Further thoughts  - sorry - as much as I agree with the KC's initiative, I think this has been a publicity stunt at the expense of the exhibitors who have worked to qualify for Crufts.

While I understand the KC is under pressure to be seen to be doing something, it would have been far more preferable to have put this vet checking into place at champ shows before qualification, instead of kneeing exhibitors in the groin once they get there.

I am all for changes, but not at the expense of exhibitors who have put their trust in other judges that led them to Crufts and found this thrust upon them at the very highest and most public level. If changes are to occur then it needs to be from the bottom up - and that means Open shows as well as Champ, because dogs can qualify for Crufts at Open level as well.

I don't know what the answer is - I don't show dogs, but have shown other animals over 30 years - and I can see where fairness lies.

we can only assume that the judge picked the best dog for best of breed, and there for all others were not as good. But that's not always the case. I have seen for myself wile standing ringside at open shows and watching other breeds, that sometimes the judge puts up a dog that is not better than the others. How often have we said to our selfs , "I would have picked a different one to win that."  Thats because every judge is different and human. And we all have are own opinions of what makes a BOB even a judge that has made it to crufts,. The BOB at crufts was BOB for that judge not  necessary  the best dog in the ring. And unfortunately it was not BOB for the vet that looked at it later .  I feel very sorry for the people who had there BOB taken away , it must be a horrid thing to happen . And maybe all class winners should be put under the vet so they can remove any unfit dogs before they get to BOB . It would still be upsetting, but not such a blow. And we may end up where the vet's  decision  is final rather than the judge, which kind of defeats  the purpose of having a judge. I agree that if a vet finds a dog is not healthy it should not be shown. But maybe they could go about it in a more thought out way, I think the reason why only BOB gets tested is cuz only BOB can move forward in to the group and BIS . and the vet tests are to stop a dog progresing in the show if its not healthy.

Do we know if the dogs are keeping the CC - I don't really see how they can but......

I think they are if I understood the press release correctly. I don't quite fathom why...

Think there is some misunderstanding it is the BOB award that is effected not the CC that as far as I know is unchanged although I think if you are not fit enough to win BOB you should not retain the CC.

The KC recently changed the rules, they used to be that you had to award a BOB even if you only had one in the breed even if that was so unworthy that you had withheld an award in the class - it was change so the BOB had to be awarded to a dog that had won a first.

I think they should have perhaps changed the name to the 'best of breed winners' because even if you only have one it is still the best of what you have there.

Also think we should wait before we jump to the conclusion that the Bulldog was penalised because of an old injury, if this is so then it is unfair and I think unlikely as judges are not given the sort of equipment in the ring that would pick this up.

Now although the buck stops with the judge it will take time for them to understand, for years they have been judging to their interpretation on the breed standard and now they are going to have to retrain their brain to judge to someone else's interpretation. It will take time for the judges to re-educate their eye so I would not fine but I would want them to re-take a breed seminar & test although there still remains the problem that you can't inflict one persons interpretation on another and most judges are not vets and some have no idea how the dogs conformation effects its fitness.

If it's a healed eye injury, why not? Dogs are successfully shown with other scars which don't affect their health.

Oops sorry realised the discussion had moved on and deleted my post but too late! I agree with you if it is a healed injury... I think until the reason is known for the withdrawal, it's hard to make a clear opinion on those checks... I too would liek to see those checks done before the BOB but i guess the problem which faces the KC is how to set it up so it's possible to do it before judging.

Through the grapevine I heard that both the breeds which had their BOB removed were due to a nose/muzzle 2 short in length. This came from a Peke exhibitor. Will await the truth which hopefully will be soon!

the dogs being judged unfit to be Best of Breed but keeping the CC somehow makes a mockery of the whole thing to me.

the dogs being judged unfit to be Best of Breed but keeping the CC somehow makes a mockery of the whole thing to me.

Do agree here Cooper, think that the CC should also be forfeit and the RCC winner should then be looked at and if declared fit should be given the CC. However we can't get to a situation where the award of the BOB is allocated by a vet so once the BOB winner is declared unfit the breed as a whole should loose that award for that particular show.

Been thinking that perhaps in a breed where the BOB is declared unfit in more that a certain number of shows (say one quarter of the number where CCs are on offer) then that breed should loose the total allocation of CCs for a number of years so they could concentrate on putting their house in order - very harsh but it may be the quickest way as to have a BOB declared unfit is a reflection on the whole of the breed not just the one animal.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">going around from people who know that the bulldog failed on an old eye injury shown up when the vet shone light in eye so not hereditary  !!!! If true then a minefield me thinks

Its all hearsay at the moment.    I am saddened to read on a FB group the baying crowds condemning the vet(s) for what they did yet no-one has criticised the whole structure of the Bulldog.     Its been 3(?) years since the last PDE yet the Bulldog is still extreme, it certainly isn't fit for function. It would be trampled to death by a bull now as it is too cumbersome.  At least a Dalmatian (Another Utility group breed) has the conformation to do it's intended job as does the Keeshond etc.  The Bulldog people knew that they were amongst the 15 high profile breeds getting checked at Crufts and this breed always attracts criticism. 

What do people want? The head of the vet on a stake on Tower Bridge?

>going around from people who know that the bulldog failed on an old eye injury shown up when the vet shone light in eye so not hereditary  !!!! If true then a minefield me thinks

I think beyond a minefield, this would be a travesty and a huge PR error for an exercise which is going to be a hard sell to some anyway. I'm all for the health tests when conducted sensibly, but one of the first ones being for such a stupid reason would even put me against it. However, I absolutely can't believe that this is the case, let's hope I'm not being naive.

M.

the baying crowds condemning the vet(

Perhaps it is fair to point out this is not the attitude being taken here, if the vet found a construction fault that was not correct according to the standard then they are right to do as they have.

But if the problem feature is to standard then that is an even bigger problem.

This has not been thought through properly at all, it should of been testedat other shows first, it's done purely to placate the neigh sayers, I've been told by quite a few friends that there was a big radio thing saying crufts will soon be stopped because of all the inbreeding and how little regard we have for the dogs :-/

>Its been 3(?) years since the last PDE yet the Bulldog is still extreme

It'll take several generations for changes to become established - we'll need to compare the bulldogs in 20 years time to today's examples to see how well the breeders have done.

I didn't mention CD Jackie, I did state Facebook.    

I didn't mention CD Jackie, I did state Facebook.

Too true but I thought it worth mentioning that in general the response on CD is more measured but there will be some who have a knee jerk reaction

I very much doubt that the Bulldog has been penalized for an old eye inj. I think we need to wait and see what the official report is and no doubt it will be in the dog press as soon as they know. The vet is supposed to penalize any obvious construtional fault that will make living a normal happy fit life not possible and I expect the fault will lie with the facial features and breathing ability. Same with the Peke. Niether breed is my cup of tea and I have to say I believe they need to change things. I have yet to see a Peke who can race about like a dog should do. They are in my mind (And I quite accept it is just my feelings) a travesty of what a dog should be. Too much coat, legs too short and face to short. Bulldogs are much the same though we do have 2 locally who walk for miles and have longer legs and better heads and are happy dogs...but no doubt they would not win any prizes in the rings.
I feel in the long run it may be upsetting now but for the sake of some of the breeds this needs to be done. I will be interested to see how the Neo gets on and if the BOB is blessed with less folds. I have followed some round at Champ shows and am horrified at the sores and floppy skin they carry.
As with all things some is good but more is not always better !
For what it's worth I think lots of breeds need sorting out if not for construtional faults then for small gene pools. I would like to see the KC put a cap on the number of matings any stud dog has to stop certain dogs flooding the gene pools. 20 - 30 matings is more than enough to pass the desirable qualities down.

Just putting my two-penneth in!!

Obviously it's not possible to vet checked every single exhibit, so why not check each class winner BEFORE the CC & Best Of Breed is given. That way, every breed would have an entry in the group?

The KC could have quite easily put a 'vet check' type room in each hall, so each class winner could have gone there after winning the class, the vet could have given it a 'pass certificate' which could then be handed to the steward when lining up for the CC, and that way it's slightly less public whilst still checking

Obviously it's not possible to vet checked every single exhibit, so why not check each class winner BEFORE the CC & Best Of Breed is given. That way, every breed would have an entry in the group?

That sounds a very sensible idea - any chance the KC taking it up?

Reasonable, but imagine the time hold ups to judging!  Don't think the group would go in until after midnight.

Not necessarilary, the exhibit goes straight to be checked after winning it's class, you would only be waiting for the last dog then for the CC to be given out

I think the point is being somewhat missed here.

This is a 'shot across the bow' of judges in breeds where exagerations are being monitored.

Nothing but nothing will make judges look at potential health issues more carefully than the public glare of their BOB being booted out.

At the next champ show and the next......judges will be looking very carefully indeed...no matter their personal preferences for disabled dogs.

I follwed several Bulldogs into the NEC yesterday....an old eye injury?....they had plenty to pick from, most were lame, teeth didnt fit in their face, tongues hanging out, waddling and heaving for breath.

Not necessarilary, the exhibit goes straight to be checked after winning it's class, you would only be waiting for the last dog then for the CC to be given out

Not sure it is practical unless you have a vet for each breed just think how many classes there are taking place in each hall, far too many for one vet to deal with and any error of judgement would be heavy punishment for those involved. Each breed would be sending forward between 10 and 25 dogs for the vet to deal with and some of those dogs may be entered in more than one class so would not be available immediately after each class.  So that would be around 20 x breeds, say 20, giving  a total number to be cleared by early afternoon 400 dogs then you have to allow for not getting the next breed in the ring because the first breed has animals still waiting in the vet queue.

How long would this assessment by the vet take? Would the handler be able to ask for a second opinion, that surely must be an option. What about breeds with very small numbers, the hold up would be lengthy and the judge may well have to start again with their assessment if they are unable to hold the information in their head whilst waiting for the winning dogs to return to the ring.

I would agree with the teeth not fitting, someonei know has a handful of bullies and I remember asking her why all the teeth looked like they had fell out and been placed back in loosely.

Ms Kiscos response.......     http://audioboo.fm/boos/704304-caroline-kisko-day-1

This is a 'shot across the bow' of judges in breeds where exagerations are being monitored.

Agree, and not before time - breeders must start breeding to standard and judges must search their conscience (sp) to make sure they are not harking back to a personal preference and are judging to today's standard. We have all watched others judge and wonder what on earth they are looking for because their choice seems strange and inconsistent because in their mind a single feature is over-riding breed type. 

Has'nt this Bulldog bitch already been vet checked at BUPA and passed there with flying colours ?...so which vet is right ??

Yvonne

Has'nt this Bulldog bitch already been vet checked at BUPA and passed there with flying colours ?...so which vet is right ??

Yvonne

Well, a vets opinion is like that of the judge, just one persons opinion - I can see a few court cases pending. After all you enter under the judge and agree to accept their opinion but you are not entering under an unnamed vet whose opinion you can't even guess at. There really will have to be some sort of appeal procedure.

> been 3(?) years since the last PDE yet the Bulldog is still extreme,

Unless the bulldog BOB is still a youngster then that doesn't really apply.

If the bitch was bred since, then it's still only first generation with new priorities, and I would expect very little change in conformation with just one generation.  After all the breeder will only be able to utilise the material the breed has available.

As a breeder I can tell you that you may choose a certain dog for your bitch as you would like to improve, set a characteristic, and you may not get what you wanted, or the improvement in that trait is in an animal that has lost or has faults in other areas.

The only thing that can change in the 3 years is how judges judge, and they will have to learn to reward what they may consider plainer, but less exaggerated specimens from their entry.

> That sounds a very sensible idea - any chance the KC taking it up?

Your talking about 10 or more class winners who have to get back in the ring as opposed to 1 BOB who only has to wait for the group.  It's just not logistically possible.

I'd be much happier it it were the BOB, but in every breed. 

I do think though the BOB should loose it's CC, and the RCC winner would be called for Vet inspection in order to be upgraded.

Not appearing in the group would be the penalty for the judge not towing the line.

It may mean looking outside the bubble and breeding to dogs that you would not normaly look twice at just to put something back that has been lost . like leg lenth or muzle. but im not a breeder so dont know. If all the unbeaten Dogs were sent to a vet wile the bitch classes were on. they cound come back with a card saying they passed. if a dog did not pass it should still go home with its 1st, as that was the judges choice. but not continue. then the unbeaten Bitches could do the same wile BD was being judged. That way it would not interfere with judging or make people wait to be seen by the vet .

Another good post, Brainless....

Yes but there is more than one breed to deal with, so you'd need a vet per breed, ans arguably a vet inspection takes longer than to judge a dog.

>Its all hearsay at the moment.    I am saddened to read on a FB group the baying crowds condemning the vet(s) for what they did yet no-one has criticised the whole structure of the Bulldog.     Its been 3(?) years since the last PDE yet the Bulldog is still extreme, it certainly isn't fit for function.

Yes 3 years - so 1, perhaps 2 at most generations. And any 2nd generation puppies would not be old enough to be at Crufts this year. I know things need to be improved in some breeds, and people tell us that they started trying to reduce exaggeration a long time ago - but if we are counting just from the 1st PDE, it hasn't been long enough to see any dramatic differences.

True. dont know what they are going to do then cuz i do think to award a BOB to someone only to take it away again is wrong. but I also think vet checks are needed if we are to change dogs with problams

Just read that the Clumber spaniel BOB has failed vets too :-(

I know just read that too.. A breed I have long admired from afar(Clumber).. If they are going to do this, then please can we not be told as to why?
Just found a FB page called Team Jenny which is all about the Bulldog, still doesn't confirm much, hinting at an injury to the eye..

The Clumber Spaniel has not been awarded BOB at Crufts after failing vet. inspection.

> I do think though the BOB should loose it's CC, and the RCC winner would be called for Vet inspection in order to be upgraded.

I agree if the dog is not fit enough to go in the group it should have the CC removed too, in which case the RCC would automatically be given the CC, but not BOB. The opposite sex CC winner would need to to compete against the RCC winner for BOB, so these two dogs would have to hang around while the BOB winner was vet checked.

> A (small) army is always in force at any cat show, but checking for signs of illness or disease, as cats are more prone than dogs. However it wouldn't be impossible to instruct vets at cat shows doing the vetting-in, to look for certain features detrimental to welfare - as in this case with dogs

or alternatively random 'spot testing' as is supposed to take place to check for coats being dyed?

> which is all about the Bulldog, still doesn't confirm much, hinting at an injury to the eye..

Thought yesterday while watching the coverage on more 4 & the interview with Steve Dean regarding vet checks & the withholding of BOB's, that the reasons for failure would not be available until after the show.

Imagine if you owned a BOB, failed vet, then you were able to provide evidence that vet discriminated on an old eye injury for instance, how on earth can you ever be compensated for what must surely be a once in a life time moment, the group if not the BIS show ring?

> if the dog is not fit enough to go in the group it should have the CC removed too

Non shower/breeder here :) Surely this would be the end of this dog's showing career ??

> Imagine if you owned a BOB, failed vet, then you were able to provide evidence that vet discriminated on an old eye injury for instance, how on earth can you ever be compensated for what must surely be a once in a life time moment, the group if not the BIS show ring?

i know. owner must be heart broken

> you were able to provide evidence that vet discriminated on an old eye injury for instance

We'll have to wait for the correct story, I really can't imagine that a vet would disqualify a dog for an old injury.

> Surely this would be the end of this dog's showing career ??

certainly it would be difficult to recover from. however the statement from the KC about this says

"Judges now have the power to remove dogs that look unhealthy from competition and show monitors can also ask show veterinary surgeons to determine whether a dog is healthy enough to continue competing"

Does that mean competing permenantly or for the show?

To be honest i feel that the whole thing is bit of a cop out from the KC, high profile breeds as a phrase says to me 'we'll work on that because you are looking'. if they are that concerned by health standards testing should be a requirement for parents when registering pups. In addition to this I think there should be some kind of submittal by a vet before registration of pups to confirm general health of the parent, so for example with mastiffs that the dog had no history of entropian/extropian. might be difficult to arrange but i think health is important in dogs and it seems like lip service is being paid at the moment.

> Non shower/breeder here :-) Surely this would be the end of this dog's showing career ??

Maybe, maybe not, there will be some judges (probably quite a lot of them) that dig their heels in and continue to put the dog up as they know better (or think they do) than any vet :-)

We stood watching a class in the Sussex Spaniel ring today and I must admit was quite upset seeing a couple of the dogs in the ring as they just looked although they were in pain and were struggling to even muster up a trot. It was a very sad sight and was quite taken a back that they were being shown :-(