Yes, I think it's something like £35. Otherwise poor losers would be free to make spiteful unjustified complaints about their competitors.

>

> They can't Gwen. You now cannot claim a Champion title in those 15 breeds WITHOUT having passed a vet check first. Even if you've won 3 tickets, if none have been with BOB you will not have seen the vet, and so you have to arrange for the vet check to take place at a show before the title will be confirmed.

Since replying to this helpful reply from Goldmali yesterday I have been  pondering on the various ramifications of this.  Obviously the  way the rule stands now, the BoB at each Ch show has to have a vet check  - so going back to my previous scenario we could end up with multi CC winners who do not become champions if a) they never submit for Vet check or b) are BoB winners who constantly fail (I know it is unlikley an owner would keep on going, but possible).  We can also end up with newly made up champions passed under 3 vets, who are then failed by a 4th or 5th?  What about single breed shows, I have always assumed the rule is for General Ch shows, but do single breed or single group Ch shows also have to have BoBs checked?  I can imagine a scenario where the vets who become known to be more breed friendly/knowledgeable are followed round by exhibitors wanting a title vet confirmed, or simply a chance at BoB, increasing entries at some shows and leaving others empty of the 15 breeds.

Still wonder what happens to the judges.  I remember a Steve Dean quote about this being as much to make the judges tow the line (not the exact wording :) )  Are the ones with vet failed BoB going to have to resit a seminar/exam?  Have an intensive training session?    Waht if a judge refuses to award BoB?  What if they just withold the CCs?  I wonder how many of these scenarios the KC considered before drafting the rule?

Yup, I thought it was £20, buy been told its now £34 +£1, sorry a certain number wony type!

> Still wonder what happens to the judges.  I remember a Steve Dean quote about this being as much to make the judges tow the line (not the exact wording

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=3495&d=pndpr&h=pnhpr&f=pnfpr

Prof Dean's statement about clamping down on judges from January 2011.  Obviously the KC missed the mark on this one with the lame Border Collie getting G4 ! 

The Border Collie BOB was totally sound during breed judging.

So is it that bad that there are that many potential spiteful bad losers ?

>So is it that bad that there are that many potential spiteful bad losers ?

Who knows? Read any forum or FB group and you'll find grumblers. It makes perfect sense to do your best to ensure that only genuine grievances are considered, not petty timewasting ones. "Put your money where your mouth is", literally!

Ok so give me another example of where you have to pay to make a complaint.

All that the fee is doing is encouraging bad behaviour as people will get away with it .

> Ok so give me another example of where you have to pay to make a complaint.

> All that the fee is doing is encouraging bad behaviour as people will get away with it .

I believe the fee is refunded if the complaint is upheld.

> Ok so give me another example of where you have to pay to make a complaint.
>
> All that the fee is doing is encouraging bad behaviour as people will get away with it . <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

poultry shows its normal to have to pay up to make offical complaint- you get it back if complaint upheld. stops lot of malicious trouble making

That is good but what sort of evidence and how many get up held as wonder how many people complained and subsequently got their money back ? I bet the judges word is taken as the main core of evidence as they are the ones that are put in the position of being responsible for the class or are the other people who help in the admin side independent to the judge and can also provide evidence against the complainants claim ?

Is also photographic or video evidence allowed ?

Ok so give me another example of where you have to pay to make a complaint.


The GCCF -except there the fee is considerably higher!

I was going to say, dog lame, wins class or does better than this. Complaint goes in, how on earth can they confirm that the dog was lame on that day? Do you need more people to complain, so more cash to be handed over? The only way a lame dog can be questionned is if its seen by the relevant bodies at the right time. You have video evidence, who is to say this hasn't been doctored?

That is what I was thinking Sue. Is there not a formal process to follow dependant on the type of complaint ?

How many shows within the UK are held ?

>All that the fee is doing is encouraging bad behaviour as people will get away with it .

Not if the 'bad behaviour' is genuinely serious. If it's a little niggle (and we've all seen things that aren't done how we think is right!) then having to 'put up or shut up' means that grumbles don't get blown out of proportion, because mud sticks, even on the innocent.

So what is classed as a little nighle compared to something more serious and is everybody aware of this or it is down to personal interpretation ?

Very few things can be defined exactly! Almost everything is down to personal interpretation, so the application of common sense in the form of a financial penalty for spite can prevent this particular way of nobbling your rivals. :-) Not everyone is high-minded with a sense of fair play.

> The Border Collie BOB was totally sound during breed judging.

Whole thread on it here.  No the majority of posters are not "show" people, though a couple do show other breeds at Champ level very successfuly, but they can recognise lameness when they see it.  Most noticeably the dog was even very lame in walk.  There is a video of it and it is very clear.  Sound in the breed judging but lame in the group, the judge should have picked up on it.  At first it almost looked like it was moving short on the LF as it was pulling away from the handler and the crowd, but on the straight moving out for the judge it was very obvious.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=521530

>There is a video of it and it is very clear. 

Is there a link to the video?

Once had a report to me that a dog had been harshly handled in the ring, I went and checked with the judge and steward if they had seen harsh handling, they had not, asked some of those at the ring side, they had not either so I went back to the complainant to ask if they wanted to report it, they said yes I then told them they would need to find someone else who had witnessed this harsh handling and put the deposit down, they changed their mind. I was sure in my mind this was just a bit of poor sportsmanship but I don't know as the matter stopped there as far as I was concerned.

Had this gone to the KC I don't think it would have been considered without a witness but a letter may have been sent to the person being accused but again I do not know.

Dogs can and do go lame between the breed class and the group, it has happened to me, but it is wrong for the group judge to place a dog even if they know the story behind the limp - it is difficult to miss an uneven gate and I can only think a judge is not concentrating if they do but it is entirely possible I have missed a limp as well because if you don't see it you don't know you missed it.

I am aware of various convesations about the BC being lame in the group in various palces and numerous forums and I have no issue with that being the case however you did query his soundness in the breed judging and I was answering that part of your post. That he got placed while unsound in the group is entirely the judge concerned's responsibility.

The KC will look at video evidence as this was used when a well known judge was fined after being less than throrough when going over dogs and paying little attention to them moving at a champ show.

> The KC will look at video evidence as this was used when a well known judge was fined after being less than throrough when going over dogs and paying little attention to them moving at a champ show.

The Crufts youtube video has vanished of the pastoral group for some reason, though the other groups are still up there.  Wonder if the dog slipped on the carpeting that was very slick this year?  Could easily happen between being in the breed ring and getting into the group, even in the holding area.  Having had that happen to a dog of mine a few years ago, he went lame behind and I was half way around the arena before it really manifested into an odd hop on the RR.  I did withdraw but someone who saw him at the time said it was not every stride, and could have carried on.  It turned out he had torn the femoral ligaments.

Going back to the Sussex spaniel we saw at Crufts it really looked like it was on its last legs the poor thing so how on earth would that be allowed ? It was just a slight lameness it looked severally arthritic and struggling to move . It did look like a veteran as the other dogs all seem very sound and were moving very freely at a good pace. Several on lookers were commenting the same as we were discussing.

Sorry iPhone it should have said wasn't  a slight lameless and it didnt look like a veteran

> The KC will look at video evidence as this was used when a well known judge was fined after being less than throrough when going over dogs and paying little attention to them moving at a champ show

Are you saying the KC are already looking into this?  After you said it was being talked about on various forums I googled "border collie Crufts" and was amazed how much attention this has had, initially thought it may be just the equine folks being extra picky!

Keep us informed on the outcome.