 15 stone dog who is stressed out? He ended up being put out after a long uncomfortable period of being messed around with. I've known vets who tell owners to feed large breed puppy (a no-no) because they sell it. I have known vets who have operated on non existant eye conditions - because they were confused by the deep set eyes. Then there's the "vaacinate every year" and the "worm-mad" and the "spay and castrate everything" brigade of vets. I just wish they wouldn't generalise all dogs when they are different.

Three times i've gone to the vets with my dogs, in the last 5 years, and the dogs have had back problems. They've been misdiagnosed, each time, but I KNEW it was their backs and had to persist.
Most think they know better than you unfortunately. :(

"I've known vets who tell owners to feed large breed puppy (a no-no) because they sell it."
Hi Chloe - why is it a no-no.  I'm interested because having a lab HD is a concern.  When he was a pup I was told to feed Hills large breed puppy.  I didn't question this as my cat has done very well on Hills for many years.  However, I did find that my pup put weight on very quickly and had to cut back to  way below the recommended amount.  Then I found champdogs and after a bit of research decided to change him to burns and also change vets! The second vet also said the best way to ensure health growth and avoid HD was to feed Hills as they had done all the research!
Im interested to hear as I had always believed that large breed puppy food ensured slower growth.

uk vets study twice as long as human doctors????  if i were british, i think i'd be afraid to go to a human doctor!!!  that is absurd!!!  US medical doctors go to school for about 12 years or longer.  do your vets go to school for 24-28 years???!!!!  man, that is a tough one i guess. you must not have many vets there. 

anyhow, our vets in the US don't know everything, of course, they are not god.  just like medical physicians, they make mistakes........they are only people.  they are just better trained than we are.  i am okay admitting that a vet might know more than i do.  they are just like auto mechanics, sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they are wrong.

i am glad your dog did fine without being neutered.  like i said in my first post, if you want to neuter/spay than do it.  if you don't, than don't.  it isn't that big of a deal.

by the way, where did you get your info about irresponsible owners encourage their dogs to procreate?  i think accidents happen even by very caring loving owners.  Accidents happen because dogs are not spayed or neutered.

Oh. i wanted to thank Jeangenie for her warm welcome also.  that was nice of you and makes me think that people like you and carrie are few and far between.  anyhow, this is an interesting board.  in a couple looks i have gained some light on some things.  anyhow, thanks for welcoming me.

Hi Elija,
UK doctors study for 5 years for their basic degree. If they want to go on and specialise (General Practice, surgery etc) then it takes longer. The basic Vet degree course also takes 5 years - likewise there are opportunities to study for further qualifications. Medical school and vet school are the most over-subscribed courses in the country.

Edited to correct the figures! ;)
:)

thanks for the explanation....what do you mean by over-subscribed?  just curious

By 'over-subscribed' I mean that there are about 30 applications for every training place available.
:)

I think you will find that the education system in the uS & UK are completely different

I worked with a girl who had graduated in the US & I have A levels If I had gone to university I would have graduated at 21 she graduated at 18, I would have had a degree at 21 she would have been at college after graduation so the two things mean something totally different

The US students graduate from high school the UK students graduete from college or university

If our doctors are so awful why are so many in the states ?? It takes five years to be a doctor , but students in the UK are not allowed to treat patients unless under strict supervision  & with the patients permission until after they graduate

In the states medical students often carry out treatment when they are doing their practical rotations

You cannot compare totally different systems.

I have an american fourth year medical student studying my medical condition in the states his attending  is er a british doctor  head hunted from the UK for 5 years to set up treatment similar to mine for US patients

I know that the full(including specilizing)course for vets is a lot longer than for doctors in both countries simply because doctors treat one species & vets the rest of the species in the world. Also doctors can usually talk to the patient Vets can but rarely get a reply

Good point Moonmaiden. In the UK people don't 'graduate' from school - they only 'graduate' from University when they have passed their degree course.
:)

Yep the girl I worked with came in at a level above me on the grounds of her graduation however when her educational records came through she was bounced down to the same level as she had no more qualifcations than me(she left when she realized she would not be treated in the UK as a "graduate")

She was just an ordinary 'school-leaver' then?

in the US, people go to university for 4 years.  then they go to medical school for 4 years.  then they are interns for 2 years, then they are residents for 2 years.  that is 12 years total.  as residents, they work under a doctor in a clinic or hospital.  they are not allowed to practice medical procedures unless there is a doctor present and the patient must also agree to have the resident perform proceedures on them first.  anyhow, it is quite a stringent and long process.  as far as vets in the US, im not sure how long it takes.  it may be similar or it may be less schooling, but it is certainly not more.

Ah - over here the university is the medical school, where they study for 5 years.
:)

And remember Elija...that's just for general practice. If they want to be a cardiologist, a radiologist, a neurosurgen or any other speciality....that's an additional 4 years on top of the 12 already.

Carrie

A question for Elija and Carrie (welcome Elija :) )

I watch ER avidly over here in the UK and one thing that has struck me is how much the characters who are medical students are allowed to do, for example Abbie and Neela.  Abbie especially seems to do whatever she pleases and even overules the Interns and Residents and carries on regardless doing what she thinks is best   Surely it can't be the case that medical students are allowed such free reign as portrayed in ER and its just dramatic licence?  I did watch a documentary about a real US Emergency Room and it seemed to me to be a whole lot calmer and better organised than the one in ER :)

Lesley

What you have to remember about programs like ER is that they are fact based but not factual bit like Casaulty in the UK

When my OH was injured in the line of duty in the USA he was critically injured & it was life or death & yes it was a bit like ER in that people seemed to be all over the plase but they were all part of a very well developed team that swings into action when needed. Not being a medical person I didn't have a clue as to what was going on & it did look very dramatic. Fortunately the result was a good one

None of the Doctors were looked like the TV ones, unlike my lovely GP here in the UK ;)

Also in the USA there are nowhere near as many GP's per head of population that there is here in the UK & of course there is no NHS in the States

Yes, the TV doctors are rather dishy, but my GP isn't :(  I think what I was trying to find out from Elija and Carrie (in a round about way and not very clearly!) was whether medical students in the US are allowed more leeway to treat than they are here, but recognising that ER will naturally embellish for effect - I just wondered how much it was embellished :)

Thank goodness your husband's treatment had a good outcome :)  And although we in the UK have a tendency to moan about the NHS and its deficiencies, we are so lucky that we still have it :D

Lesley