Edit: never mind, chaumsong found the clip :-)

You re ghastly exaggerating things to mke it look worse thn it is. Dont you think if he kicked dogs and slammed them to the ground the american version of the RSPCA would get involved quick smart and he would be bnned from working with dogs ever.  America are hot on animal cruelty they have a better system than us on offenders and rightly so and i don't think america would stnd for that!

>come on you know that isn't true throttle a dog where is all this coming from. Because someone doesn't have the same opinion you have to lie?

It's no lie; it's on Youtube for anyone to see. Video. There are others where he winds up a pitbull bitch and does the same thing.

I didn't exaggerate anything - the clips have now been posted so you can see for yourself.  He kicks, he throttles, he slams to the ground (call it pinning or alpha-rolling if you like, but ultimately he is slamming a dog to the ground because no dog in its right mind is just going to let him do it).

> As for the mastiffs as i have said before he uses different techniques to different dogs

Yes, because he simply can not alpha roll a mastiff! (nor get away with the rough stuff/confrontational things) Does this mean he can not be a 'pack leader' to a mastiff, or does it mean that he is forced to drop the bully-boy tactics and use a methods that work without confrontation, in which case, if it can be done with the big 'uns it can most definately be done with the little 'uns. Therfore, he is a bully, resorting to intimidation & confrontational ways when he can get away with, not the signs of a great trainer or behaviourist, a sign of somebody that knows how to pick the battles with dogs that they are sure to 'win' against :( :(

> He has had more success than other dog whisperers put together.

Are you just taking his word for that or has it been independently audited? :)

>He always explins his methods and what the dog is thinking.

Jean, Nikita, Sillysue, I am totally in agreement with you. I have only seen his programme once and have never bothered to watch it since (wonder why!).

Katalina, how can ANYONE claim that they know what a dog is thinking?? Most people would laugh if someone said they knew what a human was thinking let alone an entirely different species!

Can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned his outdated techniques, couldn't agree more. And when we talk about the pack theory, how many of those pack dogs hundreds of years ago lived in centrally heated houses? None, things have changed.

Loving this topic!

Stooge no that is my opinion which is what this forum is for. Roxy i didn't mean to put what the dog is thinking i meant he reads the dog body language. Obviously this debate is just going round in circles. My opinion is what it is and nobody will change it no matter what you post or however  hard you try and push me in a corner to get bombarded because i say what i feel and when people don't agree that is up to them.

When out with mine,its the people who live in flats that are giving there dogs good daily walks.alot of the middle classes are out at work so mostly weekend dog walkers,I work nights so always up early in the day to excersise mine,and none of my dogs have ever missed a walk,even walked mine when my leg was in plaster,pulling me down the road like two raindeers,oh well at least they got out.

Sheila

>even walked mine when my leg was in plaster,pulling me down the road like two raindeers

Haha, love it!

>My opinion is what it is and nobody will change it

Fair enough, that's your prerogative; but an apology for calling us liars would be the mature thing to do.

> i didn't mean to put what the dog is thinking i meant he reads the dog body language.

If anyone reading this thread is interested in learning about canine body language, signals, language etc then may I recommend some excellent resources:

Roger Abrantes
Brenda Aloff
Sarah Kalnajs
Turid Rugaas
and also the books by Dr. Stanley Coren give an insight into how dogs communicate - both with each other and with humans.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">My opinion is what it is and nobody will change it no matter what you post or however  hard you try

Mmm.. then your ability to learn and develop your skills with dogs is very limited.

Fortunately not all of us are like that, otherwise no one would learn a thing and we would never progress knowledge or science at all - we'd be stuck thinking the sun revolved around the earth...

Lots of people like Cesar Milan - but, lots of people (celebrities included!) think its perfectly acceptable to buy puppies from pet stores and puppy farms, rub puppies noses in poo and hit them with a newspaper. It doesn't mean they are RIGHT!

My opinion, and the opinions of the people disagreeing with you, is formed after years of reading, studying dogs, looking at the scientific research done over the years, a more than basic understanding of learning theory and psychology.

Yours is formed from what - watching a smiley man on the tv.

Proper animal psychology and behaviour modification gets to the root of a problem, removes the CAUSE and the REASON for a behaviour to effect the 'cure'.

Cesar Milan's approach is to eradicate the behaviour itself with little to no understanding or thought for the causes, nor the potential repercussions of suppressing those behaviours.

His method is really just wallpapering over the cracks, sticking a few elastoplasts over a massive infected wound. It might LOOK better, you may no longer see the original problem, but believe me, it is festering away there and it will cause problems down the line.

> If you doubt that body language has that power, just try standing too close to someone, leaning in a little too much to speak to them, holding their eye contact a bit too long and see how quickly they feel uncomfortable and try to back away (and hve someone do this to you and see how you feel) -

This would make me feel VERY VERY uneasy :(
I have heard of CM but not watcher or seen any of his work (as far as i am aware), maybe he is not as big where i come from. I think after all these comments on him I will research him and have a look at his work, weather it will be helpful for me and my dog or not, always like to do me research :)
I think the way people have described him on here makes me dislike his tactics and way of doing things, although i cant say yet having no knowledge of his work, but then I also agree with an earlyer comment about dog owners producing scared or aggressive dogs or dogs PTS by using his methods as they may not have been using them right and may not actually be down to his methods just the owners own faults. I have researched a few diff trainers etc and used a few diff approaches into training but not carried on with earlyer ones as my pup seemed to not get far, or anywhere with it, I put this down to me interpreting it wrong and so doing it wrong, and best to stop before I confuse her.
A women once down my local field with her two spaniels told me about a women dog whisperer, and said I should watch her, she told me one of her tactics was to tap/poke a dog in the neck when getting naughty or over excited to show tem you are incharge :o I went away knowing I would not watch this women.
I love Victoria Stillwell :) What are others views on her as a trainer ????

I have a question seen as though we are on the topic of being doinant over our animals and scaring them ito submission. Yesterday my partner asked me what the correct way of picking a big dog up was (like my dog) and i showed him how i had been shown what the correct way was. I picked her up for about 2 secods and then when i put her down i put her on the sofa, standing up, she stayed stood up on the sofa but against the back for about 5 to 10 mins and looked very upset. I was horrified, I thought i have upset her or scared her in any way. Do you think I did?? Is it an agressive type of thing for an owner to do to their dogs, like i said in her eyes it would have been for no reason (she is usually fine when lifting her into the bath etc) !! I hope i didnt dominate or tell her she was a 'bad girl' in any way :( Or was she just having me on or wanting attention ?? :)

ohhh Lurcherowner you hit a nerve with me i have same issues with a women along our road , shes owned a huge white Alsatian for almost 5 years and it NEVER COMES OUT THE HOUSE and has never been for a walk!!!,,, the garden is only 15ft by 12ft so not overly big its full of dog mess as the women now has her daughters pitbull living out their, again that never gets walked its been their 13 months now,, the garden is a breeding ground for rats and mice its so unkept and over grown, and the smell and fly's in the summer is gut wrenching!,,,,

the women works and goes pub and to her daughters house staying over at times so the dogs are left for long periods alot of the time alone,, 5 days being the most and the rspca taped up her key hole and came daily to feed it ice cubes and food thu the letterbox, the see the dog was slipping around in its own dirt yet when the women returned they ended up leaving the poor dog their with her because it didnt look beaten or starved to badly!,,,

people like the women make me sick to my stomach she is like butter wouldn't melt,, got an excuse for every cruel thing shes done,, always blaming the dogs and never looking at herself,,, biggest joke of all is she was the chairperson of our local tenants association and her 22 year old daughter is in uni studying to become a vet nurse and will be going off to africa to help animals out their and all over her fb is how animals are her life,, yeeppeee for the new reformed animal welfare act,,, ohhhh sooo makes my blood boil!!!!!..

you couldnt make it up i swear to you,, the pitball has been barking no stop for 6 months or more now where he is constantly left outside with no proper clean bedding, with repeated complaints from lots of neighbors to the council got to the point noise team refused to come out to one lady complaining as they had been their 3 time that day already regards to 3 other tenants complaining, and still it went on and on and on,,,

one day the man behind this womens garden got so pee'd off he come round banging her door only to find the women was doing her bit for the community serving up sandwiches at an event across the road from our houses,,, (as i said like butter wouldnt melt lol) ya have to laugh cos this dog had been barking no stop for 6 hours while this women plays "im the little helper pillar of the community on the estate",,, while us living around her are bloody going demented!,,,,
he stormed over to her and had a right go in front of everyone, came back saying "that is one ignorant c*** that is",,,, she promptly went inside out to her garden dragged the dog after a few slaps into a damp dark outside cupboard and locked him in their,

some people are just evil beyond belief ,

over the last 2 wks the barking of the pitbull at least has stopped somewhat but i have heard thats because the council finally  sent a final warning any more complaints and shes out!,,, the Alsatian however is still barking all day but she is inside the house and since they had double glazing its more muffled now,,,,, i just dont know how people like this sleep at night!,,,,

Oh dear, that is terrible :( And to think of all the dogs that get abandoned, put to sleep, rehomed a number of times or generally smacked and told off on a day to day basis because of things owners do to them and the problems owners cause. A DOG ONLY BARKS BECAUSE IT IS TRYING TO TELL US SOMETHING, proberly in this case that it is uncomfortable, cold, and LONELY :( THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PROBLEM DOG, JUST A PROBLEM OWNER :(
I cant believe the RSPCA didnt do anything. thats madness. I have a few suggestions, you said that man went over to her infront of people and started yelling, what if a hole group of you did that??? And not just complain about the noice, as that will prob just prompt her into go back and smacking the dog into beig quiet, but have a go about the way she treats them, or you could have a quiet polite word with her and explain what er actions are doing and if she needs any help looking after them or understanding them better OOORRRR ask her maybe if she wants to rehome them (it does not seem like she wants them) and that you will take them off her hands and either keep them your self (you may not want to do this) or find a very good suitable home for them together ????
Just a few thoughts :)

ohh believe me this with the Alsatian has been going on nearly 5 yrs i started off by telling her polity the dog was barking all day (before double glazing) and offered to walk with her and my rottie who would get on great with her dog almost same size they'd have made good playmates,, she didn't want to no,, (we used to be friendly neighbors i have known her in passing for 10 years from our estate then 12 years when i moved along by her),

then a new neighbor moved in nxt door she became friends with all of us, and the women would leave the dog all the time and as neighbor had the key she used to go in and look after the dog, but it ended up the owner actually did nothing for the dog at all and the women was going in having to clean up its mess and pee as she had no idea if owner had been in from one day to the next she would leave it all to the neighbor who is disabled she had to hand the key back saying it was to much, because the owner literally does nothing at all,,,

then i had another word with her trying to make her see the dog is suffering from seperation anxiety and i got a slap in my face which turned into a cat fight in the street, me and owner have not spoken since, i had her daughter round my house 3 months after the fight screaming how im a slag this that and the other, another screaming match at my door,,
then 6 months after that hubby coming in from work when this hooded thug came up to him and started hurling abuse at how we are harassing his mum inlaw,, ie the owner ((( erhummm whose harassing who exactly))),,, Another slagging match outside my door where threats where made by him at use of burning down our house with us in it only it wouldnt be him who done it as he was on his last strike it be his breadwings who come to sort us out!!!,,, whatever,,,,

now the new neighbor of 3 yrs who is right nxt to the dog owners house has started complain and has tried to talk to her nicely as i once did is getting a load of cocky comments back at her when she says anything,,,, everyone feels whats the point she wont give the dogs up she wont take help only if your going to do absolutely All the work, i care for my disabled mum and son and my hubby works hard we have 3 dogs of our own even if i was on speaking terms with this women i could not spare time to help her dog as much as is needed,, neighbor is now in consent pain and cant help, the guy behind has no time he works nights and the other person complaining to the council is a mystery to us all, some people you just cant help,

> the rspca taped up her key hole and came daily to feed it ice cubes and food thu the letterbox, the see the dog was slipping around in its own dirt yet when the women returned they ended up leaving the poor dog their with her because it didnt look beaten or starved to badly!,,,
>
>

The RSPCA is too busy with its media campaigns most likely.

Has anyone complained to Environmental Health?  They would be the people to speak to about the filth, rats, mice etc I would think, might not help with the welfare side of things but it could be a start in making her realise what's happening is unacceptable.

Crikey if everyone who works full time wasn't allowed a dog there would be a lot of sad people not enjoying the dog owning experience!  I have worked full time since leaving college and still do 10 years later.  Our family has always owned, trained, worked and shown their dogs and I continue with that and I work full time!  My dogs are well trained, well socialised and have walks, attention and all my spare time given to them.  At lunchtime they would normally do some training and play (they love to charge around) until they are tired and ready to sleep again but in this weather I have to force them out the back door for even a wee.  I run training classes, work and show my dogs and have never had a problem going to work.  Yes it would be lovely to work part time or not at all but unfortunately that wouldn't keep a roof over my head and I couldn't imagine my life without the dogs.  Each breeder I have got my dogs from are very well respected in their breeds and are more than happy with my set up and my dogs.  So yes i believe you can own dogs and work full time, depends how much you put into your dogs and also consider the breed you own.

Environmental Health and our noise team are one in the same in our area Nikita believe me its taken 4 years of complaining from the man behind this women to even send her a letter regarding the barking Alsatian!,

>I love Victoria Stillwell :-) What are others views on her as a trainer ????

Errrm!   An improvement on CM?  :-)

Have to admit that my all time favourite is Ian Dunbar.  He is ace.

> Have to admit that my all time favourite is Ian Dunbar.  He is ace.

Ditto,

OMG that is just outragous !! I cant believe you got a slap in the face from this women ad threatened by her and others :o
and i understand you, or your neighbours can not find the time to help with the dogs, but at the end of th day you should not have to, why should all the street have to put up with this women, and get upset every day by seeing what she is doing :( and i cant believe you offered to walk the alsation with your dog and she refused, that would be such a massive difference to that poor dogs life, and she said no? But why? Does she not want her dog walked?? I also dont understand why she does not re-home the dogs, she oviously does not want them, she does not want to do anything with them, and it is causing her trouble from her neighbours, why is she set against re-homing them? I dont like to see dogs moved from their home (where that is all they know) and in kennels, but in some cases (such as this) it is the best thing by far for the dog, and is sooooo cruel for them not to be re-homed :(
I would keep a log now of the next month or so, every day, times she is out and when she comes back (as muc as you can see seen as tho u live a busy life), every time you see the dog in the garden or in the house, any rubbish or vermin you can see, any other abuse of her, when the dog starts barking and when it goes quiet, if you can see her coming back from shops with food or toys etc take pics also and go back to RSPCA or any where lse that may listen and make them listen, i no with places like this it is sometimes hard but hey they may get that sick of hearing about this women that they may do something just to shut you and others up :) ORRRR go to the local newspaper with all info you have and name and shame her hehehehe xx

> Errrm!   An improvement on CM?  :-)
>
> Have to admit that my all time favourite is Ian Dunbar.  He is ace.

Yes i do think Ian Dunbar is ace also :)

> When out with mine,its the people who live in flats that are giving there dogs good daily walks.alot of the middle classes are out at work so mostly weekend > dog walkers

Golly - that's a bit of a sweeping statement. I doubt whether it's anything to do with 'middle class' - I thought that some 'working class' people worked during the day too, don't they ??? Maybe things have changed a bit recently ;) Until I moved house two years ago, where I lived there was a complete mix of people walking their dogs - admittedly most didn't live in flats as there were very few nearby, but it was a mixed area of jobs/incomes and the 'good' dog owners seemed to come from all walks of life - much as on here.

I have dated Ian Dunbar and been taken home to meet his mother lol. Not sure I'd catch his eye these days but it WAS a great time lol.

I am going by were I live,it is a semi rural area ,all walks of life,Sorry if I offended anyone by saying middle class,there is a small estate of council flats and yes the majority of tenants dont work,I am not being judgemental,but they are the ones I see walking there dogs everyday in all weathers,on nice days I see plenty out walking there dogs especially at weekends and of course boxing day.

Sheila