Yes Stooge I did :-)  I also asked them to stop sending me annual reminders - that bit hasn't sunk in yet though.

> I also asked them to stop sending me annual reminders

Unless you are titre testing annually then they probably will as some parts of the vaccination recommendation are annual :)

Your experiences are the same as mine, Zan; all the vets do the annual lepto, 3-year core vaccine protocol and have done for years.

>I am amazed at the relationship some of you seem to have with your vets-- as if they are the enemy!! As if there is some sort of conspiracy to make as much money out of you as possible regardless of the benefit to the animals!!!!!

They're really not fussed if people titre test rather than vaccinate, as long as they don't just take a chance.

I am aware of that Stooge and my vet is aware that I am aware of that :-)

Our vets give a full booster at a year old, then lepto annually with everything else every 3 years.

Regarding vets saying if you miss a booster, you need the full puppy course, I queried this with the vet earlier this year - the puppy course is 2 doses of lepto 2-4 weeks apart, and ONE dose of parvo/distemper. Parvo and distemper only need one vaccination whereas the lepto has to have 2 otherwise the dog won't be immune. If you go over 14+ months or so, the lepto needs 2 vaccinations 2-4 weeks apart again to ensure immunity. If you give parvo/distemper too early then you might need a 2nd one just in case the maternal antibodies cancelled out the vaccination, but both the pups I've had vaccinated over the last few years had only lepto in the first vaccination, and then everything in the 2nd vaccination 2 weeks later.

Also with titre testing, this doesn't actually measure immunity - it measures antibodies. If the dog hasn't had a vaccination or been exposed to the virus recently, then there won't be any circulating antibodies so the titre test will come up as low - but that doesn't mean that the dog is not immune, merely that the memory cells haven't been activated.

My vets also have a system where you can pay for lifetime vaccinations with any puppy course or booster, for an extra £60 or so. I now have 4 dogs who will receive free vaccinations for the rest of their lives so my vets aren't going to benefit by giving annual vaccination.

But as I understand it, the lepto only lasts for around 6 months anyway - again rendering the double shot pointless!

In the 2010 WSAVA vaccination guidelines it clearly states that any adult dog that has had the puppy course, will not need a double course at any point no matter how "overdue" it is - it is simply not necessary.  Because the maternal antibodies aren't in play, I also do not believe that any adult needs a double course at all regardless of vaccination history.

I did ask our vet why they still give the full booster every year.  He said it was just easier, administratively:  It was hard to remember whose dog had had what, when, with giving different vaccinations at different years, and just easier to give everything, every year. 

>the puppy course is 2 doses of lepto 2-4 weeks apart, and ONE dose of parvo/distemper. Parvo and distemper only need one vaccination whereas the lepto has to have 2 otherwise the dog won't be immune.

As far as I know, all puppy vaccinations include parvo and distemper in both vaccinations.  Parvo and distemper are given both times incase there are maternal antibodies around when the 1st vaccination is given.  You can verify this for yourself by looking on your vax card, and seeing what letters are written (ie DHPPi is Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvo and Parainfluenza).  Your vet might be doing something his own way, but I'd be surprised if this is in accordance with the advice given by any vaccine manufacturer - as far as I know, they want 2 jabs of everything.  What brand of vaccine does your vet use?  The vaccine manufacturer's advice will be available on Noah Compendium.

This is a more recent 2011 document that confirms http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/2011_VetRecord_EditorialVaccination.pdf

oops had meant to put this one: https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf the updated guideli9nes in USA and Canada to vets.

> He said it was just easier, administratively:  It was hard to remember whose dog had had what, when, with giving different vaccinations at different years, and
> just easier to give everything, every year

!! I'm surprised that you still go to a vet that is that disorganised and can't be bothered to keep appropriate records :( What else can't he be bothered to do ??

My dogs have had their vaccinations from three different vets in the last few years due to house moves etc and all have given mine the correct vaccination (the three year system) nor had any problem sorting out what is required from either their own records or the dogs' records held by me.

My youngest dogs both definitely had only lepto in the first dose, and everything in the 2nd, and this is indeed what it states on their vaccination cards. And the only reason for the double dose 2-4 weeks apart is because lepto works differently being a bacterium, so apparently just giving one dose won't give immunity. This is what I was told by a locally very well respected senior vet.

> !! I'm surprised that you still go to a vet that is that disorganised and can't be bothered to keep appropriate records :-( What else can't he be bothered to do ??
>
>

You beat me to it Daisy!! :-) Whether on paper or computer, nothing could be easier than keeping records to know which vaccination to give. Every dog should have a detailed health record anyway-- or can't this vet be bothered to do that either?????

Josh, it is worth checking with your kennels to see if they would accept a titre test in place of vaccination.  Personally, one of the ways I would choose where to leave my dogs would be heavily influenced by somewhere which did not insist on them being vaccinated.
I can definitely ask them. They are really flexible with his raw diet so I imagine they may be up to a titre test, too.

The Noah compendium for some vaccines (Canigen and Nobivac) does say that only one dose of DHP is needed, but both Lepto and Pi need two for an initial course.

eg Canigen: http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/virbac_limited/canigen_dhppi/-34950.html

"Primary Course Vaccination
A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older. Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose at 10 weeks of age or older is generally recommended. For an optimal response to the parainfluenza component, animals should be vaccinated twice, 2-4 weeks apart with the final vaccination at 10 weeks of age or more.

Booster Vaccination
It is recommended that dogs be revaccinated with canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus every 3 years and against canine parainfluenza virus every year.
It was not possible to produce clinical signs of kennel cough by parainfluenza challenge in adult dogs and duration of immunity could not therefore be demonstrated, but an anamnestic response was seen in dogs given a booster one year after primary vaccination. Revaccination against parainfluenza is recommended prior to exposure to high risk environments (such as kennelling, showing or mixing with dogs of unknown vaccination history).

Vaccinations are a vet's bread and butter and you only have to see how cheap they are in other countries (eg Ireland) to know there is a huge mark-up on them. It has been common knowledge amongst dog folk for many years now that we do not need to booster every year and that is why some vets over-price their titre tests - they know the results invariably reveal that the dog is more than covered for those diseases. The Americans ceased to booster every year some time ago but we are always a long way behind in this country.

I too get very cross when owners are told that they will have to have the whole lot again if they are late getting a booster or the jabs have lapsed. Talk about overloading the immune system and yet another nice little earner for the vet. Not only do they get the full whack again but they now ensure the owner is far too scared of being hit hard in the pocket to let it happen again. My own cross breed puppy was very ill immediately after being vaccinated and, a couple of years later, the breeder of my Ticket collie bitch nearly lost a pup from her next litter after being jabbed - so adverse reactions are not as rare as all that.

> It has been common knowledge amongst dog folk for many years now that we do not need to booster every year

It's not a secret :) Some posters have said they cannot find a vet locally that will adopt the regime as advised by Nobivac for instance but I think in general it is widely available in the UK certainly in my area I don't know of any vets that don't vaccinate for the main core three yearly.

> My own cross breed puppy was very ill immediately after being vaccinated and, a couple of years later, the breeder of my Ticket collie bitch nearly lost a pup from her next litter after being jabbed - so adverse reactions are not as rare as all that.

Other than the proximity of timing do you know the vaccine was the cause?  Puppies get ill anyway so not sure what this tells us but independent trials do tell us it is rare and what are you going to do anyway?  Risk the puppy dying from one of the diseases vaccination will protect them from?
As for the cost of the titre testing they seem reasonable enough from the prices I have seen quoted here to cover the vets appointment time and lab costs.  Similarly the vaccine, it is not just the vaccine you are paying for.

> Other than the proximity of timing do you know the vaccine was the cause?

The timing speaks for itself though - a reaction immediately after is pretty clear IMO.  Remy reacted very badly to his first shot - nearly unconscious, shaking, cold, and I had to rush him straight back in for an antihistamine shot to counteract the vaccine (which then had to be re-done a week later along with a much smaller AH dose to prevent another reaction).

There was no doubt whatsoever that the vaccination was the cause - he was totally healthy when he had it and seriously ill less than half an hour later.  We were back at the vets within the hour, and the vet we saw was certain it was the vaccine too.  The connection was so certain, in fact, that he was used an example of what to look out for post-booster in his puppy class!

> a reaction immediately after is pretty clear IMO.

There is a 1 in 12 chance of getting ill within a month of vaccination.  Even getting ill within a week is only 1 in 52, so that means out of every 52 poorly dogs at least one of them is likely to be within a week of its vaccination. 
That is not to say it never happens but clearly it is not enough to establish cause. 

As the vet was also of the opinion that this was a vaccine reaction in this case Isabel then I think we can accept it was also.

Indeed, however, the vet in Nikita's case and indeed Nikita, still thought it worth continuing with vaccination thus considering the risks of not doing so are greater, so I am not sure that he regarded it as a severe reaction. 

>There was no doubt whatsoever that the vaccination was the cause - he was totally healthy when he had it and seriously ill less than half an hour later.

I think it was one of Marianne's pups (I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong) that was booked in for a first vaccination but they couldn't get to the vet - and that evening the pup had a fit. No doubt that would have been recorded as a vaccine reaction when in fact it would have been completely coincidental.

I am sure it should be accepted that some vaccine reactions are not attributed to the vaccine just as some illnesses that occur shortly afterwards are not necessarily due to the vaccine at all.
I do  have after all a bitch with an auto immune disorder. I do not attribute it to her vaccinations as she has only ever had her puppy ones with no outward sign of any problems, but I will certainly not chance testing her immune system further by boostering and my vet is in total agreement with my decision.

"As for the cost of the titre testing they seem reasonable enough from the prices I have seen quoted here to cover the vets appointment time and lab costs.  Similarly the vaccine, it is not just the vaccine you are paying for."

I have heard £90 or so quoted for titre tests when boosters cost less than half that so it must seem to JP that the booster is the cheaper option. As to my own pup, he was violently car sick immediately afterwards (and as a Dog World reporter at the time he had been very well used to the car, as he came on my jobs with me), very quiet that night, both his prick ears went down in shock and only one came back up the next day.The other stayed permanently down. I was lucky compared to the breeder I spoke about who nearly lost her bitch

Just to add another option, there is a new-ish ELISA kit that a vet nurse can run (it's very very simple, have run several myself), to test for antibody levels in dogs. It might be cheaper, my vet was happy to order the kit in for me but I ended up being able to do it myself so didn't get as far as cost. But a kit that can be run by a nurse, in around 25 mins might be a cheaper option and give you good results. You don't even need a large blood sample, I think it's something like 5ul with pure blood which is barely a drop.

Here is some info:

http://vaccicheck.com/

And some links to articles:

http://www.modernveterinarytherapeutics.com/modern_veterinary_therapeutics_029.htm

That said, a low titre using any method does not mean your dog is not protected, in my understanding, but rather it has not had contact with the antigen recently. The kit can also run 12 samples so your vet shouldn't really charge you for the whole kit unless the whole kit is being used.

> (it's very very simple, have run several myself)

I'm sure it is but who takes the blood sample?

The vet/vet nurse.

Is buying the kit a lot less than the lab charges then?  You are still going to have the appointment charges.
Are you in America?  I am not sure if vet nurses generally do venepuncture here in the UK.

Bloods are not sent to a lab, nor does it need processing of any kind- whole blood samples work. The quantity of blood required is so small that it can be obtained by using one of those little clicker needle things (I don't know what they're called!) in the ear- painless from my experience. I'm not honestly sure how a vet would decide to take a sample for this test, or the cost, I was simply pointing the op in the direction of another option which may be worth investigating. My vet would also not charge for an 'appointment', but then I'm lucky to have a good relationship with my vets and it is not a consultation.

> Bloods are not sent to a lab, nor does it need processing of any kind- whole blood samples work.

Yes, I get that but this does not seem to constitute the greatest cost to people.  How much does the kit cost?

The sample in the video looked like a standard venepuncture bottle to me.  Has your vet/vet nurse actually taken a sample yet and how did they do it?

Like I say, I don't know the cost. I was looking at a 96 well ELISA kit microplate to work with a zoo which was around £200 but that's a lot more samples and for hormone work, but I would imagine less for a smaller kit (which I would not expect to pay full price for as more samples can be run on it even if the vets run duplicates.)
Apologies I misread your first question in the last post! I haven't contacted my vets again about the vaccicheck kit. I ran the test around 2 months ago, was lucky enough to have my uni supply it for me, so I won't look at it again for quite some time. My vet is always interested in new stuff so was keen to have a go but I don't think they will have bought a kit unless someone else has asked for it. So no, I haven't witnessed a vet taking a sample for this kit. Again, just a thought to look into :)

For those who have made disparaging comments about my vet who still gives the full booster every year:  He is an excellent vet, in all other respects, he keeps great records, he goes out of his way to do things the way we ask.  (For eg, he is happy to titre test for us and has found out which lab to use and how much it would cost.)  He does not give OUR dogs the full booster every year, but does for other owners who don't have the knowledge to ask for anything else.

Besides which, the comments are pointless:  Were we to leave this vet, where would we go?  As I said in an earlier post, ALL of the 6 vet practices in my area vaccinate for everything, annually.

No, the sad fact is that vets often don't know any better.  I genuinely believe that my vet cares about the animals under his care and wants to do his best for them.  He just doesn't know better.  It doesn't help that all the practices in my area are doing the same thing - so when a practice compares itself to its neighbours, it only validates what they're doing.

At a recent talk by Jean Dodds up in the north of the UK, there were THREE vets present.  The other people present were pet owners, dog people, etc.  When she recently gave the same talk in the US, the lecture theatre was packed with vets and they had to put video feeds through to 3 other seminar rooms so that everyone who wanted to hear, could.  There were several thousand vets there.  The clear message is the UK vets aren't really interested in all this.

> He just doesn't know better

Aren't you being a little disparaging now :)
I'm sure he does understand, he's a qualified vet and quite capable of evaluating the evidence I am sure, he just sees the risks and benefits in a different way to you.

>The clear message is the UK vets aren't really interested in all this.

Not sure you can draw that conclusion.  Perhaps they prefer to spend their time at seminars with a variety of opinions.

I usually have the initial puppy vacs at 8 and 10 weeks then a full booster after a year. Then we have lepto yearly and the others every three years untill about 8 years then no more. That means that my dogs get no more than 5 vacs in a liftime. My vet follows the every 3 year policy and does lepto each year. They also offer  more regular lepto for dogs who may have a higher than average exposure to rats.
Aileen

> They also offer more regular lepto for dogs who may have a higher than average exposure to rats.

Now that seems a more logical response to the oft cited reason for not give the lepto cover.

Country farm vets !! they call a spade a spade. LOL
Aileen

>At a recent talk by Jean Dodds up in the north of the UK, there were THREE vets present.  The other people present were pet owners, dog people, etc.  When she recently gave the same talk in the US, the lecture theatre was packed with vets and they had to put video feeds through to 3 other seminar rooms so that everyone who wanted to hear, could.  There were several thousand vets there.  The clear message is the UK vets aren't really interested in all this.

Or perhaps they're busy? Webinars are very popular and have a high audience involvement.

>I'm sure he does understand, he's a qualified vet and quite capable of evaluating the evidence I am sure, he just sees the risks and benefits in a different way to you.

Please, pray, do tell me what evidence he is interpreting to justify giving a FULL booster against all diseases, every year? 

I'm getting really sick of people who are just being deliberately argumentative.  I'm not actually saying anything very controversial - nothing which is not said by the WSAVA, nor by the AAHA - nothing which is not even proven by vaccine manufacturers themselves, who have vaccines which are proven to last for 3 years.  There absolutely no basis to pick holes in what I'm saying, unless you want to argue that a dog should receive an annual vaccination for all diseases, every year.  If you don't want to argue that, then please stop being unnecessarily aggressive for the sake of scoring points.  It's very boring.

>Or perhaps they're busy? Webinars are very popular and have a high audience involvement.

Yeah, I guess they could be really busy, reading their veterinary text books and studying the impact of vaccinations on dogs.  I'm sure, UK vets might well be far more busy than US vets.  Or perhaps they ALL have sick wives or children, who they need to stay home for.  Or perhaps ALL their cars broke down and they were unable to attend. 

Sorry, it's getting ridiculous now.

> Please, pray, do tell me what evidence he is interpreting to justify giving a FULL booster against all diseases, every year?

The studies that indicate the level of risk.  He will be weighing up whatever other reasons he has, getting a better deal on vaccine not licenced on the more recent regimes for instance and doing what he thinks best for his customers and his practice.

> I'm getting really sick of people who are just being deliberately argumentative

Please don't accuse people of being deliberately argumentative just because they have a diffferent opinion to you.  I think someone, not sure if you was you, did this in another recent discussion.  I think people should remember discussion is not obligatory :)

> Yeah, I guess they could be really busy, reading their veterinary text books and studying the impact of vaccinations on dogs.  I'm sure, UK vets might well be far more busy than US vets.  Or perhaps they ALL have sick wives or children, who they need to stay home for.  Or perhaps ALL their cars broke down and they were unable to attend. 
>
> Sorry, it's getting ridiculous now.

That is rediculous :)  Maybe they just don't see the need to go to her seminar.  Her work and opinions are very well publicised on the net.
They won't be looking in text books, far more likely they will be following what is discussed in the veterinary journals which will give them a much broader perspective that one person view.

Right this thread is going nowhere other than round in circles  so .....