PS I'm almost wanting to call the whole thing off and not go, now. But I know if I do that and get a result tomorrow on these bloods that suggests we might have been in time, I will be so peed off.

I think you should just go for it.

Years ago people just took the girl when they thought the days were right and hoped for the best. I know you have already invested a lot of money in this venture with the testing, taking time off, stud fee, booking travel and accommodation so you might as well take the plunge and await the outcome.

If she isn't receptive, you could always come back and try again next time. Still feeling hopeful for you

Yes, we're going! I just wish she was still as swollen. Blood flow much reduced but still occasional red blood and quite yellow/straw-ish (but has been like that a good few days now!). I mean, it's still big but it started out ginormous & red and now it's no longer red at all and has gone down some. Is this ok?! I thought I read somewhere that it does go down just before the right time - or does this mean it's over, or does this vary from one to another?

(She is now doing pelvic thrusting onto a blanket next to me...!)

Anyway, we're going whatever, it would just be good to feel more confident this is the right time...

I think your colour change pads must be very similar to the diabetes TesTape that I mentioned in an earlier post. Some breeder's used this around the 80's. It showed a colour change reaction to the presence of glucose in the vaginal secretion. There are still mentions of it on Google, but it seems to be obsolete now. Older breeders only had the bitch herself to base their timing on, and this relaxation of the vulva, combined with a definite level of desire, sounds just about to me. I wish you a successful mating.

I think you'll be OK tomorrow.  I remember noticing that Nimue's swelling had gone down, and this was just before Robin became really interested in her.  Now - lo and behold - she is about to have 5 puppies (yes, I'm getting nervous...).

After having kept up with what you have been going through, I know I will NEVER do that kind of testing.  I do know now, for instance, that Lulu ovulates early (at around 10 days).  You can, I've read (true or false?), count back 63 days from the date of birth of the litter and you know when the ovulation took place.  I believe I read this in The Book of the Bitch.  Lulu has had 3 litters, and once Robin (my male) mated her on day 6, and I whisked her off immediately after that surprise to stay with other people right away (as had been planned ahead), thinking that she probably wouldn't get pregnant from just that one really WAAAY too early mating, and, well, she had 4 puppies.  Felicia seems ready only about day 14, as indeed have been almost all of my females over the years.
So, if you don't have a male at home (I certainly didn't used to), just get your female to your chosen stud starting on the earliest day you think might be indicated and see what happens.  If the stud lives far away, as is your present situation, then plan on spending some days there.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think I know better!  I don't.  But allow me to say that I do believe this testing is better avoided.  You have suffered so much, and your female to a certain extent as well, and I just bet it isn't really worth it.  I know some here won't agree, and that's fine.  But next time, I'd try it without, if I were you.

I bet it's going to be successful!  Just go for it now!   There's nothing more you can do!

Thanks Nimue. I do totally get where you're coming from and I really won't put her (or another dog) through this again.

But it's not as easy as just going to the stud and planning to be there some time - we're coming for 5-6 days this time as it is, and are still worried we've got it wrong.

I wish we had what we needed locally, but we just don't...

Anyway, it's a lovely day to be crossing the channel so we should have a calm crossing! Think of us at 10am tomorrow (Tues!).

Hi. I am an ex animal nurse, I did say last week I would have tested Friday just to be on the safe side. Progesterone testing is a reliable method, though my girls have had blood removed from their leg, I sincerely hope you haven't missed her. I recently tested a bitch who didn't ovulate until day 17. Her swelling had subsided also, it is a very stressful time, if they were mongrels that roamed the streets then it would have happened!!!! I do not have any faith in the ovulation pads.
Good luck hope the result was s favourable for you.

Thanks all. Well one of my other (female) dogs was just sniffing her face and she stood still and flagged her tail and twitched her vulva up - I've been watching for this (because I've read about it) but haven't seen it until now. So fingers crossed we're ok!

Jenxi if we'd tested Friday and got result Sat at 4pm, we couldn't have left that night as we couldn't pack the car and take the other dogs to my folks in an hour and a half.  We could have left on Sunday night but that would only have got us there 24hrs sooner than we're getting there now, and the boat was 2hrs longer on Sun night (7.30pm-6.30am). So for the sake of 24hrs, we tested Monday to leave with the most up to date bloods...

It sounds like the timing may just about be right for you...fingers crossed.

Good luck......

A reduction in swelling is a good sign that indicates close to ovulation or just ovulated - when they are very swollen they are definitely too soon.
Ovulation pads and ferning are a complete waste of time so don't assess anything off them. With your last blood result it would be very very unlikely that she was already too late

Good luck

Never had any issues with getting blood draws - it isn't difficult. Believe me hitting a poorly babies vein is far harder than hitting a lovely big vein on a dogs neck !
Would be very unimpressed by my vet if he stuffed up like you describe

Fingers crossed all goes well for you.

> Is her swelling going down an indication we've gone over?

No, the swelling needs to go down a very swollen vulva will make mating difficult it should become soft when they are ready for mating.

Thanks guys. We've got to our accommodation & are all having a nap before we head over! It's just 5 mins away.

The veins were totally invisible on her neck - I was watching whilst it was happening.

Oh well, hopefully that's another thing to be thought about next time because fingers crossed the time is right now!

PS I am now not at all nervous because I'm too exhausted after zero sleep on the ferry & the trauma of yesterday's blood draw!

Lots of luck rabid, hope it all goes to plan today and there is a good long tie

I got ferning on mine at 8 days in, vet on day 7 said ovulation imminent on day 7, so fitted with ferning, then premate done agin day 8,9,10 and all said the same and ferning was disappearing, I spoke to a breeder who stated if the vet wasn't experienced with the premate and 2-3 vets performed it they'll probably interpretated results wrong, day 8 & 9 she was showing all signs of excepting, I took her on day 10 and got a tie within minutes with an inexperienced stud, she then came out of heat on day 17 I think I missed 4 days at the beginning,
I got full ferning under a children's microscope and I'd say it was spot on.

Very successful mating with extremely eager girl and a tie lasting about 20 min   (Is that ok?)

I was so glad we had such an experienced stud dog handler who knew exactly what was happening and how to run things. The stud had a couple of goes and slipped out because she wasn't holding him -  but the stud owner knew he hadn't ejaculated & it was third time lucky...

She was a bit vocal at the start of the tie but she relaxed as it went on.

Very happy!!! Now to wait for Idexx results this afternoon!!!!

Congratulations. Will keep fingers crossed for another good tie and a good night's rest for you all :)

Excellent well done.

Woo hoo the best news ... Now relax, have a drink before round two

Super!!!  I was thinking of you (I really was!), and that's of course why it worked!  I bet you feel just great!!!! 

Arg guys, disaster.... And advice needed!

Had a call from Larry at Idexx (who vet consented to give us result from) with the news that her progesterone result yesterday was only 4.9nmol.

So she's still a way off, as ovulation is 17-18nmol and then eggs need 2-3 days to mature. So she clearly is just a floozy.

He's advised to retest Thursday and says that would be v safe as there's no way she could rise that fast....

But we are not sure we want to blood test again after the last time....

Our stud dog owner is recommending a great cytology person she uses who has only had 2 misses in 26 litters. Results immediately.

Or we could just breed as late as we currently have planned (Sat AM at 8am) and hope that covers her for 5 days after that.

There is a limit to how long we can hang out here - Arg.

Hurrah !!!!!
posted this before your last comment

Or we could just breed as late as we currently have planned (Sat AM at 8am) and hope that covers her for 5 days after that.

Oh dear.  But you know, this (excerpt here above) is exactly what so many of us do (just try to hit it right) and what "they" did back in the "bad old days".  I cannot quite understand what the problem is, since the tie took place and both dogs were happy about it.  This would be enough for me and indicate that the timing was right!  And indeed, in my experience (46 litters) has always worked.  I have heard and read everywhere that dogs "usually DO get pregnant"!  So it can't be all THAT difficult....maybe?  These tests would drive me bonkers, but I have next to no experience with them, so maybe they do work better than I think they do.

I'm not the right one to give you anything but the most simple advice, so maybe better to listen to others. 

At any rate, sending you all good wishes!

Thanks Nimue. If we don't do further tests, then we would breed Sat at 8am (as the mating today has us covered till then anyway) and that would take us to Day 21 - possibly to Day 23 if sperm live 7 days.

Any advice on how to play this is much appreciated!

One good tie, try again tomorrow and then belt and braces Saturday am.

Stressful time but maybe try and chill a bit, easier said than done.

No more tests, just enjoy.

We only get 2 matings - that's quite common for this breed - so we can't do another tomorrow & also Saturday...and as sperm lives for 5 days, we're kinda covered from now to Saturday, no?

I can definitely chill for a few days now, cos nothing's happening!!

In that case yes just Saturday. No point in any more testing unless you want to change your ferry plans.

Might even be tempted to try Friday instead of Saturday, you might be stressed if clock watching, rushing for ferries etc...

Well, after 2x blood tests, 1x herpes, a weeks accommodation and a £350 ferry, plus £500 stud fee, not to mention blanking out a week in our diaries, we really don't want a miss. There is a free return - but it's not really, when you factor in all those other aspects.

So much as it would really suck to be here into next week, we may have to do just that.... I'm thinking we should do the cytology on Friday and take it from there.

Don't panic ... You have a strumpit and this is why testing is so important.
So blood test Monday was just under LH surge - so reasonable estimate is ovulation late Wed / Thursday so mating late Fri / Sat would be my choice if only have one more attempt.
Personally would run a progesterone as far more accurate than cytology - IME cytology can reduce need for early blood test and then test when getting close
As discussed before I had to set off to Germany at LH surge - my reading was a bit higher but we worked on 2 days to ovulate plus 2 and got a litter so even if you don't want to test a Fri pm or Sat mating would be my call xx

I'd go for Thursdaya dn Saturday, to have optimum sperm copverage over the whole time rather tha dyig sperm inbetween.

And some experienced males will amte a bith early if she will stand.

My current litter now two weeks old the 8 year old male
mated her Friday,
wasn't interested Saturday
mated her Sunday
wasn't interested Monday
was WILD for her Tueday
mated her Wenesday
mated her Thursday

She whelped day 61 from the Tuesday mating, which would tie in with her ovulating Sunday, and his eagerness n Tuesday was when the eggs were ripe.

I predicted whelping based on the matings as Sunday and that is what we got.

Sadly the stud owner will only allow two matings Brainless other wise that would have been best idea

Yup was just about to say that, we only get one more pop!

In a way, everyone could be right here - the dogs today and the stud owner, in thinking today was good - because if she is at the LH surge now, then will hopefully ovulate Thurs and eggs will be ripe Sat... and sperm will be 4 days old then, so could still be viable. 

But yes, good to repeat later now, just not sure if Fri at 2pm or Sat at 8am would be better??  Stud owner wants Thursday and says she is sure she won't stand come Saturday(!) but I don't think the results support that...

PS Are we not covered till Saturday by today, what's this about dying sperm(!)?

Worst case scenario is that  semen has poor longevity but again on average your just fine. Pour another glass

The stud owner is saying she won't still be standing by Saturday and wants to stand now, so we should mate again Thursday. Arg. I think I'm going to hold out for Friday at least.

Cant you get the cytology done tomorrow and then make a decision? Because if she doesn't stand Friday or Saturday then you've missed that opportunity

If she was mated yesterday then she's covered for the next 3-5 days by that, though...

I can't understand why with you travelling so far they won't allow a third mating, what's the issue for goodness sake, surely they want their dog to get visiting bitches pregnant so should maximise the chances.

If you mate again Thursday and she allowed you to come again on Saturday an she was over then that would be a very good sign that timing was right.

We can't do anything about just having 2 matings - often there is only one allowed, so we are actually lucky... although personally, I see your point.

Is it possible that she can be over by Saturday though?  I mean, Idexx advised retesting Thursday, which would mean getting results Friday at 4pm - so even if the Idexx result said 'mate now', we couldn't do it any sooner than Saturday!!

Am I working this out right:

Another way of looking at it:  If she was (almost) at LH surge on Monday at 4.9nmol, then at the fastest, ovulation would be Weds/Thurs and eggs available Friday/Saturday/Sun.  (So Sat should still be ok, even at the fastest?)

And then working backwards and considering the first mating:  If Saturday is too late, then eggs would need to be available Thurs/Fri (and dead by Sat).  But if eggs are available Thurs/Fri, we should be covered by the mating on Tuesday, with that?  That's only 2 and 3 days after a good mating with 20 min tie...?

So any way I look at it, Saturday seems to be the day to go for?

Aah but you had a good tie yesterday so as the stud owner said you might not get one on Saturday. So maybe tomorrow is the day for you, 48 hours after the first one.

You'd be pretty cheesed off if all the new fangled technology said Saturday and you couldn't get a good tie.

Maybe we should just split the difference and go Friday

Are they both in their prime and proven ?

Have you tried throwing money at the problem, might not be the done thing but offer the stud owner half a stud fee for an extra service on Saturday.

I'm not paying her another £250

Stud is 4yo and very proven, around 10 litters registered.  Bitch is a maiden and 2yo.

Fingers crossed the great cytology person you are seeing tomorrow will have good news and you can mate tomorrow and come home Saturday.

We're not totally sure if we should do the cytology, but I am getting the details of the person from her and we'll take it from there. 

We're not going to mate tomorrow (Thurs), we've decided to leave it to either Fri at 2pm or Sat at 8am.  (Stud dog's availability.)  Sat at 8am would mean we have an hour for the mating, then would have a 2.5hr drive to the ferry and a 4.5 ferry back, all on the same day.  It would be less of a rush to do it Friday at 2pm, but I'm torn by wanting to do it as late as possible. 

Maybe we will do cytology Fri morning and decide...

The dogs sperm can live up to 2/3 weeks as proved by one of my fellas mating with a bitch of mine not in season couldn't believe it at the time.
She did come into season about 2 weeks later and did actually go on to have 3 pups.
Hopefully your matings work out for you.

I really, really hope this works out for you Rabid! I've got everything crossed for you.

to Jogold:

Really?  That must have been the most amazing breeding news of the century!  I bet there are a lot of repro-vets and breeders out there who would love to know this!  Did you tell any of them and get their feedback or input?

I don't think a bitch not in season would let a dog mate her(!) - instead it's probable she was having a silent/blind season

Ditto.