Honey got spayed last Thur and came home very groggy. Was relatively quiet on Fri but by Sat, she was back to her old self and with 2-days worth of pent-up energy! Bouncing around all over the place, chasing the kitten, zooming around...now today (Sun), we've noticed that her wound is oozing a bit. Great. :( Don't know if she's torn a stitch or something what with all the jumping around. Husband is a doctor and says that it's quite normal for wounds to ooze and it's OK as long as doesn't get infected and start oozing pus but still rather worrying. I know we're supposed to keep her quiet and we're trying but it's really hard with a 6 month old puppy!! We're supposed to go to Obedience class tomorrow evening but think we'll be going to the vet's instead...and just when she really doesn't need to miss Obedience!

Oh well.... :(

6 months seems a little young to spay....but anyway you should have really kept her quiet.  No bouncing, chasing or zooming for at least a week. Best take her back to the vet. And I think she should have this week off class.
Sally

"6 months seems a little young to spay...."

Yes, I thought there would be criticisms about this! :) I thought that was the norm for most dogs: 6 months? I have read in dog magazines that rescue centres spay puppies as young as 13 weeks with no side-effects but I know it's a controversial subject. We were just keen to get her spayed as soon as possible and the vet said that the earliest was 6 months and that was fine.

And yes, I know we should have tried harder to keep her quiet! :( Anyway, hopefully, things will be fine at the vet's tomorrow and we'll be able to attend Obedience class the following Mon.

Hsin-Yi

I also dont agree with spaying done so young but it's your choice. I would not take her to obedience class at least until her stitches are out. Dogs are very stoic and put up with an awful lot but just think how they would pull if you had had the operation done to you!

Regards, John

Not criticising, just my thoughts.  ;)  I had two of mine spayed before a first season which is a bit contraversial but they were 10 months old. It'll be worth pulling your hair out for a few days and keeping her as quiet as possible or the enforced rest may have to go on longer if she hurts herself.
Sally

Thanks, Sally! I knew you weren't criticising but I meant that I knew I was going to get a lot of flak... :)

Just out of interest, if 6 months is considered early - when do people think is the right time?

Hsin-Yi

Hsin-Yi,  I personally don't consider 6mths too early for spaying and would if I had a choice neuter my own pet homed puppies before they left me their breeder, having done absolutely loads of research on the subject both in person in the US and online, unfortunately it is not an option in this country, despite my vet having worked out in the USA and perfomed the procedures on many young animals.

This behaviour could be a reaction to the GA, my schips are very much the same if they need a GA for anything, I had one bitch who broke her toe and was trying to run round like a loon within 10 mins of waking up - vets rang me up and asked if I wanted her home early lol.  I wouldn't take her to any classes until the wound is closed, healed and of course her stitches are out it's not worth the risk of possibly picking up an infection from the other dogs or a new environment.

My schips had usually settled back down again within 4 days of the GA - that is as much as schips settle!

I guess it must be different there, but 6 months is absolutely the normal and average age to get dogs fixed here in the U.S. For females, if it's done before their first heat, it reduces greatly the chance of mammary cancer.

Also, I wouldn't worry about a little oozing between the sutures as long as it's not excessive and as long as it's clear and as long as the sutures are still in. It's actually good to drain a little as it will reduce the chance of infection. This is what I've picked up being once in the medical field myself.

Yes, it is hard to keep them quiet. But the running and jumping should be watched. It's longer with the females than with the neutering of the males. I remember trying to keep my Chihuahua from leaping up on the couch. She had no problem doing it right after surgery. It was very hard to keep her quiet. So....good luck. Don't worry too much. It will all be fine, I'm sure.

Carrie

6months is also the norm here in the UK.

kat

3 months post-first season is more usual in the UK.

What age would that be then cause our vets have always recommended spaying/neutering before the first season.

kat

Average about nine or ten months, though my two which were spayed young had their ops as a birthday present because they didn't have their first seasons till they were about 9 months old. My vet won't spay before the first season.

kmc what gave you that idea? Let me guess?

<<kmc what gave you that idea? Let me guess? >>

  What do you mean Jackie?

kat

What gave you the idea that it was the normal thing to spay bitches at 6 months in the UK - on what authority do you make that assertion.

I was also wondering about where you got the idea that 6 months was the norm in the UK? It has always been at the earliest half way between the first and second season although I do know that some vets over here are now pushing for spaying earlier rather than later. Yes, it's true that the risk of mammary tumours is greatly reduced if spayed early but that risk is already quite small. With all the bitches I've owned I have only once ever had one suffer from them.

Best wishes, John

When you have a pup spayed without having a season is there more chance of a puppy being more exciteable also exciteable adult my F.I.L had his westie done without being a season

Jean

Does spaying before the first heat make them more excitable? In my opinion, and from everything I've read, absolutely not. If anything is minutely noticeable, the absence of estrogen can make a bitch less moody. I believe in spaying a bitch before their first heat and that's the way I've always done it with the exception of my Lab who went through one heat. She had only one problem which can happen as a result of lack of estrogen, although it doesn't happen to all, but can be treated with estrogen suppliments. And that is urinary incontinence. It happened a few times where she didn't feel anything and some just fell out of her. The estrogen that she went on has a direct effect on strengthening the sphincter muscle in the urethra. Sometimes they have to be on it for a long time. Bonnie was on it for a month and she never had the problem again. It's been a number of years. She's now 13 in a couple months. I'd rather have that than the higher risk of cancer.

Carrie

I would never a neuter a dog of any sex before a year at least preferably two.  Neither bitches nor dogs "mature" in my breed or most large breeds before two, either physically or mentally therefore I prefer to wait. 

Hi all
My vet tryed to push me into getting Buffy spayed now at 5 months. She told me that if i spayed her now there was a slight risk that she become incontenant (sorry about the spelling) and that that was better than an unwanted pregnancy.
I told her that i would spay her after her first season and that there would no possibilty of a dog getting anywhere near her. The vet then told me that Buffy would somehow break out of my house, garden and the school playground (we live in the grounds of a school) to get to a dog and that there was no way i would stop her. So i told her i would still rather an unwanted pregnancy than a dog that wee'ed all over my house for the next 15+ years.
I know that i can keep her away from dogs when the time comes and i have choosen to wait.
I do think that vets tho are now being a bit pushy about when to spay a bitch and really it should still be down to the owner.

Debbie

spey related incontinence can occur no matter what age the bitch is speyed;

Hi,
Just to say I have read all this with great interest as we discussed with our vet when the right time would be. He too advocates spaying before the first season and I think we will go ahead with this - though of course we will leave it as long as possible and it may be she comes into season early in which case we'll have to wait. My lab has so much energy we couldn't not exercise her outside the home, and I couldn't possibly imagine trying to keep her away from all her male friends in the park when she's on heat!

Ali

Hi tohme
In that case we will just have to wait and see what happens. I still wouldn't have her spayed befor eher first season and if she is one of the unlucky ones that end up incontinent then we will just deal with it. I would rather that she wasnt but if she was then we wouldnt love her any the less :)

Debbie

That's right. It doesn't matter at what age you spay a bitch. That incontenance can occur in any case. My Lab was spayed after a heat and developed that problem, although luckily it was short lived.

It's for the health reasons mainly that I go along with spaying and neutering at around 6 months. It's true that the dogs don't mature until around 2 yrs old, larger breeds anyway. (The toys much earlier.)The testosterone in the males is what closes the growth plates, and neutering before they're fully developed will produce a slightly taller, leggier dog in many breeds, Doberman included. However, from what I've learned from breeders and many others who own Dobermans, the difference is nearly inperceptible. You'd have to wait until they're fully developed to reap the benefits of the fully filled out dog. But with that you also have to take the behavior differences which are also sex hormone related. That's how it is with Dobes, and I'm sure to one degree or another with other breeds.

With my Doberman, being a dominant breed, I wanted to eliminate some of those stronger tendencies. So, it just wasn't worth it to me to do it for looks only. He'll be beefy enough. Again, the prostate disorders and cancers are eliminated. That's the biggest thing for me. And it's quite common. Dobes already have enough potential problems as it is. I also didn't want any wandering and accidental breeding to occur. That's very important to me. So, we all have our reasons and preferrences to be sure. I guess the health thing is personal, but the unwanted births and subsequent dogs without homes is everybodies business. So, if one can prevent that by keeping their dogs in, that's great. But I know many people have the best intentions and yet accidents happen as that instinct to breed is extraordinarily strong and the determination in both sexes is iron strong.

I know a neighbor's dog who escaped out their door and as well trained as it was, didn't listen, ran about 5 miles away down the highway to a resort nearby and bred the owner's Golden Retriever, who they weren't very careful of either, so here came the mixed breed pups. Some other neighbors got a couple of the cute little puppies, didn't know how to handle dogs and they became a nuissance. Where did these dogs end up? I saw them in a shelter while going to help my niece adopt a couple of cats. There they were barking and crying in a 4 x 8 concrete cell, too old and out of control to be cute anymore and too young to die. They were begging to be helped and not too likely to get adopted.

Carrie

I absolutely agree with you that if people cannot control their dogs sufficiently to prevent their dogs from mating or are unable to handle an entire male they should certainly get it neutered; however I have never found either to be the case where I was personally concerned thank goodness :)

Well....in case you're referring to my post and my aversion to intact male adult dogs' behavior, I didn't say that I neutered my Doberman because I was UNABLE to handle an entire male. I meant that I would rather not have those behavioral tendencies that are present in intact male dogs.

If I could handle, break and do the finishing training in four year old, highly spirited Arabian horses who came off of a 1700 acre ranch in Wyoming, who had never been broken to ride and in fact hardly handled at all, but let live almost in a wild state, I assure you, I can "HANDLE" an intact male dog. (how's that for a run on sentence? LOL)

Carrie

Oh you have had Arabian Stallions too, excellent that is an experience we share!  What lines, straight egyptian, polish...................?

A lot of Spanish and Polish along with others:

Galero, (I believe Wayne Newton's horse) Chavali,

Faquih, Nagasaki, Nezabudka, Skipper Mac, Roble Sera. Marhaba, Samaria, Sandor (new spelling) Brisa De Lujuria

Raseyn, Babolna, Abuf Addan, Makor, Gamul, Abugam, Rabol

Zancudo, Zalema, Ornis, Paita, Borni, Skowronek, Rayya, Durbar, Bona, Faddan,

Sacudir, Nevisca, Arax, Napersmitsa, The Real McCoy, Farella, Al Nahr Neytar, Ro Sela

Those are some of the lines. Do we share that too at all?

I much prefer for a riding horse a gelding or a mare, (geldings often better) by far to a stallion. It's the same reason I prefer a neutered male dog, although with horses, it's much more extreme. But for a nice saddle horse and pet that can be around the other horses, a gelding or mare.

Carrie

Do you have any of those same lines? What lines do you have? What colors are your horses? How tall are yours? It's interesting about the different countries breeding of them.

I did not have stallions, but mares. I worked with some stallions of a breeder's in the state I lived in, who bought my girls' sire from this same person in Wyoming. She told me about these great animals who were being sold. I got my rear in gear and traveled to Wyoming for them.

Carrie

Spaying at 6mths. is also the norm here in Australia,i have always done this and never had a problem with either males or females.
One thing has got me thinking, which has planted a tiny seed of doubt in my mind.I got my girl Bonnie spayed at 6 1/2 mths.(shih-tzu) and at 10-11 mths. i was waiting for her cottony unmanagable puppy coat to fall out,but it never did!She is now 16mts. old and still has the same coat as she did when she was a pup,she never blew her coat.Could this be a byproduct of spaying her before her first heat??

christine

I would say undoubtedly. Coat changes in longer-haired haired dogs are extremely common after neutering.

Skowronek was an extremely famous polish stallion, and is one of my all time favourites; my arabs were born in the Middle East and so do not share any of these lines.  However I differ from you in that I prefer to ride stallions and would always choose them over geldings and mares.  In the Middle East no horses are "cut" and stallions and mares are ridden out together with no problems.  I have found arab stallions to be much more affectionate and enjoyed my relationship with them very much.

I enjoy their spirit, probably why I enjoy my dog breed so much too :)

Well...that's good that you do.

Yes, I know about the horses in the middle East and how they were smuggled many years ago and how you can only get the ones they don't want to keep. LOL.

Carrie

:D :D :D

The best Arabs you will probably see anywhere are in Jordan and Bahrain.

I went to an Arab Horse Show several years ago in Santa Barbara and I was very impressed with the way they presented the horses over there; I particularly liked the "Avenue of Kings" where all the stallions were boxed and the fact that all the owners were so friendly and got their horses out for you to look at and we all had an ice cream party! :D

Wow, that sounds like a lot of fun....that horse show. They are truly the most beautiful breed IMO.  (probably yours too) Are you from the states or did you travel to Santa Barbara all the way from England?

Yes, apparently Arax was a famous Russian bred horse and I think I read somewhere about some of the others...Galero I understand was a great. Sandor, my girls' (they were 1/2 sisters) sire was imported from Spain and passed around for breeding to so many places. The breeder I worked for who bought him said she thought he had been mistreated because he was so neurotic. He had injured his head rearing and hitting a header in a barn and from then on had occasional siezures. He had been a lovely animal at one time. He was older but she wanted some babies out of him. I saw pictures of him when he was younger and he was gorgeous. My girls were double Galero granddaughters. So, some pretty close breeding in there at that level. But they were lovely and sweet. I really miss them since I moved a couple of years ago and needed to sell them.

I forget what breed of dog (s) you have. It's funny how we all have our favorites. I have lots and lots of favorites. LOL.

Carrie

I am British, I was in the US on a holiday and just happened to be there when this show was on; lucky me!

Hi Jackie, 6 months is what most vets suggest up and down the country. However, individual opinions vary, some prefer a little older and some younger. As the dogs owner it is entirely up to yourself when you choose to spay/neuter but 6 months has been the average for years.

kat

Most! really

Sorry Kat - I disagree. And unless a person has visited every vet up and down the country I don't think that person should make such sweeping statements :)

Whoah! I didn't mean to start up a heated debate on spaying times!! I know it's a controversial subject - personally, the objections regarding them not reaching full maturity (which might have cosmetic negatives) are less important than the safety benefits of significantly reduced mammary tumours in spaying before first season. I know there is the incontinence risk but you can get this too if you spay late. And I have been following the debate/research into the pros & cons of spaying early and I know there is good evidence which shows that early spaying has no significant side-effects. But as someone else said, it comes down to personal choice in the end - I know Danes don't come into season till later than 6 months (probably around 9/10 months) but I didn't want to risk an early season (which does happen from what I hear from other Dane people) and I also don't want to deal with any hormones floating around beforehand. Basically, I want to bypass my dog entering puberty and if that means that she'll be taller or shorter or whatever - or that she MIGHT be incontinent in later life (in Danes, she might not even reach "later life" - she'll be lucky to live to 8 yrs) - then I'm willing to take that risk.

Anyway! Just wanted to report that we took Honey to the vet this evening and he thinks the wound looks a little red and inflammed and it was still oozing a bit (pale pink fluid) so he has given her some anti-biotics to prevent any infection and also a topical cream with anti-biotics/steroids/antiseptic in it to reduce the swelling a bit, so the stitches aren't so tight. He thinks she'll be fine after a few days, although she might have to wait a few days longer to have her stitches out (until everything is clean and dry) but he saw no reason why she couldn't go to her Obedience class as usual next Monday. We are trying our best to keep her quiet.

Thanks again everyone,
Hsin-Yi

Excellent please to hear honey is ok. 
My vet tried to get me to have Mr B done at 6 months because he has undecended testicle.  But I refussed,  personal reasons. But now he is 1yr old his other owner is getting him sorted on the 24 May.
We all make decissions and choices which have there own merritt and reasons.
Good luck with Honey
take care
Emma

Hi again Hsin-yi,

Glad to hear that Honey is ok.

I was always led to believe that the reason that most bitches should be spayed midway between seasons was because the hormones were at their lowest levels, therefore the lining of the womb was less likely to bleed profusely (sorry if anyone's eating their tea!) when it was removed. If you spay before a first season, then you don't actually know how far into the cycle she is, therefore you could spay only a few days before she came into heat, when the lining is at its thickest.

This could be an old fashioned way of looking at it, but after all the reading up I've done, it still seems to be the simplest way of explaining it, without going into loads of details about individual hormone levels.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has their bitch spayed earlier is not a very responsible owner, but we all have to make choices for our dogs based on what we have been told/found out.  Its a shame that someone unbiased has not written a definitive article on the pro's and con's of early spaying versus late spaying.
(Or maybe thaey have and I've just not found it:) )

Ali :)

"I was always led to believe that the reason that most bitches should be spayed midway between seasons was because the hormones were at their lowest levels, therefore the lining of the womb was less likely to bleed profusely (sorry if anyone's eating their tea!) when it was removed. If you spay before a first season, then you don't actually know how far into the cycle she is, therefore you could spay only a few days before she came into heat, when the lining is at its thickest."

That's a good point, Ali! But I think in the case of giant breeds, at least, because they come into season so much later (9months +), there is very little chance that they could be in a cycle in the first place, if you do it at 6 months. It's like it's just so far in advance- they haven't even reached puberty yet (bit like doing a hysterctomy on a 5 yr old: there is no way they could be close to having their period or ovulating). I think it might be different for smaller breeds, though.

I agree with you, I think it would be good to have an "unbiased" (as possible!) article with the pros and cons.
Hsin-Yi

<<(bit like doing a hysterctomy on a 5 yr old: there is no way they could be close to having their period or ovulating). >>

Without wishing to cause upset, I think that is exactly the reason so many vets won't consider doing it at that age. If it was done to a child, she would need longterm medication to develop into a normal adult. There is a biological reason for puberty, and as you say, there has been no unbiased studies on the effects of removing an important part of the anatomy.

Jeangenie,

There are decades of experience in terms of neutering before the first season (6 mos) versus after the first season.  There have been studies done, which shows the decline in the rate of mammary cancer (to nearly zero) if done before the first season, slightly reduced risk after the first season, and no reduced risk afterwards. I am sure the same type of information is available to vets with regard to other possible outcomes, such as incontinence and other more cosmetic problems from early spay or neuter. There haven't been large scale studies to my knowledge of very early spay, as is often being done in shelter situations in the U.S. now.  

Spay before the first season in the U.S. is the norm because of the huge overpopulation of unwanted puppies and adult dogs.  My vet here in the U.K. refused to spay before the first season.   No vet in the U.S. would ever take that position.   All the health benefits of early stay are used to convince pet owners that they are doing the right thing - I never had a vet in the U.S. mention any of the negatives, ever.  And the assumption is that if you own a pet you cannot control your bitch in season or your intact dog.  If you show dogs - and in the U.S. you cannot show a neutered or spayed dog -- the vets leave you alone with regard to spay/neuter, because they know you are not going to do it.

Stacey

"And the assumption is that if you own a pet you cannot control your bitch in season or your intact dog"

One has to be grateful I suppose that not all vets, and certainly not those in the UK, are of the same opinion!

 

<<I never had a vet in the U.S. mention any of the negatives, ever.  And the assumption is that if you own a pet you cannot control your bitch in season or your intact dog. >>

Good grief! How patronising is that? I'm surprised that US vets aren't 'decked' on a routine basis!

Probably because the vets in the US are thought of as Gods by the majority of pet owners JG

Nah. The majority of vets "think" they are gods, their clients often do not share the opinion .. at least not those who have owned lots of dogs for many years. 

Well, there was one vet in a practice I used.  He was about 6 feet tall, dark wavy hair, trim, lovely soft smile, gentle manner with dogs .. now .. HE was pretty darn close!    ;-)

Stacey

What I mean by an unbiased report is an honest one that lists all the advantages and disadvantages of neutering of both sexes and and at the various ages. All the writers seem to have a particular axe to grind, and none give all the facts to enable a reasonably intelligent person to make a balanced judgement. For example, there are the sites that assure you that castration eliminates the risk of prostate cancer, yet others that point out that more cases of prostate cancer are found in castrated dogs than intact ones. They can't both be right! Then you have to start thinking laterally - why is canine testosterone replacement even made and licenced if a lack of testosterone doesn't sometimes have serious side-effects? ;) Likewise spaying. There have been studies that show that early spaying in late-maturing breeds can lead to under-development of the vulva, causing the bitch, when adult, to suffer painful urine scald. Yet this is often conveniently 'forgotten' when the advantages are quoted. If only there were reports and sites that put both sides of the story (apart from this one, of course! ;) )