Hi All,

Nando should be due his first yearly booster next month (or the month after depending on whether it goes from the date of his first puppy vacc or his second.)

I was intending on titre testing and then boosting for what he needs, however everyone seems to have different opinions on this.

My first question is.. how much does a titre test cost on average?

My SECOND question is... what do you do with your dogs? I am really against yearly boosters for the sake of them and from my understanding the lepto vacc only covers him for half of the types of leptospirosis around anyway?

Looking forward to your opinions as I am really against vaccination boosters from what I have read.

Josh

My dogs have always had a booster of some sort every year. We've had a couple of dogs at work with lepto - unboostered - and it's not an easy illness to treat because it's transmissable to humans. We've never seen a case of disease in dogs which have been boostered according to the recommendations, but we have (both lepto and parvo) in dogs which only had the puppy vaccinations.

>My first question is.. how much does a titre test cost on average?

The current lab charge from Glasgow Vet School is here; there will also be your vet's fee for taking the blood and sending it.

I was thinking of titre testing, mainly for parvo because a friend's dog who walked in the same area I walk Nando died of Parvo. This was 3/4 years ago now, however I know how long the virus can linger for and there was a second dog with parvo in my area not too long ago.

I didn't want to just blindly boost for it, but wanted to test to check his immunity for it.

If this is his 1st year booster (ie his first booster after puppy shots), then I would probably get it done - it will be a full booster if with Nobivac - and I wouldn't titre test. 

I would then not vaccinate any further.  If I freaked out and got worried in a few years' time, and wanted to check, I would go and get a titre test done at that point.

The reasoning for this is that sometimes some component of the puppy shots doesn't take, due to maternal antibodies.  This is more likely if his 2nd shot was at 10wks than at 12wks.  (Since the older he was for the 2nd puppy shot, the less likely any maternal antibodies would have been around interfering.) 

Some people, though, would be titre testing at this point - so it's up to you. 

The good news is that if there are dogs with parvo in your area, it is GOOD for Nando, because coming across it will ensure he maintains a good antibody response to it, since his body is being challenged.  IE- he is more likely to have good antibodies against parvo than a dog who lives in an area where there is no parvo.

Every dog I have ever owned since 1981 has had a booster every year for life.

I would definitely get this his first booster done as there is a chance that the 1st lot didn't take because of maternal antibodies. After that l would titre test every 3 years. There are a couple of points to note though, titre testing is more expensive (and more upsetting for the dog) than simply giving boosters. Also boarding kennels won't accept a titre test, they require the vaccination card to be signed. Also if your dog is insured and vaccinations are not up to date then the insurance won't pay for any illnesses that could have been vaccinated against so there is a lot to think about.

>titre testing is more expensive (and more upsetting for the dog) than simply giving boosters.

That is definitely true.  Which is why I wouldn't (personally) titre test every year - or even every 3.  But only if I wanted to check.  I would definitely want to titre test around age 7yrs, to be sure the dog is still covered going into later years.  But, used in this way, titre testing is actually cheaper than an annual vaccination.  (Since you're not doing it as often.)

>Also boarding kennels won't accept a titre test, they require the vaccination card to be signed.

That's not always true - it depends on the kennels concerned.  The kennels we use accept evidence of a titre test and a letter from the vet to say it's been done, in lieu of vaccination.  It's worth checking with the kennels concerned and asking around to see what the policy is with other kennels.

>Also if your dog is insured and vaccinations are not up to date then the insurance won't pay for any illnesses that could have been vaccinated against

That is true, but almost no dogs have contracted distemper or hepatitis (2 of the core 3 vaccines) for a long time now.  It's mainly parvo which would fall into this category.  Possibly lepto.  In short:  Amongst the range of health problems and conditions a dog can develop, it's highly unlikely to contract one of these.  And, anyway, we almost KNOW that it won't contract anything - because core vaccines last at least 7yrs, and we're titre testing to check.  So it's not going to get anything... (Except perhaps lepto.  Then again, the lepto vaccine only covers 2 of the 4 strains of lepto, so if your dog contracts the strains not covered by vaccination, you'd even be covered for that.)  We don't want our dogs unprotected against disease any more than anyone else or the vaccine company does.  So if we thought there was a risk of them contracting something by not vaccinating, then we'd be vaccinating. 

> In short:  Amongst the range of health problems and conditions a dog can develop, it's highly unlikely to contract one of these.

But then the risks from vaccination are very low too. 
I think Chaumsong's advise is very good if you are concerned about these things but would also add that venepuncture is not without risk either together with the stress and the additional cost so, personally, I would just continue with the recommended vaccination regime and not lose any sleep over it.

Would definitely have the first annual boosters done for the reasons already covered by Rabid :-)

>But then the risks from vaccination are very low too. 

That depends on who you ask - not in my book, they're not low, no.

When the drug manufacturers have tested and proven the core vaccine as being efficient for a minimum of three years (they didn't test beyond that - wonder why eh?!) - why is it wise to "torment" the immune system annually?  My own feeling is that in future this will be regarded in the same way as over use of antibiotics and the problems that has left us with.

Added to that - I lost just a little faith with my vets knowing they still advise annual vaccinations for all dogs at our surgery and were tightlipped to say the least when i asked them about length of immunity.

>That depends on who you ask - not in my book, they're not low, no.

After 6 years in a vet practice we've seen one single possible vaccine reaction. Just one out of the hundreds and hundreds of vaccinations done each year. So yes, the risk is low.

> If this is his 1st year booster (ie his first booster after puppy shots), then I would probably get it done - it will be a full booster if with Nobivac - and I wouldn't titre test. 
>
> I would then not vaccinate any further.  If I freaked out and got worried in a few years' time, and wanted to check, I would go and get a titre test done at that point.
>
>

ditto, this is what I have been doing since 2006, prior to that the others were being done every three years after first booster.  Only my first one ever had yearly boosters. 

Even before more people were questioning regular boosters it seems those in dogs, especially those I know in Obedience circles never boostered after the first booster and that's in 40 years of dog ownership. 

These have usually been multi-dog households who didn't ever board their dogs.

I think you've just made my mind up chaumsong, he goes in kennels so you're right, he is going to need all his vaccs. He doesn't fair well at the vets, so perhaps a titre test isn't the best idea, either.

I'm still really grateful if anyone else has anything else to add on the topic though :)

> I think Chaumsong's advise is very good

Yes - I agree :) My two (14 and 10) have had boosters every year and are both in excellent health, never had any problems. They are both due to have their boosters in September and my 14 year old will have his unless my vet disagrees - they only have the full boosters every third year. They do go into kennels otherwise I would probably not have the older dog done now.

im if you want to test ive read that there are some bording kennels that will acept the test results.

My vet charged me £69 total for the test for all of them and conseltation and just payed $45 for another this week but i think that one was just for distemper. But my vet sais they nolonger do a distemper only vac, so if you dogs test came back as everything excpet distemper you still have to have the 3 in one (like mine girl did)

> almost no dogs have contracted distemper or hepatitis (2 of the core 3 vaccines) for a long time now.  It's mainly parvo which would fall into this category.  Possibly lepto.  In short:  Amongst the range of health problems and conditions a dog can develop, it's highly unlikely to contract one of these.

The reason these diseases aren't around a lot these days is because most dogs are vaccinated. I am worried about the current trend to stop vaccinations because of fear of vaccination problems, which are very rare. If you don't vaccinate you are relying on a firewall of vaccinated dogs around you. The more people who stop vaccinating the more that firewall diminishes and the more chance of these diseases making a comeback big time. If you had ever seen a dog with distemper, parvo, hepatitis or lepto you would vaccinate your dog according to your trusted vet's recommendations-- in my case that is lepto every year, and the full vaccine every third.

> Even before more people were questioning regular boosters it seems those in dogs, especially those I know in Obedience circles never boostered after the first booster and that's in 40 years of dog ownership. 

I have not given my dogs boosters since the early 90's. I do give the puppy vacs. Never had one catch anything.

> I am worried about the current trend to stop vaccinations because of fear of vaccination problems, which are very rare. If you don't vaccinate you are relying on >a firewall of vaccinated dogs around you. The more people who stop vaccinating the more that firewall diminishes and the more chance of these diseases >making a comeback big time

Hence why there is a problem with Whooping Cough ATM :( (Human babies not puppies :) )

>If you don't vaccinate you are relying on a firewall of vaccinated dogs around you.

There's currently an outbreak of whooping cough in adults as well as children because the vaccination rate in children has fallen and the immunity given by the childhood vaccinations has faded. Vaccination immunity is not lifelong.

I have not given my dogs boosters since the early 90's. I do give the puppy vacs. Never had one catch anything.

I bought a puppy from a breeder who didn't booster her bitches. My puppy, and several others in the litter, came down with distemper before they were old enough to be vaccinated. Mine died on her first birthday, having developed brain damage as a result of the distemper.

Next door's Staffy pup died of parvo. The little crossbreed we were getting my mother in law died of parvo before we could collect her from the rescue kennels. The Staffy cross I had dumped on my doorstep one Christmas Day died of parvo in the stray kennels I had to hand it to.

which is why I always do puppy vacs

> which is why I always do puppy vacs

and first year booster in case any part of the initial course didn't take.

I used to have a homoeopathic vet, and even he advised to always have the first yearly booster done, even if you weren't going to continue with them.

>After 6 years in a vet practice we've seen one single possible vaccine reaction. Just one out of the hundreds and hundreds of vaccinations done each year.

Most vaccine reactions are not reported.  They do not always occur immediately after innoculation.  They can be responsible for systemic conditions, or for conditions which are put down to an allergy or exposure to environmental toxin like a pesticide. 

Conditions obviously need to be recognised by the vet as vaccine reactions.  The vet, who is almost always pro vaccination and administered the vaccine, is not going to be willingly accrediting anything to a vaccine reaction if it might possibly be something else.  Many clients don't report reactions to the vet.  And so on.

>The reason these diseases aren't around a lot these days is because most dogs are vaccinated.

No one is suggesting not vaccinating.  I wouldn't do something which would leave my dogs open to catching a contagious disease, of course I want them protected.  But they will be!

When vaccinations last at least 7.5yrs for the core 3 diseases, vaccinating annually is (IMO) insane and not for the health of the animal.  We don't go to the doctor every year to repeat the entire range of our baby vaccinations, do we?  What kind of madness is this??  And if we want to check, we can with a titre test.

Josh, it is worth checking with your kennels to see if they would accept a titre test in place of vaccination.  Personally, one of the ways I would choose where to leave my dogs would be heavily influenced by somewhere which did not insist on them being vaccinated.

> in my case that is lepto every year, and the full vaccine every third.

Lepto only lasts 7 months, so your dog's already unprotected for 5 months of the year - and also only covers 2 of the 4 strains.  A friend's dog caught lepto despite being up to date on vaccinations.  The vaccine is no guarantee, and the risk of giving it is great because it is responsible for more side effects than any of the others.

> The vet, who is almost always pro vaccination and administered the vaccine, is not going to be willingly accrediting anything to a vaccine reaction if it might possibly be something else. 

On the other hand, reading some posts in the past there seems little more evidence required than an illness occured with a half year of a vaccine to lay the blame there.

>Conditions obviously need to be recognised by the vet as vaccine reactions.

Vets are actually better able to recognise genuine reactions than the average owner.

>The vet, who is almost always pro vaccination and administered the vaccine, is not going to be willingly accrediting anything to a vaccine reaction if it might possibly be something else.

Do you really distrust vets so much? If so why go to them? 

>Many clients don't report reactions to the vet.

Caring owners will take their pet to the vet when they notice they're unwell. 

>of course I want them protected.  But they will be!

Because you're relying on other people's dogs being vaccinated and keeping the disease at bay.

>Lepto only lasts 7 months, so your dog's already unprotected for 5 months of the year - and also only covers 2 of the 4 strains.

7 months protection is better than none.

>Vets are actually better able to recognise genuine reactions than the average owner.

Not in my experience:  Vets don't live with a dog 24/7 or know what is normal for that individual dog.  In order to recognise a reaction, they need to be able to 1) know about it (and as I said, many reactions are not even reported by owners or identified by owners) and 2) attribute it to the vaccine.

>Do you really distrust vets so much? If so why go to them? 

That's a bit of a silly question.  I go to the vet when my dogs are sick and I need treatment.  That has nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of UK vets are still giving ALL vaccinations, EVERY year.  This is now KNOWN AND PROVEN to be unnecessary and potentially harmful - vets in America are way ahead, here, and do not give all vaccinations every year.  When there is then a potential benefit to the vet, for wanting to continue to give annual vaccinations, then yes, I am sceptical.  I am sceptical when I can see there is a great benefit (such as a third of all income from vaccinations and tick/worming treatments) to the vet. 

>Caring owners will take their pet to the vet when they notice they're unwell. 

Even if the 'unwell' is the dog being a bit itchy - not unduly so, just slightly.  Or a bit more sleepy and subdued.  If, 2 yrs later, the dog develops and immune-system condition, is that going to be traced back to the vaccine which was given 2 years earlier?

>Because you're relying on other people's dogs being vaccinated and keeping the disease at bay.

No, because SCIENCE has PROVEN with many, many papers, that the core 3 vaccines are effective for at least 7.5yrs.  As I keep saying. 

>7 months protection is better than none.

Sure, if you want to risk the great number of side effects which occur as a result of the leptospirosis vaccine and you accept that 2 of the 4 strains are also not covered - plus the fact that it is not commonly given in the US as a vaccine, despite their having similar incidences of lepto.  Strange that, how they're prepared to risk their dogs lives.

> No, because SCIENCE has PROVEN with many, many papers, that the core 3 vaccines are effective for at least 7.5yrs

As I understand it it has been found that some dogs maintain that level of immunity.

>the vast majority of UK vets are still giving ALL vaccinations, EVERY year.

What is your evidence for this? All vets are required to show evidence of CPD (Continued Personal Development) in keeping up to date with the latest findings. The three-year repeat of core vaccines has been around for getting on for a decade and the majority of vets comply with this.

>When there is then a potential benefit to the vet, for wanting to continue to give annual vaccinations, then yes, I am sceptical.

Why be sceptical when they're obeying their governing body in complying with the manufacturer's recommendations?

>>Caring owners will take their pet to the vet when they notice they're unwell. 
>Even if the 'unwell' is the dog being a bit itchy - not unduly so, just slightly.  Or a bit more sleepy and subdued.

Yes, the caring ones do. The uncaring ones don't take their dog to the vet until the mammary tumour (for instance) is the size of a tennis ball, or the dog is virtually unconscious.

>No, because SCIENCE has PROVEN with many, many papers, that the core 3 vaccines are effective for at least 7.5yrs

If that were so then every titre test would show high immunity - and they don't.

>if you want to risk the great number of side effects which occur as a result of the leptospirosis vaccine

The risk of side-effects is less than the risk of the disease, which is unpleasant for the animal, difficult to treat and transmissable to humans. So yes, I'll do it.

>Even if the 'unwell' is the dog being a bit itchy - not unduly so, just slightly.  Or a bit more sleepy and subdued.

I forgot to add; a pup being a bit sleepy after its vaccinations, especially the first, isn't an adverse reaction; it's a normal reaction to the body being challenged and creating antibodies to that challenge. Far from being an adverse reaction, it's a sign that the vaccination was needed.

>As I understand it it has been found that some dogs maintain that level of immunity.

ALL dogs maintain it for at least 3 years.  Annual vaccinations are unnecessary and harmful.

>The risk of side-effects is less than the risk of the disease,

Quite simply, this is rubbish.  The animal can be dead from side-effects to a vaccine.  How can you say that the risk of vaccine side-effects are less than the risk of a disease which is only carried by rats in specific areas, a vaccine which is not even given to dogs routinely in the US because it is deemed unnecessary, which is responsible for more side effects than any of the others and which doesn't even adequately protect against the disease it is allegedly vaccinating for?!?

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you and your blind defense of vets.  I'm very glad to hear that, in your opinion (based on what?) most UK vets are giving 3 yr vaccines in accordance with the most recent advice.  My own personal experience is that none of the 6 veterinary practices where I live are doing that.  And I don't live in an out of the way place with rural traditional vets, but in an urban city centre, where all vets are still giving a full booster every year.

I'm really quite tired of this now, since it's obvious that in some petty way you're going to refute anything I say, but here is some further reading for anyone following this who would like to know more:

Video from Dr Jean Dodds, expert in this field and the author of many academic papers on the subject:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2K-OPBFqWs
Another video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE2gM90bLFw

Interview with Dodds:  http://www.ourlifeplusdogs.com/2012/05/01/jean-dodds-talks-about-vaccines-for-dogs-naturally-magazine/
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=338601983770

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

http://www.pethealthandnutritioncenter.com/natural-pet-health-education/general-interest/are-you-over-vaccinating-your-animals/

Leptp:  http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/lepto.html

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/

An example of an enlightened vet practice in London where dogs are titre tested before determining whether they need a booster or not:  http://www.hydeparkvet.co.uk/services/vaccination.html

Have just checked my vets website - they are still recommending all dogs have an annual booster :-(

which is why I always do puppy vacs

Which, lilyowen, means that had I bought my puppy from you, from an unboostered bitch, it could  have had the exact same outcome -dead from the repercussions of distemper. Clearly puppy vaccs wasn't enough for the dam of that litter as she did not pass on any immunity and pups got ill at 7 weeks. This breeder DID do vaccinations as puppies of her own dogs but not after that.

Have just checked my vets website - they are still recommending all dogs have an annual booster :-(

But if you look at your vaccination cards, you will notice they are not vaccinated for the SAME things every year. Some are less frequent.

I'm still being sent annual reminders, in fact I phoned them and asked them to stop.

Worse still they are still telling people that dogs with 'late' boosters need a full course!!!

> This breeder DID do vaccinations as puppies of her own dogs but not after that.

and many puppy vaccinations don't take due to maternal antibody interference by giving them too early, so I agree the first booster is needed for the dogs where the puppy shots didn't take, like the lady who posts here whose vaccinated pup developed parvo at four months.  After recovery titre tests showed she had no antibodies to what she had been vaccinated against at 8 and 10 weeks, only to parvo, which of course she would have, having suffered from it.

It's the reason in other countries they advise the primary course finishes after 16 weeks, and a booster is advised at 6 months, all to make sure the vaccines take in the first place.

There will also always be rare animals where a vaccine does not take at all no matter how often ti is given.

Was the bitch, when the pup died, titre tested to show she had immunity

>>As I understand it it has been found that some dogs maintain that level of immunity.
>ALL dogs maintain it for at least 3 years. 

Apart from the ones which contract the disease (like the pup at an agility show that had parvo in the dog press recently) despite vaccinatiaons, and the ones where titre testing shows a lack of immunity.

>>The risk of side-effects is less than the risk of the disease,
>Quite simply, this is rubbish.

Not at all - it is fact. The side-effects can be serious, but the risk is low.

>How can you say that the risk of vaccine side-effects are less than the risk of a disease which is only carried by rats in specific areas,

In specific areas? What nonsense; it's considered endemic in the rat population, and there are about 50 cases in humans each year.

> Apart from the ones which contract the disease (like the pup at an agility show that had parvo in the dog press recently) despite vaccinatiaons, and the ones where titre testing shows a lack of immunity.
>
>

and that is most likely because the jabs were given too early to combat maternal antibody interference, and one reason I will not in future start puppy vaccs before 10 weeks to finish at 12, which is what we used to do when I first had dogs 20 + years ago and only changed about 10 years ago (might be more). 

But if you look at your vaccination cards, you will notice they are not vaccinated for the SAME things every year. Some are less frequent.

They are most certainly not vaccinating my dogs for the same things every year, Goldmali - I told them years ago that my dogs did not need that.  They have, however told me fairly recently that my dogs would need to start the vaccination process from scratch as they are no longer immune.  Not sure how they would know that since they hadnt titre tested.

I have an eleven yr old goldie with severe arthritis and two HWV.  The goldie will not be vaccinated again and the younger two, 5yrs and coming up to 2yrs were both vaccinated as pups (later than my vet usually does the first jab) and again on the first anniversary of their puppy course.  I fully support the need for the majority of the dog population to be covered in this way.  I will not booster them until a titre test tells me it is required for the welfare of my dogs

> Worse still they are still telling people that dogs with 'late' boosters need a full course!!!

That is a HUGE bugbear of mine and I rant about it often!  Just a cursory glance at the science behind the double puppy course will tell even the thickest of people that no adult dog needs a double course even if they are "overdue".  It really, REALLY does my head in!

> ALL dogs maintain it for at least 3 years.  Annual vaccinations are unnecessary and harmful.

I wouldn't argue with that although the risk would appear to be very low as for decades dogs were vaccinated annually for the whole lot without much evidence of harm.
If anyone was particularly concerned I am sure they could find a vet using one of vaccines from a manufacturer who has updated their recommended routines.

> Not sure how they would know that since they hadnt titre tested.
> I will not booster them until a titre test tells me it is required for the welfare of my dogs

I'm confused, are you titre testing or not?

>But if you look at your vaccination cards, you will notice they are not vaccinated for the SAME things every year. Some are less frequent.

No, I think you're misunderstanding me:  All the 6 vets in my area vaccinate for ALL diseases, every year.  This includes:  parvo, distemper, hepatitis, lepto, parainfluenza and coronavirus.  Annually.

I'm confused, are you titre testing or not?

Yes I have titre tested the older dogs and will of course test the youngster.

The vets I referred to did not at the time offer/encourage titre testing so I had it done elsewhere - hence Not sure how they would know that since they hadnt titre tested

I won't subject my poorly older dog to another test since I won't be getting her vaccinated now anyway

> so I had it done elsewhere

That should be easy to sort them.  Just give them a copy of the report and they can update your dogs medical records accordingly.

> No, I think you're misunderstanding me:  All the 6 vets in my area vaccinate for ALL diseases, every year.  This includes:  parvo, distemper, hepatitis, lepto, parainfluenza and coronavirus.  Annually.

That amazes me. All the vets I know recommend an annual booster, but it is just lepto every year, and the full one only every three years. Even the little rural vet in my nearest town.
I have run a boarding kennels for more than twenty years, and insist on annual boosters. My clients come from two big cities and several rural towns and they all have vets who vaccinate as I describe. I know this because I am interested in these things and discuss it with my clients, and see it on their vaccination cards. One or two vet practices that I know of have been a bit slow in leaving behind the full annual booster, but they are all there now. My own vet has only done the full booster every three years for a very long time-- I would think about 10 years at least.
In all these years I have never come across a bad reaction to vaccination, although I have known one or two mild reactions which may or may not have been down to the vaccination-- e.g.one dog who always got colitis for a short while afterwards, but he was prone to colitis anyway, and a westie who usually gets a mild flare up of itchiness after vaccination, but she gets flare ups at other times too. Nothing that would ever make me, or the owners concerned, want to stop vaccinating and risk far worse.
The worst reaction, which may or may not have been linked to vaccination, that I have known was one of my own dogs, a 9 year old GSD bitch. Her lifelong friend, another GSD had to be pts because of cancer and she was grieving very badly, and under a lot of stress when her booster fell due. She was done and not long after developed an auto-immune problem. I think in her case perhaps the vaccination did play a part, but only because she was already so stressed. We got her stabilised and my vet and I came to the decision not to risk any more vaccinations for her just in case, so she was not vaccinated again--lived a happy and full life till the age of 14. That was a single decision based on her health. Even if I knew for a fact that her booster had partly triggered her illness it still wouldn't stop me vaccinating all my other dogs annually.

I am amazed at the relationship some of you seem to have with your vets-- as if they are the enemy!! As if there is some sort of conspiracy to make as much money out of you as possible regardless of the benefit to the animals!!!!! I am choosy about the vets I use, and I like them to be prepared to discuss things in depth with me,listen to what I have to say, and explain what they are doing and why clearly to me. I have a wonderful vet who ticks all these boxes and more, and over the last 30 years of my life with animals I have not found it hard to find vets like these. Many of them have become my friends. If you don't like your vet-- change.