*  Can some people who are experienced and successful with ferning, please advise on my ferning results?

Here they are:  https://upload.vstanced.com/joziel 

Are we looking at a mating 4 days from now, if using ferning?  How does the ferning image compare with those which are more like roadmaps?  I mean, how far away do you think we are? 

*  I've also included the 2 ovulation pad results we've had.  I emailed the woman who sells them (as she offers to interpret them too) and she said it was a negative.  I don't know why, since it looks to have changed colour to me... She didn't give more info. 

*  We had a progesterone test at the vet's today (Day 5!!! ) but I won't get the results back until probably Thursday, but possibly tomorrow (Weds).  On the way to the vets I nearly turned back because it seemed insane to be testing Day 5, but when I got home and saw the ferning result I'd taken earlier, I was very glad I went.

We currently have our boat booked for arriving Tues next week (a week today) and I just think that is going to be too late... Our travel and accommodation is totally changeable and flexible (subject to availability), so my proposal is:  Wait for progesterone results.  Assuming they say to travel, go Thurs night, for a 1st mating Fri. (Day 8)  Repeat 48 hrs later.  (Day 10).    Or I could spread it out more and go Day 11 for the second one.  I've found some great cheap accommodation so don't mind doing that.

Other relevant info:  Bitch has short cycles of 4.5mnths.  There was no warning of this season, no swelling beforehand (unlike previously), it hit us fast and it seems to be progressing v fast.  We are seeing a lot of humping of blankets and puffy bits ATM.

I can't tell you from the ferning but the pad is most likely negative. My positive results came when the pad turned purple in the middle and not around the edges. Also, the pad changed almost immediately, ready for interpretation. I had the same result as you for my 2nd girl and it kept coming up as false positive.

In conclusion, the pads worked for one girl but not the other.

On another note (sorry for jumping on your post rabid - but it seems relevant to add it here)...Can anyone tell me whether the pads are the same as good old litmus paper from the school science lab? Or are they the same as the ketone sticks used for diabetic urine tests? I'm thinking of conducting a science experiment using the ovu pads, either of the aforementioned items and ferning. I have access to the school microscopes, litmus papar and ketone sticks and can conduct a fair test - just need to understand how ferning works (have looked online but am non the wiser) and which of the other two test papers the ovu pads are the same or most similar to.

Rumour is they are the diabetic urine tests. 

But - with the ovulation pad results - her examples say that any change of colour, even around the edges, is a positive??  It did change immediately - I took the photo within 1min because I know that the longer you leave them, the more they change...

We don't have 'not enough juice' problems now - quite the opposite.  (On the first one, there wasn't enough juice but even so there was some purply stuff round the edge.) 

Frankly not that impressed with the typoed and photocopied instructions and that she has one length of time to wait on them and another in her video demo(!).  I would so like these to be reliable but I think ferning probably is more reliable...

Those were my thoughts exactly.

She seems to have a lot of success and going by her fb page, stint on BTG and CDM, I think she enjoys the publicity side of things more. My email responses were very brief and non explanatory. Any interpretations were my own from my own observations. I mentioned she was a little dry and got the 'not juicy enough' response.

Hence why I am thinking of having a go myself. As soon as the ovu pads are confirmed as being the same as ketone sticks, I will put in a request at the school lab. I think the questions
here regarding the pads/ferning etc have been asked before so I would dearly love to be able to try and answer some of them :)

I had the purply edging but she said that could just be the air or 'other outside factors' effecting the results. Needless to say, My bitch was very, very reluctant and I can understand that going by how sharp the edges are! The other girl is what I can only describe as  a ladette and can't wait to show off her bits so was very happy to let me fiddle with her back end. Not sure if that needed to be taken in to consideration.

Ok, adding to the above, we have flagging too...

It is kinda torture, sitting here waiting for progesterone results which may not arrive until Thursday, and then the earliest we could go would be Thurs night for a Friday mating - with a bitch which is ferning and flagging and humping and all the rest of it

I am hoping, looking at the ferning, that she is not quite ovulating yet(?) because the ferning isn't dense enough.  If that's the case, and eggs mature for 2 days and then live for a further 2 (poss 3) days, then we should still be just about ok with a mating on Friday...even if ovulating today?

Having looked at pictures online, I think you may be right. There are only 2/3 fronds on the picture you posted and the one I have looked at online is far more dense. There may still be time.

Like I said, my girl has been flagging since day 2! My boy is telling her off now and choosing to rest away from the girls or at my feet so that I can send her to her bed or to play. I think the flagging can't be 100% reliant either. One of my other girls will flag my husband when I'm 'in season' - she thinks its her every month!

I think we are coming to  a 'dad's army' moment where we will all be telling you 'don't panic! don't panic!' and send you virtual shaking of shoulders messages.....relax! The more you fret, the more she'll pick up on it and then....realistically speaking, even if the progesterone tests say mate now! you have a contingency plan in place and have covered all of your basis....just breathe and leave it to the powers that be.

It is known as the law of SOD....we plan and plan and nothing but jo public leave a jack russell and an irish setter together for 20 minutes and have 12 pups...whatever will be, will be babe  :)

Today (Day 6), I got some air bubbles in the saliva sample - which they suggest you try to avoid.  This does seem to happen using the pipette, because it aerates the saliva. 

I still think there is a small patch of dense ferning around the air bubbles though:  https://upload.vstanced.com/joziel

So you are leaving tomorrow night?  Puh-leeze let us know as soon as a mating has taken place.  And:  Best of Luck!  I know how one obsesses about matings.  I certainly did last time, in February, when it looked like it wasn't going to happen despite all efforts on the part of both. (I STILL haven't learned to trust the aim and technical prowess of my male...)  It was Nimue's first time, and now, lo and behold, in about 8 or 10 days, there are 5 puppies on the way.

Nope, not leaving tomorrow night - got the progesterone test result back (see other thread!) and she's only at 1.1.  So no where near.  We are scheduled to leave overnight Monday for 1st mating Tuesday, but I'm not sure if even this will be ok, or if we should delay a day further to get another test in before we leave... arg.  bloody difficult, this

Don't forget about that "window" we all have of the sperm and the eggs being viable for a fairly long time after mating.  You don't have to hit it absolutely on the mark.  There is some leeway.  I know you know this.  But it is sort of comforting to remind yourself now and then of it.

Thanks! Yes, I guess I torture myself by wondering what if stress delays ovulation- and we're staying away from home & going on the ferry. That makes we want an "ovulation happened" result but I think to wait here for that before travel, would be cutting it too fine.

I am so looking forward to all this being over and 2 months without stress before puppies arrive!!!

We do tend to torture ourselves.  I'm getting ready for the "torture" or - hopefully - huge exciting pleasure of a birth next week sometime.  How many times during a birth do we say:  "I'll NEVER do this again!  Why do I do this to myself?  I don't HAVE to do this!"  And then, those of us who have that special thing inside us which cannot resist another litter, we continue, eager to see what will come out of the next mating!  A little like addiction to gambling.  If puppy-buyers had even an inkling of what breeders go through to produce the puppies whose existence and availability these customers basically take for granted, they would understand far more why a carefully-bred and lovingly-raised puppy costs so much!  And of course, that sale price does not begin to pay for the really important things such as knowledge, experience, dedication, love and just plain hard work.  Loads of luck to you with this mating, and I'll be waiting for the good news.

2 months without stress, you'll be lucky!  Is she pregnant? Isn't she pregnant? Will she reabsorb?  Will she deliver ok? Are these prospective new owners good enough for my babies?  Do I have everything ready that I need?  Is she eating enough?  Is she growing well enough? When to worm?  Herpes vaccine or not?  Just you wait lol.

Arrrggg, stop Goldenmum

I am already thinking 'what if some pesticide has been sprayed on this field?' 'what if she picks up giardia or something and can't have antibiotics because she's pregnant?'.... ARGGGG.

Looks like we've beaten you to it Rabid. Booked my girl for a swab as soon as I saw her 1st spots of blood. The lady from breeder scan arrived today (day 9) and said we need to go tonight as ovulation had already started and then try again in 48 hrs and we may get a 2nd tie in if we are lucky. Looks like she is an early ovulator and this might be why we have kept missing. She started to smell 'ripe' last night so this ties in to the swab results. I have called the vet to get the CH vaccine in for a week's time. Thankfully the stud dog owner had been informed so we will be travelling down tonight and keeping everything physically possible crossed! Will keep you posted.

Oh wow, best of luck!! I'm freaking we're too late now!!

What is breeder scan? Is that vaginal cytology? Any info gratefully received as my stud owner says she has someone I can see for that if I need do. I'm a bit nervous about what it involves and if it's stress for the dog?!

I am so glad you are posting on here Rabib, you seem to be going through all the same worries I have been going through, after reading your earlier posts about prog tests and the replies I decided not to and to visit the stud on days 12, 14 and 16 - this was two weeks since last mating. Reading your later posts I now regret not doing the tests - have I missed the day, I wish I knew the exact whelp day; why have I done this. My anxiety levels are sky high much as Goldenmum says; I'm worrying about exercise; her meeting other dogs; her eating/not eating; if the puppies will be ok; where best to put whelping pen and 101 other things - maybe the worry free period will begin when and if we get a healthy litter, however I expect there will be new worries then.

Glad my stress is helping others!!!

At least you got good matings at the most important times - I'm sure you'll be fine. I keep thinking it's looking like mine will be average days & then I'll regret testing & think I wasted money!!

1st herpes jab tomorrow morning...

Breeder Scan is (I think) an umbrella company for qualified scanners. There should be someone local to you if you google them or look on facebook. My lady came recommended by a friend of mine who had a litter of dachshunds and she had predicted numbers spot on. Sadly, the first time she scanned my girl - she was empty but I like her instantly and stopped going to someone else.

My lady does male fertility checks by taking a sample and then putting under the microscope and vaginal cytology (swabbing) too. The microscope is connected to her laptop and you can see what she is seeing. To swab my girl, all she did was lift the tail and gently insert a longer ended version of an ear bud in to her vagina. It was only in for a few seconds and when it was wet enough, she smeared it onto a slide and added blue dye to aid viewing. Nothing upsetting for the bitch and over in seconds. Total cost with her coming out to me was £35, a cup of tea and a slice of cake.

Don't get me wrong, if my vet was more knowledgeable I'd try idexx again but I am happier not taking my in season girl to the practice where she might pick up goodness knows what, have a shaved patch on her, stressed out if we need to do multiple visits and starting to hate the vet.

This lady understands and was happy to discuss my concerns etc as she has bred Mastiffs herself in the past. Hope that lays your worries to rest with regards to cytology :)

P.s, after some faffing about we finally got a 28 minute tie and are going back on saturday. Weather was shocking and we didn't get back until well after midnight but will be well worth it if she takes this time - fingers crossed xx

Oh excellent, well done! How long were you trying for before success? I'm very jealous :)

The swabbing doesn't sound too bad in that case. If we get stuck or are confused once we've travelled there, I'd try it then. My dog is already getting ovulation pads stuck up there daily whilst the other one of us feeds her constant treats so she's getting used to the routine now - and they have to stay up there 30 seconds(!).

I have a really cooperative vet who comes out to our car to do the progesterone tests - in the middle of a busy car park(!). Herpes jabs, too. :)

well the girl we kept from her last litter will be 4 in May so we have failed to conceive ever since. Her original owner bred her just after her 1st birthday, on her 3rd heat, which would ring alarm bells for me but they didn't think anything of it as they were old school and felt a dog was mature enough b the 3rd heat. Thankfully they have retired now and she is none the worse for her early pregnancy.

Don't be jealous as there is no guarantee yet that we have been successful. :)

This girl hated the ovulation pads being pushed up her back end on a daily basis and would spend ages afterwards trying to clean herself and rearrange her hairdo

Lets hope she cooperates and we get a good tie at the stud's on saturday and aren't too late - although she has been trying to flirt with my boy through glass doors and windows all morning!

keeping my fingers crossed for you

I reckon you're bang on the money...

I am getting worried we will be too late... Not based on anything whatsoever other than anxiety!!  Occasionally wish we'd tested this morning, for result tomorrow (Sat) at 4pm, but we'd have had literally one hour before the boat goes on Sat - so we couldn't have left Saturday anyway, and Sunday the overnight boat doesn't run - we'd only have gotten to the stud 1 day earlier.  (Mon, not Tues.)  Plus of course Idexx said Fri was 'too early really' to retest...

I'm going to be incredibly interested in what our result is from Monday morning and whether we get a mating on Tues morning!!!

Are you still testing for ferning and doing the ovu pads? I am VERY interested in what is going on there and would like to see pictures of the fronds now in accordance to her day in heat and what Idexx will say when you test monday am for a comparison.

Yes, I'm still doing all that.

The ovulation pads, after the scare on Day 4(!) - which the woman who sells them says was a Negative - and which I cleared up with the progesterone results on Day 5 progesterone test - they have since then been consistently negative.  They are just a terracotta sort of colour from the blood.  I still have hope they will work... I will start to do them twice a day soon.

The ferning has been a bit all over the place - after that single fern on Day 5, I had a sample with some air bubbles in - which greatly affected the results and I couldn't really tell how much ferning there was.  I tried not using the pipette for a day (since it aerates the sample), but that came back with nothing on the slide (as per my Day 2 and 3 results).  Since I switched back to using the pipette and was careful to tap air out of the sample, I then got a kind of icicles sort of ferning, still not covering the whole slide and not yet really dense.  This leads me to believe that people who say they see nothing when they do ferning are just wiping the thing on the dog's tongue and this isn't getting enough saliva on the slide and it doesn't work.  (You also need to focus the FertilFocus thing, as if you don't it will look like there's nothing there!).

So basically, if I use the pipette, I always seem to get ferning of some degree.  If I don't use the pipette, I don't.  So far it doesn't seem to have much correlation to where we are in the dog's cycle - unless it's about how much there is/how dense it is.  Which is the only reason I keep doing it - to see if it's going to get denser...

gsdowner, good luck for tomorrow and hope you get another mating and tie :)

Arg, just got a positive result (I think) on the ovulation pads this evening (Day 8).

If she ovulated today (Fri, Day 8), and we breed Tues morning (Day 12), are we ok?? I think we should be, just?? (Eggs take 48hrs to mature, then live for 48-72 hours???)

Rabid, I can understand your anxiety....but.....seems to me you're trying too many things all at once and it's clouding the issue.

I think one of the common issues for new breeders is they are so anxious about being too late, they go to the stud too early, which then results in failed matings with no puppies, 'cause natures just not ready.

I know you have travel arrangements to make, it's not a case of just jumping in the car and going to the stud, so if I was in your shoes, I'd stick with Indexx, it appears to be the most reliable test, reading other breeder comments...and ditch the rest!

I've only ever relied on the bitch, dog and stud dog owner, I've never had the need to do any kind of pr-mate test, and it's worked so far.....

Take some deep breaths.....reevaluate the situation and chill out....

Thanks Charlie Brown... I'd just hoped, by running these other things alongside Idexx, to find something else that works so I can use that in future...

If we just look at the Idexx results, then, there's no way a bitch testing 1.1nmol on Tues (Day 5) can be ovulating on Day 8??

I know what you mean.....but I'm not sure any of them are particularly reliable, and I can only comment from others comments, but it does seem that Indexx is the most reliable and bitches can be not ready one day but are the next .... I think a rise can happen pretty quickly....I've read where results have shown low readings one day and the next test results say 'mate now without delay'!

Each one of us would like a fail safe way to know when a bitch is definitely ready before we make our way to the stud dog, but at the minute there isn't anything, so we use whatever method works best for us. Just think using different tests is really confusing......

Not sure I'd like a stick shoved up my foo-foo every day, soon to be twice, and a bottle pushed in my mouth to collect saliva every day either.....and then a blood test....I'd soon get cheesed off and become very uptight....and all this before I even met the stud dog.

It needs to be an enjoyable experience in my opinion.....from the start of the season to puppies going to their new homes can be quite a while.....you don't want to be anxious and stressed for the best part of 6 months

Well after some grumbling at each other and 2 (almost) slips, we got the 2nd tie but she wasn't happy about it and it only lasted 16 minutes this time.

Going by her behaviour yesterday and this morning she was what I would call 'gagging for it' but as soon as we got there and she finished marking her availability everywhere - she took one look at him and tried to head back to the car! And yet, we have been home for little over an hour now and she is back to humping one of my other in season girls and vice versa.

I personally think that she either ovulated day 8  - not 9, and we were lucky to get the 2nd tie or that the window is shorter for her and after a single tie she loses interest. Either way, it's a waiting game now and keeping finger's crossed that my more dominant bitch doesn't cause this girl to absorb if she does take. Then I shall call the scanner back in 3 weeks to have her checked out.

Try to stay calm and don't rush in to anything - i'm sure it will all work out fine :)

It's great you got another tie though.  Were you holding her both times during the mating, or just the tie?

Yes, I am feeling better now.  It's just about the travel and the accommodation.  I mean, imagine if every time you wanted to change the day you were going to your stud, you were threatened with rebooking ferries and accommodation... then I think folks might get some of the stress we're under!!  I've spoken to folks in Europe who bring their girls here for mating, and because they have the Chunnel and multiple different ferry companies, they know they can travel whenever they want.  So they stay home until they get an ovulation happened result and then bolt over and have 2 matings on consecutive days and go home again.  We just can't do that because there is one ferry company and that's the only way off the island.

I think once we get there, I will feel much more relaxed

I'd disagree that any of this is excessively stressful though.  The saliva test, I just tease her with a pipette like a toy and when she bites it, I suck up some gob.  The ovulation pads, she is fed constant treats and is more than happy about the routine.  I trimmed the edges so they weren't sharp.  We did the 1st herpes jab today, which she had whilst eating a fistful of treats and didn't seem to notice.  The blood tests are the hardest/most stressful, but even those I wouldn't say she is that traumatised by, because I've been getting her used to the position and the restraint and desensitised to having her neck pinched and poked for months now.  Luckily I think we will only need 2... we'll see.

I held her steady once there was a tie - the stud dog owner did most of the handling and I just went by her directions.

I get where you're coming from as it is just as stressful when you only have one or two girls and a limited time frame. But right now I know that apart from taking her for her vaccine, I have done everything I possibly can before the scan.

I think I agree with you. As long as your girl is happy there isn't anything wrong with trialing all the various methods. As mentioned before, next time I have a season here, I am planning on conducting a science experiment to try and observe how successful any of these methods actually are even though I don't plan on a mating...

I will report back!!  I had a reply from the woman who sells the ovulation pads, who said she thought it was just blood on the edge of a pad.  Well, it defo wasn't that... It was a real purply colour change.  If even she can't interpret them, then I'm not sure where that leaves the method(!).

The ferning just seems to be equally fern-y whatever day I test, as long as I use the pipette and get enough of a sample and tap the air bubbles out of it.  I am getting more crystals around the ferning, so maybe that is meaningful - but not getting a whole roadmap of ferning as in some of the photos, yet.

I do worry all these other methods just muddy the waters for me and create a lot of anxiety, like Charlie BRown said - and I should just stick to progesterone testing.

Unless you're trying the other methods alongside that, to compare to scientific reality, I'm not sure it's possible to know if they are accurate or not...  Someone should do some real research into the pads, though.  There has been some real research into ferning, and it wasn't very positive, see:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45422990_Saliva_crystallisation_as_a_means_of_determining_optimal_mating_time_in_bitches 

Gsdowner....Humour me, because I don't use any tests and I might be missing something, how can you tell how successful a test is if you don't follow it through with a mating?

> Arg, just got a positive result (I think) on the ovulation pads this evening (Day 8).<br />

There is no scientific evidence to support these 'ovulation pads' or saliva slides, actually tell you anything, if it was that simple we could stop taking bloods from our bitches. 

The fact that bitches get pregnant more often than not is probably why people think they work, about as well as always wearing green when mating a bitch or any other kind of old wives tale.

Ditto the Draminski, which at a breeding seminar one of the top reproductive specialists told us they are not designed for dogs but cattle and are not indicative of anything for bitches.

Ah, the voice of scientific reason     Yes, I think I am just terrifying myself with all these dodgy results really.

Tomorrow morning we go for another progesterone test, then we're getting the ferry overnight that night, and trying a mating Tues morning (before getting blood result).  (I'm just a bit nervous about it being too late.)  If the bloods come back low still, or if no mating happens, we can potentially wait as long as Sat morning to go again.

I hope we've covered as many bases as we can and keep fingers crossed we get a JUST RIGHT blood test result, neither over nor too low, from our test tomorrow!!!!

I want to compare ovulation results not outcome. I want to investigate whether the ovulation pads, ferning and swabbing show ovulation to be taking place at the same time as idexx. My curiosity is in whether any of these other methods are reliable or just money spinning ideas...

I want to compare ovulation results not outcome. I want to investigate whether the ovulation pads, ferning and swabbing show ovulation to be taking place at the same time as idexx. My curiosity is in whether any of these other methods are reliable or just money spinning ideas...

There are some people who really believe these methods to be fool proof...a bit like people trying to witch eggs in order to get more female chicks out of a clutch. There are also numerous videos of dogs peeing on human pregnancy tests to prove that the bitch is pregnant. Lots of people swear it works because they get a positive result and a litter but how many people have compared with a bitch who has missed, hasn't been mated and a male at the same time?

I won't apologise for what seems like a silly idea but there has been a constant trickle of questions over the years with regards to these methods and apart from some people saying there isn't any actual evidence to show these methods don't work no one actually wants to try proving these theories either way. So even if it does humour some members, at least I'm interested enough to try.

I think Charlie Brown's point is that, unless you're running the tests alongside Idexx, how will you know if they are accurate? 

And it will be v expensive to run Idexx tests when you don't plan on a mating(!). 

I've kind of been running my own experiment, this time round, and I think I've decided that, in future, I'll just stick to progesterone testing and assume beforehand I'll need 2-3 tests.  Unless I use a local stud dog who we can visit on an almost daily basis, or have him living with the bitch. 

The worry generated by these other tests just aint worth the hassle!  (I got a negative result last night on the ovulation pads - that was negative Friday morning, positive Friday night and Sat morning, then negative Sat night - when they are supposed to colour change for 2-3 days.)

I plan on trying with 2 idexx tests if I can or possibly 3 and if it helps to give a definitive answer then, I would probably do it even if I won't be having a litter :)

Wow, that is dedication :)

Exactly Rabid.....

It seems a bit of a pointless exercise.....if it was going to be so easily proved one method works by doing a programme of tests, wouldn't it have been proved already?

As Brainless has already said, ferning and ovulation pads are not at all reliable, blood testing is the best there is.....

Well it's already been proven under experimental conditions that ferning doesn't work:   https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45422990_Saliva_crystallisation_as_a_means_of_determining_optimal_mating_time_in_bitches

If you look at that chart, you'll see how massively it can vary - the timing of ferning and ovulation and the LH surge.  So I think the ferning thing has been researched, but not sure about the foofoo pads...

... it would be good for someone to just figure out what the ovulation pads are, exactly, for starters(!) - that should be easy enough, surely?

You would have thought so.....seems it's a highly guarded secret though!

I believe they are simply glucose testing strips as used for diabetics, or human LH surge tests.  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Glucose+testing+strips&newwindow=1&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&rlz=1I7SAVV_enGB549&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidkYbB_JbMAhVMXhoKHZk4AkoQ_AUICCgC&biw=1097&bih=535
No idea if there is any correlation between sugar and bitch hormone levels

I have a feeling you might be correct barbara. Going by the colour guide, the sticks are measuring ketosis

Im so worried we are going to be late.

We just had an horrendous experience with the 2nd blood test, where the vet couldn't find a vein - her veins are really hard to see. After being stuck twice and nothing coming out, she got really stressed and when the vet did find a vein, 3rd time, she leapt around and the vet couldn't get enough blood. Then she got a big swelling in her neck from the blood coming out - and had to be taken behind the scenes where they applied pressure and took blood from the other side of her neck.

Feel totally awful and crap for putting her through that and I don't think I'd go for progesterone testing very easily again now. When it goes wrong, it is very stressful. It wasn't anything the vet did wrong, just what happens if veins aren't easy.

I am also really worried we are too late and she has gone over and all this is for nothing... Her swelling has gone down a LOT.

She was only 1.1nmol on Tues (Day 5) but how I wish we'd ignored Idexx 's advice and tested Friday. (Day 8). But we waited till Mon (Day 11). You think, if you do these tests and test when they tell you, that they are pretty foolproof - but the weekend really screws things up.

Much as I poo-pooed them, we did get a positive result on the ovulation pads Fri evening and Sat morning. I know she might still be ok if mated Tues, on that, but it's cutting it fine.

Can anyone offer any reassurance that we might not have gone over?

Is her swelling going down an indication we've gone over?