I understand that the Clumber (non) BoB not only has excellent health test results but also field awards and has won under an incredible array of international judges.

I don't understand why they can't just bring in that to be able to compete all the dogs have to have all the relevant health checks for that particular breed, that way surely all dogs would be fit for purpose and healthy then surely all breeds would be healthy, more of joe public would be inclined to buy pedigree dogs instead of going to puppy farms NAND back street breeders.

i see the clumbers was judged by one of our top all rounders.... mmmmmmmmm

Google the dog that is the non BOB Clumber (not done the others) and look at the photos of it face on and see what you think..

>> if the dog is not fit enough to go in the group it should have the CC removed too
> Non shower/breeder here :-) Surely this would be the end of this dog's showing career ??

more importently I would hope its the end of its breeding career.

and about time that all dogs that breeders wish to use for breeding only get ability to register from a pair that have both passed health checks that are a) relevent to their breed, b) relevent to living as a dog- ie ability to do dog behaviours pain free

was the Clumber bob the dog or the bitch? Looked at pictures of the bitch and thought her eyes looked awful...

It was the bitch which failed the BOB assessment.. Multi ch too

And she has an ATC number so obviously an overseas competitor. But the owner is rather miffed. But What was the judge  thinking putting up a dog with eyes like that? There can be no excuse.

> n addition to this I think there should be some kind of submittal by a vet before registration of pups to confirm general health of the parent,

I believe the bulldog council have such a scheme running, but most bulldogs never seem to have even the basic BVA tests of Hips and eyes, and based on USA OFA statistics the bulldog as a breed has the worst hip status of any breed.

Heredity being what it is you can't guarantee, that the less exaggerated parents will produce puppies that are all not exaggerated.

Certainly if things do not show changes in conformation in the show ring over the next 10 years on a voluntary basis (the selection criteria of breeders over two or three generations, then perhaps a vet check of parents before they are allowed to be bred from might be the next step.

I suspect that would cause the numbers registered with the KC to drop dramatically,a s the breed is very popular among those breeding purely for the Pet market because for their popularity and high selling price. 

I also suspect that the non show breeders will continue to reproduce what they have..

> Certainly if things do not show changes in conformation in the show ring over the next 10 years on a voluntary basis (the selection criteria of breeders over two or three generations, then perhaps a vet check of parents before they are allowed to be bred from might be the next step.
>
> I suspect that would cause the numbers registered with the KC to drop dramatically,a s the breed is very popular among those breeding purely for the Pet market because for their popularity and high selling price. 
>
>

that would be a lot better- would make it that a kennel club registered dog is one really worth going for- a mark of quality instead of joke it is now. would make it hell of a lot easier for Joepublic to buy a likely healthy dog

Perhaps it was just lame or off colour on the day?

The Bulldog on this video is certainly a bit cleaner through the head and has 6 CC's, so if her owner/breeders can do it then there must be dogs out there to be bred from to produce her!

> Perhaps it was just lame or off colour on the day?

the judges and vets can only judge what is presented to them on the day- not what it was like last week, not what it could be like if thinner/fatter/more muscled etc- only what it looks like in that snap shot in time so I'm afraid if its limping or ill on day it should not go forward to represent a breed.

I am led to believe (dont shoot me over this) that the Peke and the Bulldog failed for eye issues.  The vet shone little lights in their eyes and didnt like what they saw.  Hence the judge couldnt of picked up on any problem, also led to believe that this eye test wasnt one approved by the KC for ruling over Best of Breed tests but ones the vet chose to do.  How much of this is accurate I am not sure.

Havent heard why about the Clumber at this stage.

The Bulldog on this video is certainly a bit cleaner through the head and has 6 CC's, so if her owner/breeders can do it then there must be dogs out there to be bred from to produce her!

Not a fan of smooshie faced breeds (purely based on the drool factor) :-) but that one looked lovely and for once you couldnt see that the eyelid hanging down the face, when walking into  LKA last year there was 2 frenchies walking in before me and their back legs barely touched the floor and you could of use them to fire arrows they were so bowed, not a pretty sight.

The clumber was failed because of entropian, they have a copy of the cert on dogworld website.

> obviously an overseas competitor

Unfortuantely exageration seems to be the name of the game in many overseas country even more than in UK.

There are also ear issues mentioned on the report.

>The clumber was failed because of entropian, they have a copy of the cert on dogworld website.

You didn't need to be a vet to see that here eyes were not right. Shameful that a well respected judge should put up a dog with eyes like that. The judge must have been aware of the problem and yet chose to ignore it. no wonder these breeds get in such a state.

Unfortuantely exageration seems to be the name of the game in many overseas country even more than in UK.

Yep we had a foreign dog in open dog (can't remember which country though) and to me it didn't really much look like a JS it had everything it should but in huge quanties, huge bone , huge round eyes and a huge coat, its done a massive amount of winning around the world and it look like a statue in the ring no expression what so ever.

You didn't need to be a vet to see that here eyes were not right. Shameful that a well respected judge should put up a dog with eyes like that. The judge must have been aware of the problem and yet chose to ignore it. no wonder these breeds get in such a state

Perhaps it was still the best of the bunch so she took her chances.

this is the link

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/mainsite/certificate.jpg

> Perhaps it was still the best of the bunch so she took her chances.

That's a pretty damming statement on behalf of clumber dogs & breeders.  

> Perhaps it was still the best of the bunch so she took her chances.

Maybe it was but judges have been told not to put up dogs with an obvious health problem. She did have the option to withhold the award herself. I would have thought the judge might have learnt something from what happened to the bull dog and Peke yesterday.
I for one am pleased the KC is  actually doing something to make sure judges do put up healthy dogs.

Will be interesting to see if tomorrows judges have learnt anything

It is i agree and i am not saying i believe that myself, however didnt all the judges attend a seminar the night before crufts regarding this, so why would the judge after being warned put herself and said owner in the firing line by choosing a dog with overly drooping eyes?

This also highlights to me what a mess this system is so far with unfounded accusations flying all round the shop.
P.s i have wanted a clumber for the past 3 years but hubby doesnt like them, so i certainly am not slagging the breed off.

> so if her owner/breeders can do it then there must be dogs out there to be bred from to produce her!

Yes but not all of her litter-mates will have been as clean, and she may herself still produce less clean heads, it will take some generations to reliably get what you want, in the breed as a whole.

it's often two steps forward one back, or even one forward and two back.

You didn't need to be a vet to see that here eyes were not right. Shameful that a well respected judge should put up a dog with eyes like that.

Problem being that you are not asked to judge eyes you are asked to pick the dog that in your opinion best fits the breed standard - on top of that you are asked to reject any dog that appears not fit for purpose. Now in some breeds problems like wrinkles in the skin and baggy eyes are the norm so it is going to take time for judges to understand just what is expected of them, add to that the conditions in the ring when seeing the actual cause of a damp eye may be very difficult the judges do not have examination tables fitted with lights.

I am in favour of exaggeration being ironed out in any breed but it will take time and I think this is, as someone said earlier, a wake up call I just wish it applied to all breeds as there are breed you would think were fine till you sit and watch several classes and then you wonder how the breed has got in such a state.

> Perhaps it was still the best of the bunch so she took her chances.

I would doubt it I have seen some beautiful working clumbers that are far from exaggerated.  We had a lovely bitch come to out Pet training classes that made me take an interest in the working groups dogs.

They do generally seem to me to have become less heavy and overdone than the Crufts BIS Clumber about 20+ years back.

I like their colour too, but i must say last year i went to see them on working day and do some shopping and i did feel there was a few with eyes that i wouldnt be happy with.
Yes i also think its doubtfull there wasnt ones there with better eyes i just can't understand why the judge put themselves in the postion that now they are under scrutiny.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I would doubt it I have seen some beautiful working clumbers that are far from exaggerated.  We had a lovely bitch come to out Pet training classes that made me take an interest in the working groups dogs.

And the working Clumbers tend to have far better hips too.

> I don't understand why they can't just bring in that to be able to compete all the dogs have to have all the relevant health checks for that particular breed,

Because many choose to wait to test their animals until they are fully mature. 

Somw tests aren't appropriate until adulthood, and hips are 12 months or over. 

None of them are cheap and breeders need to save up.  I don't usually Hip score my girls until they are over 18 months, in fact Inka was a champion before she had hips or eyes tested, but had been DNA tested (though if I had waited she would have been DNA clear by parentage as both her parents were tested clear).

Then of course many exhibits whose owners do not intend to breed will not be put through the health testing schemes, (showing is a hobby in itself) after all your asking them to pay several hundred pounds for say just the basics of hip and eyes, add in a DNA test or two, elbows etc, for what if they are not going to be in the gene pool?

Thats true. i was going to get my bitch hip scored and DNA but i dont now plan to breed her so im not getting them done now. she has had an eye test which was clear. but an less she shows any helth problems i dont see the need for the tests if am not breeding her.

there are several head-shots from shows of this bitch here: http://www.dogsunit.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2907%3Awd-ch-chervoods-snow-sun&catid=740%3Ar5-clumber-spaniel-females&Itemid=1937

There is haw showing so I can't see how she would have entropion, maybe ectropion???

My new phone is messing about buy the repor was on Facebook and confirmed that Brainless. Diamond eye too, IRS now been removed, buy was here.  I have an issue with a number of lawyers on my phone

There is haw showing so I can't see how she would have entropion, maybe ectropion???

Yes just checked it says bilateral ectropian to lower lids and also mild conjuctivitus.

The head shots look fine to me but i is a noob so hardly a expert!

>

> There is haw showing so I can't see how she would have entropion, maybe ectropion???

Yes, the copy of the certificate on Dog World says ectropion, also signs of conjunctivitis.

Edited ot say we posted at the same time.

Just seen a video of the BOB Bulldog disqualified at Crufts taken in the utility group at Midland cos......I watched that group in which she featured ....I was struck just how moderate she was. She had a less extreme head and moved out the best I have ever seen a bulldog move.

In this case I suspect this may have been a retrograde step ....this dog was heading part way to improvement... and in such a short time...to be applauded.

Have you a link?

Here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkyTG-GgDLk&feature=share

I'd have to agree from that she seems very sound on the move and does not look overdone in head at all, even though the handler insisted on pushing her mouth up.

Would a judge be expected to pick up an ear infection (have never had a judge look into my dogs ears, or for that matter to tell if a dog had mild conjunctivitis under those lighting conditions at Crufts where those lights tend to bleach colour.

Re the Bulldog that didn't pass compared to this in the video held up as being less exaggerated, I'd argue the disqualified one was less exaggerated in wrinkle.  Would this one have passed under that vet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg5DezDsgc&feature=plcp&context=C4bf10aeVDvjVQa1PpcFO8TfPlY9x3J5HEGqMKbV32ZbtR-aoenPg=

I think owners of the 15 high profile breeds in future shows are going to want to know who the appointed vet is as well as who their judge is.  I think there will be a few who won't enter if this vet is doing the confirming of BOB's.

I don't think we know how many vets were involved, any idea which halls the disqualified dogs were in, as compared to the Shar Pei and Pug?  According to one of the KC things I read or heard they have a Vet station in each hall, so were 3 seperate vets involved in the disqualifications or were they all in the same hall so same vet?

> I think there will be a few who won't enter if this vet is doing the confirming of BOB's.

Good! If folk have doubts about their dog being fit they should stay well away to my mind. I expect they'll get little sympathy from those that have have decided personally to stay away for reasons such as coat blow and seasons!! Crufts is every year it's not long to wait and the deserving dogs will have their day... I can't  abide those that put trophy hunting above dogs comfort.

> Would a judge be expected to pick up an ear infection (have never had a judge look into my dogs ears, or for that matter to tell if a dog had mild conjunctivitis under those lighting conditions at Crufts where those lights tend to bleach colour.

Wasn't the main reason Ectropion? If so then the other droopy-eyed breeds might have an interesting time this weekend....

> I suspect that would cause the numbers registered with the KC to drop dramatically

Less is sometimes more :) after all, numerically small (but not too small) breeds can often work more effectively at limiting and correcting health issues.

> Heredity being what it is you can't guarantee, that the less exaggerated parents will produce puppies that are all not exaggerated

no of course, life throws out all kinds of anomalies that cannot be predicted, but I think it would be better to have something in place to make some breeders try that little bit harder. There are some lovely fit bulldogs out there and they are a breed I enjoy immensely but I am really disturbed by some of the increadibly overdone examples that you see.

> I also suspect that the non show breeders will continue to reproduce what they have..

Unfortunately yes :( one of the reasons i would like to see manditory health testing to certain levels for the parents of KC registered pups. You can't ever guarentee health but a KC registration should mean that you've tried your hardest

> Just seen a video of the BOB Bulldog disqualified at Crufts taken in the utility group at Midland cos......I watched that group in which she featured ....I was struck just how moderate she was. She had a less extreme head and moved out the best I have ever seen a bulldog move.

> In this case I suspect this may have been a retrograde step ....this dog was heading part way to improvement... and in such a short time...to be applauded.

Snakes alive you're right! Before I saw that clip I was feeling very pleased the vet had taken a stand against one of the breeds I feel we have hideously deformed over the years. But this bitch does seem to be taking a step in the right direction. Her breeders should have been rewarded for their effort in at least trying to bring this breed back to being a 'comfortable' dog.

Lordy lordy...the lesser spotted Hebeboots :-)

> The Bulldog on this [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg5DezDsgc&feature=BFa&list=PL9E24B055FE146296&lf=plcp" rel=nofollow]video[/url] is certainly a bit cleaner through the head and has 6 CC's, so if her owner/breeders can do it then there must be dogs out there to be bred from to produce her!

ahh shes nice :) looks athletic as well as chunky

> i did feel there was a few with eyes that i wouldnt be happy with.
>

met some yesterday at DD...frighteningly loose eyes to be honest :( also a couple of bulldogs that were worryingly undershot