Just picked up a new older bitch puppy today, five and half months. I have a two year old of the same breed who is happiness personified and nothing or no one phases her. Loves other dogs from tinies to giant breeds providing they are sociable.

The breeder confidently told me that this puppy was well socialised with other dogs, kids, cars, and had been introduced to the lead and walked locally etc etc, and was a very laid back and friendly little pup, and indeed when I went to see her she appeared to be just that, although I did witness a short cerfuffal with another asult dog whilst I was sorting paperwork out, but don't know if it was started by the pup or the adult. I assumed at the time that it was the adult telling the puppy off ( now I'm not so sure). The breeder had quiet a large pack of adult dogs and some puppies running around.

Now we get home. My own girl very happy to see me so I take her out for a wee and give her five minutes to settle down again before I bring pup in. I go out to the garden and have pup in my arms and I crouch down with pups bottom facing my little one so that she can gently sniff her, which she did, or tried to do. Pup tries to swing round snarling and litteraly lunges at my little one and in the process, badly bites me. Don't blame the pup.

I take puppy back inside and put her in puppy pen in kitchen. My little one runs into lounge very stressed and pees on my new rug(thanks baby), not her fault as she is clearly bewilldered.

It is now 7 hours later and my little girl is now scared to pass the puppy in pen  as even if new puppy sees my girl any where in her sight, she snarls and runs at the pen to get to my girl.

Really need Help to sort this out. This is the first time that I have taken an older puppy, oldest in the past has been 3 months, and even if I have in the passed brought in a rescue, I have never seen such a reaction either from new or existing pup/dog. I would have thought that it would be my girl, if any, that would have had the bad reaction.

I will have to let this behaviour pass for tonight (older girl taken refuge upstairs) but I cannot let it continue. Not sure what the issue is as it could be anything from just plain nervousness upon leaving her pack at such a late age, to the fact that at nearly six months she is full grown (small breed) and is one of those bitches that don't tolerate other bitches, although I have never experienced this myself. I have always had several bitches living happily together and only once, owned a male as I just prefer bitches.

Any advice welcome as how to handle this situation. If it appears that I have handled the introduction all wrong please chip in as don't mind critisism providing it is constructive.

You should have done introductions on neutral ground,when I go to pick up a new dog, oldest was nearly 2yrs old, I take the others along too and have the new dog in a carrier on the front seat and the others in the back, they can see and smell each other, on the way home we either stop off at a friends or the park to do introductions.

When we get home then the settling in continues with a safe place for the new one to go if older or be put if a pup and watch very carefully how everyone is reacting, maybe I have been lucky but they have all settled in well.

Did the pup see the adult before you offered it's bum to it? Maybe it got a fright to be approached in a vulnerable area by a strange dog and not be able to get away, it isn't something I would have done, I make sure they can see and sniff the front end first, this may be a breed specific reaction, you are allowed to mention breed as long as it isn't in the breeding section.

Hope someone can help who has had the same problem and sorted it.

Too late now, but I think perhaps not introducing the two on neutral territory was a mistake; the pup was 100% out of its comfort zone and was being restrained when an unknown dog approached from behind, which is a clear threat. (With an unvaccinated baby pup you'd have the older dog restrained on a lead and the new pup loose so that it could react normally.) A defensive reaction was guaranteed. The new pup could well be building up to her first season so her hormones are likely to be somewhat awry, which won't help.

However what's done is done and now you have to overcome the first impression both dogs have of each other. Personally I'd swap over their bedding so that they started to get used to each other's scent, but keep them totally apart for a day or two to allow the tension to subside a bit. Good luck!

I go out to the garden and have pup in my arms and I crouch down with pups bottom facing my little one so that she can gently sniff her, which she did, or tried to do. Pup tries to swing round snarling and litteraly lunges at my little one and in the process, badly bites me.

I would say this was the main mistake, because the pup had nowhere to go when she felt unsure, she was effectively trapped. I brought home a 5 month old pup not long ago, and I simply put her on the floor. She felt a bit overwhelmed, as she was being welcomed by not one other dog but 3 much larger dogs, 6 of the same breed and one slightly bigger of a different breed. She spent the first day staying out of the way, wanting to hide behind my legs etc. I resisted the temptation to have her on my lap as a dog up on your lap is more likely to have a go at others below. By the next day she was running around with the rest of them playing. This is a breed known to get on well with others.

I also agree with Rhodac that ideally introductions of new dogs that aren't young pups are better done away from home. This is what I'd always do with my other breed who don't welcome others quite as easily.

I don't think the puppy pen helps because a dog "behind bars" so to speak will naturally want to defend their space, and will therefore come across as more aggressive towards others than they would be otherwise. It sounds like both the dogs are scared but just react in different ways. Could you get the help of another person tomorrow and take both dogs out to a neutral area and first just walk side by side, then let them meet?

I agree totally with Goldmali and JG.  You took a puppy which is clearly under-socialised (this topic has come up before, but I'd really expect any pup which is 6mnths old, and not yet left the breeder's, to be undersocialised - since it's not usual for a breeder to provide adequate socialisation for pups beyond the age of 8wks - unless the breeder is really well-clued up and organised)... and you forced the puppy to show its rear end to your older dog.  This is a very powerless position to be in, and understandably the puppy was terrified and felt out of control, unable to move away from what she was scared of, and reacted to protect herself.

I'd suggest you keep the 2 dogs separate for now, but where they can see and smell each other.  It may take several days or a week or two.  Crate one, and let the other out.  Or put one behind stair gates and let the other out on the other side.  You're just working at getting them acclimatised to being near each other and to the smell of each other.  Take walks but as Goldmali says, have both on lead handled by a different person - walk next to each other and don't let them reach each other at first, till you see that they have relaxed a bit in each other's presence.  There is no rush, since you're not dealing with a puppy within the socialisation period - you've missed that.  Instead, you can take it slow and steady and at the dogs' pace.

When you do first let them meet each other, keep it frequent but brief - frequent sniffs of each other, before you separate them again.  Don't let a prolonged interaction happen at first, till you see that the sniffs are going well.

I know I have probably made mistakes (who hasn't, that how we learn - hindsite is a wonderful thing),what works in one situation does not always work in another. Thats why I am looking for advice, sooner rather than later.

New pup was very much aware of the older dog before she came to sniff her, older dog running around the garden at that time, and the reason that I prefered her to sniff rear, is nose to nose of strange dogs I believe is far more threatening.

Reason I had new pup in my arms was older dog, as stated earlier is very friendly and she assumes that every dog she meets wants to play. I have been very lucky in that all the dog walkers in my area have friendly dogs and we inadvertently meet several times a week and dogs play together. What I am trying to say is, that I didn't want the older one to overwhelm the puppy with her enthusiasm by putting her straight on the ground,  as both dog and pup are same size and if I had put puppy on the ground my girl would have assumed that she was here to play. My girl would treat a younger (smaller)puppy much more sensitively and although puppy is only nearly six months old, they are both the same size and weight.

It is possible that she is nearing her first season early (normally about 8 months in this breed) as her teats are quite swollen, and I distinctly remember that my girls didn't swell until her first season. This may be indicative or not, time will tell.

I agree that it would be better to try and walk them together, but having spoken to breeder since getting home, the puppy at nearly six months (although I was told differently) has only been in breeders car to the vet for vac's and has never been outside and walked on lead. She has never worn a collar. One of the obstacles, I am assuming, is to get her used to a collar and lead and out on the street, which in inself is going to be somewhat stressful for her at this age.

I have phoned my groomer who has suggested that I bring pup in on Monday and she will do 'mini groom' if she is not too stressed. Older dog was already booked in for the 'full monty'.  This will mean that they will have to travel in car together (difference crates).

I take on board the point puppy pen, but don't want a full on fight. I have tried separating the kitchen whilst I was working in there with one either side and pup still confrontational even with older dog sat at far end minding her business. Same situation with baby gates between them in different rooms. (bear in mind that pup is not housetrained so I cannot let her run around willy nilly at the moment) Will try as suggested, swopping bedding around and put older dog in pen and let pup free to see if that improves situation.

Was the pup returned or has the breeder had the pup all along as I wonder ( hope I am wrong) that she may have been returned because of her temperament ? It sounds like the breeder has not been very truthful at all .

Is she KC registered and fully health tested ?

I was about to add that too.  I would be concerned about a pup that was acting so aggressively.

Hi LJS, I did ask if the puppy had been returned for any reason before I went to see her because of her age. The breeder said no, she had thought about keeping her but decided that she had too many already. But I am/have been thinking upon those very lines myself.

Yes, she is KC registered and health checked.

In the twilight zone this morning as only 3 hours disturbed sleep. Will no doubt be getting complaints from the neighbours as as soon as I walk out of the room she is howling and barking constantly.

> I agree that it would be better to try and walk them together, but having spoken to breeder since getting home, the puppy at nearly six months (although I was told differently) has only been in breeders car to the vet for vac's and has never been outside and walked on lead. She has never worn a collar. One of the obstacles, I am assuming, is to get her used to a collar and lead and out on the street, which in inself is going to be somewhat stressful for her at this age.

This makes me so, so angry :-(  If a pup is stuck with the breeder beyond 8 weeks then regardless of their plans, they are responsible for the socialisation of that pup.  So often I see dogs that have come from exactly that sort of situation, they haven't been sold and the breeder hasn't bothered to do the essential work to get the pup used to the world and the pup ends up with all sorts of issues :-(

Get rewarding her now - any and all interactions with your older dog, and that includes looking at her from another room.  Anything and everything that's done without aggression gets rewarded - every look, every sniff of her scent when she's gone past, the works.  Only have them together when you are ready and armed to reward both dogs quickly and often - the younger one for everything good, the older one for being calm and heeding any warnings given by the pup (any growls or stares, anything that suggests she's uncomfortable means the older one should move away).

It can be sorted out so long as you monitor everything and make sure it's a positive experience for both - DO NOT tell the pup off if she has a grump, this will only add stress and make the older dog a source of punishment.  If she does have a grump, split them for a while (or separate them further apart if they are already separate - so a closed door instead of seeing each other through a gate, for example) then try again.

Same rules out and about - anything good gets rewarded.  Keep a good supply of treats handy!  And, I'd get her used to a clicker too - it will speed the process up no end and enable you to pinpoint good behaviour much faster and more precisely.  It'll make it a lot clearer to her too.

Most dogs I take on are undersocialised in one way or another and I've integrated several with dog issues now, two very severe (one I know was completely unsocialised to everything from 9 weeks and she arrived here after 5.5yrs of aggression to dogs and people of all ages) - they still learned to love their new friends and were very happy here :-)

Lazy breeder, makes me cross.

There is nothing to stop a breeder doing lead work with a pup from 8 weeks, you should practise at home anyway before taking them out, so that once they go off premises they only deal with the strangeness of being down at street level, not fighting a lead and collar.

Why has a pup of nearly 6 months not been taken regularly for walks?  Surely she should have been taken to classes (ringcraft/puppy socialisation and/or obedience).

Makes me think that the breeders other dogs don't get taken out either. I have had no issue taking a pup out using a holdall to support their weight while I carried them and walked the others, or even better getting the OH to carry pup.

From my current litter one pup is staying to 10 1/2 weeks and another to 12, and they certainly will have had leads on, and been out on walks being carried.

I have put a collar and a soft harness on the puppy this morning and attached a light lead. Any attempt to put tension on the lead sends her hysterical so she has not, I assume experienced this. I was hoping that the breeder told the truth that she had been lead walked so that I could, have others have suggested, tried a walk together.

My girl unfortunately has pushed through the gate to come into kitchen, stopped in the doorway and puppy was loose. Puppy lunged at my girl and has caught her nose. The agression came from pup she had the option to retreat, my girl did not approach her. All happened too fast for me to intervene.

She seems to be a very 'sweet' puppy in that she is very friendly and calm with me when my girl is not in the picture. I can quite easily see that she would be fine as the first dog in the household, and maybe ok at a later date if another was introduced (my neighbours have just been round again, whilst I am writing this post, about the barking and howling - it is incessant if I am out of sight for even a moment), hence lack of sleep last night. I ended up in an armchair in dining room, and had to crate, much to her disgust, my girl in lounge.

I know all of the advice is brilliant, and mistakes were made, but from what I am hearing I think your eldest dog is going to be in big trouble, I doubt that the correct introduction would have make any difference here - sorry, but I'd return this pup pronto. You are going to have 2 bitches fighting here and your girls life is going to be a misery.

I would take her back immediately.

Also, meant to add that I am retired and live alone so don't have the help of another person in the household that can work with or supervised one of them. It's me trying to divide myself in two at the moment.

> I would take her back immediately....> I doubt that the correct introduction would have make any difference here

I agree with Carrington. I think this promises to be too difficult to get right. If you can return her sooner rather than later, then maybe you could try again with a young puppy - 8 weeks or whatever the recommended age is for the breed.

Thanks Carrington, I have tried to contact breeder half an hour ago to discuss this but no response, I have left a message and sent off an email asking her to contact me asap.

I also, although gratefully respecting the imput from others regarding the correct introduction, feel that it would have made any difference here. I feel that it is down to lack of proper socialisation. Checking her paperwork, she is six months old today and was only vaccinated a month ago.

Breeder said she intended keeping her but decided to let her go. Did she see something in this pup herself that she didn't like?I don't know. I just know that after 24 hours I am exhausted and disalutioned, my girl is very stressed and won't eat and has come upstairs 10 minutes ago and been sick.

Unless you're going to be in it for the long-haul and feel you've already made an attachment to the pup, I'd take her back to the breeder too. 

If breeder doesn't answer emails or phone, just go over there with the pup.  Assuming it's not too far...

I hope that you can get her back to the breeder today, fingers crossed. It's not your fault I can see how this will go and you don't want your nice natured girl to be affected by this, keep them away from each other don't even try to socialise them together this bitch is likely to attack your girl the minute she sees her.

What a horrible situation for you all.......

As this is not a breeding thread can you say what breed they are.  Any potential ongoing aggression issues can be worse with some breeds than others, so advice may vary.

I think getting her back to he breeder really is the best thing to do, and this time hopefully the breeder will do the work they should have done with her.
.

Boo, next time I'd really recommend you only take on a puppy which is no older than 8wks.  Unfortunately there are many breeders around like this one, who want to rid themselves of older puppies they were unable to sell, and will tell you all kinds of things such as they are 'well socialised' etc etc, all to have them taken off their hands.  Unless you know for sure that a breeder is reputable and has done the socialising, it's best not to get involved with older puppies - for reasons like this.  If you do try an older puppy, it might be best to see if you determine beforehand how they are with other dogs - and not just the dogs which the breeder happens to have, but strange dogs as well.

I agree that it probably wouldn't have made any difference, the way you introduced them - but it was not ideal to hold a scared puppy still so it couldn't move away from the scary big dog.  That kind of thing only increases the likelihood of an aggressive response. 

Breeder is two and a half to three hours away, depending upon traffic so unless she answers I can't risk going over today as that is 5 to 6 hour round trip.

I am aquainted with someone who got a puppy from her although it was an 8 week old pup, so entirely different situation.

Me again feeling extremely stupid and worn out!

Still no contact from breeder, must not take calls on a Sunday or answer emails, or does not want to respond because it's me. With regard to taking this puppy back, there is no guarantee that she would agree and don't know what my options are or rights and so tired and not able to think it through. Should she agree, what are my rights re refund? It's not like it's Tesco and can return goods (sounds awful I know), she is a living breathing little thing and this is not her fault.

I have gone over her adverts on a couple of sites and they say 'very well socialised with other dogs and children'. I now have to assume that she means her children and her dogs. Is this not misleading?

You are not stupid at all just I think have been somewhat misled.

What might be a good idea is to contact a good behaviourist and get her assessed as it will help withe with a plan to retrain and resocialise her or give you back up when you talk with the breeder.

In law she is classed as goods, and goods not fit for purpose, and not as advertised, is what you have. 

So if the breeder will not take her back then trading standards may be able to help.

Again what breed are we discussing.  What kind of character/temperament is typical.

Going by Boo's profile pic, it looks like Bichons (although very small, I can hardly see)...

Brainless, I have sent you a message.

Rabid, not a Bichon. I have, for the moment, a reason I do not want to name the breed. Sorry

Makes me so angry to hear about breeders like this one. :( The 5 month old pup I got not long ago (2 months ago) was very well socialised indeed, I walked her out of the breeder's house on a lead (despite her being a toydog that easily could have been carried) and I've really not had to teach her anything at all. A month after I got her I took her to her first show where she qualified for Crufts, she's since been to two more shows and got Best Puppy at both. Tail always wagging. I say this just to show that if you find a breeder that does their job, it's no problem at all getting an older pup. However I guess the trouble is identifying such a breeder as it is all too easy to lie. :(

I wouldn't let it put you - or anyone - taking on an older pup, but I would say next time take your dogs to meet the pup.... I imported a just under 4 month old pup from Germany and he slotted straight in, had been house trained, basic training etc and was brilliant... I've just taken on an 8 month old who has been imported and clearly had little training from her breeder and didn't settle at the importers house, but has settled really well here, such a cutie....

From PM's the breeder has been identified as a commercial breeder Licensed with the LA for some 30 dogs I believe.

This shows exactly why commercial scale breeding, though perfectly legal and legitimate activity according to the powers that be, it shows it runs counter to the best interests in rearing and acclimatising puppies to life as a companion animal, unless they are sold very young, and the work is done by the new owners.

Disgraceful

"I have gone over her adverts on a couple of sites and they say 'very well socialised with other dogs and children'. I now have to assume that she means her children and her dogs. Is this not misleading?"
If, as Brainless suggested, you need to go down the route of Trading Standards and returning the dog/getting a refund based on the fact that the 'goods were not as described' then I would take printouts, screen dumps or photo's of the adverts that you have found - you will need to provide these as evidence of how the pup was advertised in a misleading manner.

I really hope you are able to find a way out of this situation, could you ring the breeder on a friends mobile so that the number is not recognised? At least that way you can speak to them.  If they were still refusing to speak to you I think I may be inclined to get the friend to ring instead of me and make an appointment to buy a puppy and then turn up with your 6 month old demanding a refund under the Sale of Goods Act.  At least that way you know they will be there when you get there, after all they will be expecting a puppy buyer, so a new customer!

Great idea luddingtonhall...

> in the process, badly bites me.

I would also take a photo of your wound from the bite. I'm guessing the breeder won't want you to show it as evidence anywhere so it might help her to make up her mind to take the dog back and return your money.

Update on my post and further advice needed asap.

I managed to make contact with breeder yesterday morning and she was very surprised about the situation. Agreed that I can take puppy back but not that day as she is very busy and out all day. I asked if I could take her today and she agreed but said it would have to be late in the day as she has a potential customer for a show puppy. I agreed to take her later in the day but not ideal.

I then had a urgent message from my daughter asking me to take her for urgent medical procedure today that required sedation so that she could not drive. I contacted breeder to ask if could take her tomorrow (which would be today) and breeder happy with this as it is more convenient. Don't know if breeder playing silly begars anyway, to delay me.

During the several exchanges with the breeder she did admit that this puppy that she had previously described to me in an email as 'sweet natured, quite and laid back but not SHY, with waggy tail' is actually a shy and nervous puppy, but not so bad as the two that she has for sale that are 4 months old (hence why she did not KC register the 4 months old ones)
(going a bit away from my eventual question, she is advertising these 4 month old puppies, that she has now told me are very shy and nervous, on one of the websites as having 'superb personalities, very friendly and cuddly')

Back to my dilema: Last night had a major breakthrough in the pup one side of the baby gate and older dog at the other. Older dog approaches gate and no snarling, snapping occured from puppy, but puppy now licking older dogs face through the bars - knock me down with a feather.

This morning, same again so I let older dog out into garden and and puppy sat at my side in door way giving her the option to go out or retreat to puppy pen and she stepped out onto patio. Older dog approached slowly with big waggy tail, puppy did the submissive puppy 'squirm'  and older dog licked puppy and then ran off with puppy cautiously following.

After getting back from hospital with my daughter at lunch time, I did the same again, older dog out first, puppy given the option of following and within minutes they are playing together. I have supervised several short sessions of this play between them and now puppy is chasing older dog round garden as older dog is 'teasing' her with toy - come and get me.

I have had several PM regarding taking the puppy back, not taking the puppy back as not the right place to take her back to and my mind is a jumble of what to do for the best. Puppy is extremely nervous and jumps at everthing and although she gets upset if I leave the room - howls and cries pittifully, when I come back she comes running with waggy tail and although I crouch down to her she freezes, although she clearly wants contact. Last night she was quiet for the first time overnight.

What to do?????????? Is it possible that I can get her through this as I can see lots of issues that need to be dealt with? Lead walking, going outside anyway, she runs in if a pigeon coo's, car travel, meeting new dogs and people etc. I can also see a potenial lovely girl at the other side, given half a chance.

I am going to have to make up my mind before morning as I am reluctant to return her because I am sure that one of her agression problems may have stemmed from being shy and nervous in a housefull of many adult dogs and maturing puppies who may have bullied her and therefore the agression is of a nervous nature. Second reason is that she will put this puppy back up for sale and the poor little soul will have to go through this again, maybe several times.

I know that she is going to do this as my daughter contacted her yesterday after she agreed to take puppy back, re-advert and was told that she had 2 x 4 month old puppies not registered and one 6 month old girl KC reg(this one)

My own older girl is so outgoing and confident and happy go lucky that maybe she would be a big help towards giving this little one confidence - I don't know, perhaps clutching at straws.

It may be that if I contact the breeder again and suggest I keep her for a futher week to see how she progresses, she will agree to this, but if she does agree and it does not work out, I will feel dreadful to return her after nearly two weeks as this will not only upset me (trying not to get attached, but it is not working) but seems a cruel way to treat this little girl.

Someone please help me to get my head around this and make the right decision for both dogs and me.

Well, there's no easy answer Boo.  But I'm glad that my suggestion of keeping them separated by stairgates etc until the puppy acclimatises to the older dog seems to have worked.

The dilemma is, there is no one solution which is best for all.  What is best for you (alone), is clearly to return this puppy and go and find a better, well-adjusted and socialised and possibly younger puppy and start again.  What is best for the puppy is clearly to be in a home where someone is trying to help her.  If you decide to keep the puppy, you do that with the knowledge that it will take time and work and you may never have a perfectly adjusted dog, even after that.  If you choose to return the puppy, you do that with the knowledge that it will not be to the best circumstances for the puppy.

Unfortunately this happens all the time, when people go to view puppies bred by puppy farmers or in pet shops - they feel sorry for the puppy in those circumstances and they buy the puppy to 'rescue' it from those conditions.  Their money then lines the pocket of the breeder, who continues breeding, because people continue buying. 

The decision depends on whether you want to cut your losses now.  And on how attached you are to the puppy.  You don't have a duty to rescue this one puppy, anymore than you have a duty to rescue any of the billions of puppies you haven't met, living in terrible conditions.  Just because you happened to have brought this one home....

I know, Rabid that there is no easy answer. I'm just trying, with so little time, to find the right or best answer for me, my very well adjusted little girl and this puppy.

My greatest fear in all this is that she is fine around the house and with visiting family , but how she is likely to react when out when meeting other dogs - I can,t get a lead on her at the moment as she is terrified so this may take a long while to achieve.

Another issue which has come to mind, is that once or twice a week I mind my two and a half year old grandson who is disabled and can't walk. He crawls around the floor and as he has grown up with my girl since she was 3 months old, the pair of them play 'rough' and tumble. My girl is very gentle with him - dogs do seem to know. He is going to think that this puppy is also going to want to play with him and this, I can't call. I can obviously shut the puppy away while he is here as that would solve the problem, though not ideal.

I do feel so guilty that if I take this little one back I am the villan and so letting her down.

You won't let her down is she does to back it is the breeder that has not being totally honest from the start so don't use guilt as a reason to keep her.

If she were male I may say keep him but as it is a bitch I would be worried what will happen when the pup has her season, it could start the aggression off again and it could be worse, it may not but I think there is a high chance and that is not fair on your existing pet.

This is also in my mind as a consideration. Breeder also asked me if she was in season (breeder obviously not checked) she said that she saw the 'spat' between puppy and older dog, but said most of the bitches in the room are in season at the moment so that would have caused the spat.

If she had said at the outset that this puppy was shy and nervous I would never have agreed to buying her - oh dear, what to do.........

Send her back Boo, she is not what you want and may well cause huge upset in your household.

If it were me I would keep her. You have gone through the worst part of introducing her to your home and dog and you are already seeing progress. Yes she is going to be a lot of work, more so than a 'normal' pup but if you are willing to put that work in I think you will reap the rewards as you say she really is a lovely pup but with issues and it sounds like you have a fantastic dog fornher to learn from.
However, I would still pursue the breeder and attempt to expose them. They are clearly breeding on a large scale, and not fulfilling their promise of what wonderful pups they are producing.makes me so mad, there are probably plenty of others like you who have ended up in your position and i dread to think whats happened to the pups in a society where anything thats notmperfect is thrown away. I really feel for you and hopemyou find a happy outcome for all concerned.x

Well there you are two opposing views so you can take your pick.

suppose my view is a bit colored but the fact that I have had to re-home a bitch because of bitch on bitch aggression and that is very hard to do once they are part of the household.

Older dog approaches gate and no snarling, snapping occurred from puppy, but puppy now licking older dogs face through the bars - knock me down with a feather.

Me too!

Older dog approached slowly with big waggy tail, puppy did the submissive puppy 'squirm'  and older dog licked puppy and then ran off with puppy cautiously following.

Sounds good, I am personally shocked at this turn around, but happy shocked. :-)

is actually a shy and nervous puppy, but not so bad as the two that she has for sale that are 4 months old (hence why she did not KC register the 4 months old ones)

So we have 3 pups that you just know of with terribly shy and nervous temperaments, not good is it? In fact absolutely terrible. As for not KC registering the 4 month olds due to their temperaments, what? KC registration is nothing to do with temperament it is proof that you have a pedigree dog.  We all endorse our pups to make sure if they are ever bred from only dogs with good temperament, health and to breed standard are ever used, and endorsements will not be lifted if not.

I have never heard such poppycock as a reason not to KC reg, obviously it suggests that either the dam or sire are not KC reg to start with, too many litters have already been bred by said dam, or dam is too old or too young.

No, this is not a breeder I would ever wish to return a pup to......... she breeds nervous wrecks by all accounts, alas if the new pup had stayed aggressive towards your older girl I would have had to return her and would suggest you still you do the same.  Keeping the pup longer is a big mistake if fights re-occur as you will get attached and find that return impossible which is what breeders like this hope for.

However, there appears to be real progress here as I said I am shocked and happy to admit when wrong, this will be hard work  but for me training and socialising issues are not a problem as such, although not something you should have to do with a pup this old. Hard work can bring on any pup/adolescent you have time on your side, if willing?

The fighting you can't have, what you described previous was not puppy play which can be vicious, but should never draw blood and have another dog fearful. Now, the new pup is showing normal behaviour signs of a new integrator to the house, confusing......... but good. :-)

If she is beginning to accept your girl as her elder and role model that will be great and will help her immensely.

After this new information I personally would now hold onto the pup and work upwards with her, I really did not foresee such a change in her behaviour and I'm totally shocked it has happened, the other stumbling blocks you can if willing work your way through, you will have to start from scratch but if you have the heart and stamina for it you can do it, it will be hard work though so it is up to you. :-) I certainly would not think badly of you if you wished not to and returned the pup as you have a long way to go.

Alas, we are not there to view her behaviour for ourselves, you will have to use your own instincts here, but the change with your 2 year old girl is a real blessing if that continues and they bond well, your girl will also help install confidence and good behaviour.

It's a hard one, but only a decision you can make, she has not come from a good place and unfortunately keeping pups from places like this only encourages more breeding and more damaged pups, but it is easy to say that when the pup is not in front of you. ;-)

Do you want to do all this hard work........... that is the question and the only question you need to ask yourself. :-)

It sounds to me as if this pup was biting out of fear and nothing else. I once took on a 9 month old bitch who was absolutely terrified -had spent her life in a cage. I won't say she's ever turned into a 100 % normal dog, she has some minor issues, but she is a happy house pet, has passed her GC Bronze, loves life (and walks -and she used to run away at the sight of a lead) and we adore her. When we first got her she'd attack all my bigger dogs on sight out of fear, and she's a lot smaller than them. Now she sleeps cuddled up to them.

I'm really grateful for all this imput, I have along night ahead of me, me thinks.

I really feel that this girl deserves a chance as I can see that all her behaviour is fear based. She's frightened of the least little thing. No confidence at all. Saturday afternoon till yesterday she was too frightened to even toilet on the lawn, just sat shaking a the side of me - she did eventually but it took 20 - 30 minutes standing outside with her, with her appearing to be in a complete panic before she went. Today, when taking her out, she has gone within a few seconds. A major improvement.

She has eaten well today for the first time, but only if I stood at the side of her. If I put the food down and then walk away as she starts to eat, she runs back to bed and hides.

I would be willing to give whatever it takes to help her as my girl has accepted her. My fear is if I keep her too long it will be emotionally impossible to take her back (should the breeder agree to at this point), not to say extremely unkind and traumatic for her. I do have concerns now, as pointed out to me, that as she matures into her first season, and beyond that I may have bitch to bitch aggression. My only hope in this situation is that my older girl is extremely easygoing and if challenged would back down, I feel.

Getting her out and about walking is a worry. I take my girl with me as much as possible. Always when going to my see my children several times a week, sometimes every day. When nipping to supermarket, as then we have a walk around town afterwards which means I must be able to take her into, at times, quite busy streets with other dogs about. I don't want to find myself in the situation that I have to leave her home alone because it is too traumatic for her to leave the house, and I also use home boarding if away for a weeks holiday. This would be difficult as home boarder sometimes has a day boarder as well as her own dog.

This really is a difficult one, we can say what we think is the best way to go but would we do it ourselves, well I am not sure that I would, I know she should go back but I may well not take that action if I were in your place. This may be one of those occasions when spaying before the first season may be worth thinking about, and I am ante neutering but it may help this little girl if she does not have to deal with a hormone surge.

> Now, the new pup is showing normal behaviour signs of a new integrator to the house, confusing......... but good.

I don't find it confusing at all - I find it perfectly normal, for a fearful newcomer.  I see it with every fearful dog I bring home - there is a period at the start when they can be aggressive, fearful, snappy, and reactive because they are in a new place with new dogs and none of it is known, but then they learn the mannerisms and behaviour of the other dogs and relax as those dogs become predictable.

That is all it is, to my mind - predictability.  When she first arrived, your resident girl was a totally unknown quantity to her, totally unpredictable.  Now she's had time to see her body language and from a little distance, she's gotten the hang of her and gained a little confidence and so she's reacting much better to her.

I've gone through this several times now and it's always the same.  I wouldn't take her back myself - I know it's the issue of supporting such an awful breeder but I'm afraid I don't see past the individual dog in these situations, and I would always be thinking about her being back in that situation and wondering what happened to her, did she end up with people who knew what they were doing?  That sort of thing.

Re. spaying - I really, REALLY would consider leaving her be.  I know that the hormones may prove a problem but spaying early in a fearful bitch, especially one that's shown aggression already, could make her issues much worse - similar to neutering a nervous dog, where the testosterone provides confidence.

Work on their relationship, as I said before reward any and all good interactions, make it a really positive thing (even now after they are happy together, keep it up, be proactive) and you can minimise the danger of trouble from the hormones.  Even if you need to separate them while she has a season, I think it's doable, given the turnaround in her behaviour - her issues are from fear, plain and simple.  Make your girl a source of overwhelming positivity!

Yes, lots of difficulties ahead nothing will be a quick fix here, thank goodness you are seeing ahead all that will need working on, you're not going into this blind and that is half the battle, understanding why and being patient will help in trying to socialise, the first and most important thing is you are talking weeks, months, hopefully not but yes, maybe even years.

She has many issues doesn't she?

She needs lots of one to one, lots of tlc and confidence building, you have a damaged pre-adolescent here, you need to begin carrying her around with you, take her everywhere as you do your other dog but do it on your own with her too, for now don't worry about separation anxiety, if that happens it can be worked on afterwards for now she needs to know she is safe and she needs to trust you, so firstly allow her to settle this week into your home, garden and getting to know and respect your girl, don't do too much too soon.

Next week start to take her everywhere with you get her used to noises, people and places, stay upbeat, happy and calm at all times with her, yes she will be frightened at first but she'll pick up every heartbeat and scent your body makes so try not to feel stressed if she whimpers or cries stay upbeat, do nothing to make her feel her fear is the correct reaction to things.

that as she matures into her first season, and beyond that I may have bitch to bitch aggression.

Possibly, it cannot be foretold, many bitches live happily together, many do and then don't, and some never do get on ever once they hit maturity, which is what it seemed like at the beginning.

If you decide to keep her and it goes bad, yes you probably would have to re-home her, but I guess at least you are giving her the chance to be a 'normal' dog and then go on to find another home.

I guess we all wish we could look into the future for you and see whether she will grow into a little sweetheart having no hierarchy problems in the future and growing to be a well socialised little dog............. or not?

What we can do is offer training techniques and as much help as possible if you keep her, but ultimately it is your time and your life, I don't envy your decision.

Also re introducing the lead, do it at home by letting the lead drag behind her, or what I do with young pups is ensure that I go where pups goes so there is no pressure on the lead.  After they are re happy with that, the lead loose or trailing then encourage her to come where your  going, again avoiding pressure on the lead.

I would not even contemplate walking her on lead out of the street until she was happy with this and also had been carried around the streets for a few weeks getting used to all the strange things.

I would void sympathising too much when you carry her, be very positive and matter of fact.

As they are a small breed, you could take you confident girl out on lead after this while carrying pup, and pretty sure that then popping her down next to her when it's quiet and encouraging her to walk with both of you, she would be happy to follow her friend and you.