Hi. I have been woundering lately why it is some people have dogs. I no a few people with dogs who NEVER walk them and as far as i know never has done. But why?? I would report myself to RSPCA if I didnt walk my dog. A friend of mine has two 'big' Staffordshire bull terriors (4yr old and 2 yr old) and they are lovely dogs, well looked after just abit over weight but never walked ????? I no someone else quite well who has 3 small breed dogs, (5 years old) and never walkes them and when i asked why she said becasue from when they were pups they would not walk on he lead (tried to explain to her why but no luck) and she thinks they dont want to be taken for a walk, and being small dogs they dont need it, madeness i know, and another person i no has 7 mitature and normal sized yorkies, she also does not walk them, she actually does not do anything with them :( they are all just kept in the kitchen (not saying that is wrong as i no alot do it) with a cat flap if they want to go out (so she does not even have to let um out) poo and wee everywhere in the kitchen, biscuits left down all time so she does not even interact with them really to feed them, when you walk in the kitchen they all run at you (not sure if dominance or excitment) with over the top barking, jumping up at you biting your hands :o can tell no socialisation apart from each other, and worst of all as she dont really have much to do with them just lets them 'mate' with each other :O always seems to have pups for sale and last litter was from the 'bitch' and one of her previous male pups :O She once said to me (after i amazed her at my house with how my girl is and tricks she can do etc) that the only time she strokes her dogs is if she is in kitchen door having a fag she may give one a little stroke or something. I just dont no how people like that can have dogs. And also people who have never walked their dogs. I may not be an expert in dog ownership but knowing they need to be walked is just second nature to me and like i said i would feel like the worst person alive if i did not walk my dog. What do you all think or am i over reacting lol

Not over reacting at all.  This is one of my big pet hates (so to speak).  What is the point of having a dog for these people?  I accept that there may be circumstantial reasons - here, my dogs get shorter walks often because at the moment, I can't manage long walks (if I do manage it one day, I'm kaput for the rest of the week or longer), but I do my best to make up for it by entertaining them in other ways.  They're happy.  And there will be dogs who are too stressed on walks, so better left indoors; medical reasons, so on and so forth.  But there seem to be an awful lot of people these days who like the idea of having a dog - but that's as far as it goes.  They just can't be bothered to actually meet the dog's physical and mental needs, and to me that is just wrong - they should have a stuffed toy and be done with it.

My brother is one of these people - he adopted a maniac of a dog from Dogs Trust in 2000, the first year was great for her with his ex but once they separated ans he was responsible, life just became miserable for the dog.  Ultimately he also neglected her medically - she is Tia in my sig, I took her on temporarily as he was homeless and refused to give her back because of her condition due to his neglect.  Entirely because he couldn't be bothered to take her to the vet, and didn't want to pay.

Her whole story is here - http://fleabagandfishface.blogspot.com/2011/11/tia.html

What drove me mad the most with him was all the times he protested that he loved her so much, how bad it would be for her if she was away from him etc etc - but then he just carried on completely ignoring her.  It was total selfishness - he didn't want to give her up, but he was incapabale of considering the effect it was having on her, short or long term.

I hate it to. And i do know all these people i mentioned really well so i no there are no medical reasons or other reason that they dont get walked. The one mentioned with the 3 dogs that are about 5 or 6 years old says they dont like being walked she tried wen they were pups, but everyone noes a puppy's first time on lead is abit scary for them and also the only time they see a lead is when its vets time, tried to explain to her that is why they look like they dont want walking, she also said she cant walk them becasue of her arthritus (sorry about spelling) but i thought well why would you get a dog knowing u cant walk them or wont walk them and then get another and then another ?????? all the poeple i mentioned i have alot to do with them and so i no their dogs and their lifestyles and none of them do a thing with their dogs, never seen them give them fuss or cuddles or training etc, i no training with my dog as not gone well till recently but i was trying at least AND we have play times, something these people do not do. But i do have to say (as opposed to your brother) they do take them to the vets if need be, i suppose that is something. But looking at these peoples dogs, they remind me of a pack or wild dogs (bit over dramatic maybe haha) but you cant feed any of them, if you want to treat them you have to throw treats all over floor so they each can get one as they all scramble, cant feed them out your hands as you will have fingers taken off, i hate this and shows no socialisation or interaction has ever been done with them :(
I am glad that you took on your brothers dog and refused to give it back to him (i bet that was hard for you being your own family) but atleast now the dog is happy and well loved. I shall read your story from the link you sent :)

I have just read Tia's story, what an emotional rollercoaster. I went from tears of sadeness to tears of joy, to tears of sadeness and back again :'( :') !!! What a poor poor dog, and so much pain :'( But so so so so happy she is living out the remander of her life with you, and not only has her health improved but also her happyness :') xxxx

Just to point out that to people looking at me and my dogs from the outside would come to the conclusion that I did not walk my dogs either by I have a field attached to my garden and my dogs are exercised there. Yes, ideally they would be road walked as well but that is not possible so they have to "put up" with their own private park.

Not saying this is the case with the people mentioned on this thread but it may be the case so tread with care.

IT makes me mad too.

Yesterday I really didn't feel very well, so after a lot of beating myself up mentally I decided not to take Buster for a walk (he has one per day) as I don't thinkI would have faired well inthe awfullweather and slippy, muddy ground. He's 4 & half years old and that was only the fourth walk he's missed due to me feeling too unwell (he has missed walks through his bad legs, icy conditions and it being too hot), but I still feel awfull for not taking him out.

My dads neighbour has a collie and a collie cross (looks like a very tall collie). The one occasionally gets to go for a short walk to the shop (4mins each way). They both VERY occasionally get a short, leashed walk around the block (perhaps 10 mins). Those pooor dogs are either left in the garden or shut inthe conservatory. Whenever I'm on the phone to dad or visit him, I can hear them barking & barking & barking, then they get shouted at for making a noise.
My sister saw them being taken out a couple of weeks ago,they were very excited, pulled to get through the gate, so were shouted at and dragged back in :( :( :(

I've got a low-energy breed that has couch-potato tendancies and I feel sick with quilt for missing ONE walk - they have very active dogs that could work all day long and don't see anything wrong with keeping them shut in a small garden, getting a pathetic walk 1% of the time :( :( :(

What's annoying is the owners of the collies (mother & daughter), the daughter has been trying to loose weight as she is morbidly obese. She even PAID a fitness instructer to WALK with her around the village to help her weight-loss (£30 per walk!!!!!), but she will not give her dogs a daily walk- this has been pointed out to her repeatedly by my dad & sis - walk the dogs, it's a great motivation as they HAVE to go out daily. She can't even bring herself to walk them for her OWN good, so there is no chance of them being walked for the good of the dogs :(

Nova, i did mention i knew these people personally, and am close to them and i no, as they openly say, they dont ever walk them, not even to the shop, they feel they dont need to, and i no there are no health probs or anything, as i say i am close to them (pratically they are like family members to me) also i was not just getting at that i also mentioned how their dogs behavour (and from what they say) show that they have no socialisation or interaction. There are people from my estate (alot of dogs where i live) also look to not walk their dogs, but i would never say they didnt as like you said you dont no the circumstances, but the people i mentioned i do no the circumstances. Lacey has missed walkes before, mainly when the weather was too hot, as she does not handle the heat, she would just sit and whine all day and night, and if walked would over do it and be so uncomfortable the rest of the day, i didnt feel guilty for missing walks (only now and again but made up for it) as i knew she prefered it that way :) Have to say she does not let me get away with not walking her in the rain and cold :( She does not mind it (not typical of a greyhound lurcher haha) , and rain excites her for some strange reason haha I also have a field right next to my house and she goes down there and does not get much road walks, but she seems to prefere that :)

Until recently I had a mastiff x red cattle dog (he was bitten by a taipan) & I have 3 pure bred blue cattle dogs, as the name suggests these dogs are EXTREMELY active, I get so very annoyed with people who buy these types of dogs & then proceed to confine the poor animal to the chain - they then complain (or worse - put the dog to sleep) when the poor thing gets a little grumpy.  I am - some would say - quite vocal...... & LOUD, when I see this happen.  this & breeds like them, are working dogs, if they don't have something to do they literally go mad....  I have gone to the extreme, 10 years ago of actually stealing a cattle dog from people I knew & gave him to my sisters' father in law - he has a large cattle property in far north queensland.. long story short... this dog is still alive & is the king of his castle - he worked all day  (mustering cattle in the north is NOT an easy job) & has only become the car dog in the last couple of years (he was only a pup when I pinched him) but they have to chain him up when the men are saddling up to go - he follows, but is way to old & arthritic..  It's not something  I am very proud of, but they would have ended up having him put down (he still hates kids) they have had 4 dogs since then, 2 where put to sleep for the very reasons I pinched ranga...  they got snappy with the kids - the kids had (& still have) absolutely no respect for the dogs..  those kids are barred from going any where near my dogs..   actually I don't get that many visitors because of my babies - they are cattle dogs after all, & VERY VERY protective of me..  rule for my visitors is they phone before they drive the 45 minutes out here, other wise the dogs are off the chains & you touch the front gates at your own risk....  & there not bored suburban dogs either, they work for there dinner.... but in saying that - they would probably run about 20 kms at work (3 days a week) but I still take them to the creek & down to the beach (secluded beaches) they do tend to intimidate every human & animal within a mile or so on public beaches, (even on leads) you can imagine 3 (use to be 4) dogs in full play mode....  very entertaining..   bottom line is - dogs like humans can vary in shape & size, but you should always make time for the physical & mental well being of the 4 legged loved ones even if its throwing the ball for 5 lousy minutes....   Its something - right!!!!!  but my life does revolve around the 3 kids, so my opinion is just that.....   my opinion...........
Cheers Victoria (Qld - Aust)

Indeed Lurcher Owner, was just trying to point out that things are not always as they seem although I realise in this case it is.

yes nova, not all is what it seems in most cases, unfortunatly some people are quick to judge, but something i tend not to do myself :) and also so it seems, something you tend not to do :) such an important trait to have through life :)
Victoria - your life sounds very interesting :) i love to live a day in your life with your dogs :) hmmmm stealing i am not a fan off at all but in your case I would have deffinatly off give an exception :) How bad that these people have had numorous dogs put to sleep due to THEIR mistakes over and over again :( GRRRRRR

and also so it seems, something you tend not to do :-)

Do try but find it hard on line, you can only judge people by there own words and some seem intent on painting themselves in a less than attractive light.

I've been feeling bad enough because I haven't been able to take one of my dogs out for her normal walks for a few weeks now.  However this is because she has an immune condition that occasionally flares up and causes her pads and nails to be extremely painful.  I have tried boots but this did not go down to well so unfortunately she has to wait it out until they are back to normal....I do wonder if my neighbours think i'm mean because they see me out with my other 2 dogs all the time and not this one!  Luckily she is currently on the mend and will soon be back to her everyday activities :)

I  have an old girl that only enjoys pottering about in our garden, but she comes to agility shows with us in the caravan etc, she used to enjoy walking but has probs now so does not enjoy going for a walk and i can see this in her so i cater for her needs, but the others they get at least two long walks,runs,swims a day , training at night,out at weekends to shows , but i have neighbours who have dogs they do not get walked at all, and they bark for most of the day, when the neighbours said to me yours are so quite compared to such and such i said mine are shattered do not have time to bark they are so busy, their dogs bark because they are bored stupid, one is a gsd and the other a cocker they pace up and down the garden and you know when you go to a zoo and see a big cat pacing both of these dogs do this it is awful to watch.

Hi all,

I have heard people say before that if you work full time you shouldn't have dogs. In some cases I think this may be true, but when I first got Roxy my Irish Setter (there's another high energy dog, and one that has been labelled 'scatty' by many) I was working full time. I lived and worked in the same town so we would go out first thing for half an hour, I would bike home at lunch and take her out again for 40mins and then we would go out for another hour when I got home at 5.15, this continued in all weathers and I didn't care if it was dark in the winter either. I think that this was plenty of exercise for her and of course this doesn't include training sessions that I would do with her in and around the home.

I am now lucky enough to work for myself doing dog stuff, so they are with me 95% of the time and spend a lot of the day walking around with me, either in town or in countryside and they love it!

What are others opinions on people who work but still want to have dogs?

As far as being exercised outside the home I think that depends on the dog and in some cases the owner, there is little point in taking the dog out if it is scared or dangerous so as long as you make full use of the area available to you to play and develop games with your dog there is no big problem with that, most dogs like going out but some do not.

Now as to people being out of the home for hours on end I am not too happy with that, dogs are social animals and need company, if you have two dogs that is acceptable but I am not happy to hear of a lone dog on its' own for more that about 3 hours, if you have someone to come in and walk the dog and be with it for a couple of hours that goes a long way to addressing the problem.

>What are others opinions on people who work but still want to have dogs?

My answer is a definite no.  How do you housetrain a pup, and let it out every hour to pee?

Most dogs now are kept as companions.  And leaving a dog all day is not company.

As my vet tells me, if I want to refuse to sell, that is my prerogative!  :-)

But what about someone who works and wants a dog, but doesn't get a puppy?  There are plenty of older dogs needing homes who would be quite happy to have a walk first thing then snooze all day - got a few of those here.  Even though I'm here all day, Tia is quite happy to bimble about in the garden or chew a chew or just sleep, no matter what I'm doing.

I can understand saying no to a puppy for a full time worker - I heartily agree with that.  But saying no to any and all dogs is a bit too generalised IMO.

> There are plenty of older dogs needing homes who would be quite happy to have a walk first thing then snooze all day - got a few of those here. 

When my last dog was older (from about 12yrs old) I wouldn't leave him for more than 2 & half hours as he wasn't as good at holding his wee and would have been mortified if he was forced to wee in the house. It even meant that when we went around a friends for an evening meal, I would have to pop home half way through to let the dog out for a widdle.

> When my last dog was older (from about 12yrs old) I wouldn't leave him for more than 2 & half hours as he wasn't as good at holding his wee and would have been mortified if he was forced to wee in the house.

That the thing, it is a gamble as to whether an adult dog will be happy to be left all day.  After all, it is seperation anxiety that leads a lot of dogs to be in rescue in the first place.  Dogs deserve human companionship.  It is what we have bred them for.
Since my old girl left me although I only work part time the period of hours I work has been extended so, although I would dearly love a dog in the home again I just accept I must wait until I am better placed for one as I had to do when I first left home.

I know a girl (a real animal lover, very good dog owner, moved out of her mothers house into a flat, so had to leave dogs with her mum but still goes up to walk them) in her block of flats a girl who lives above her has a small breed of dog. She sad this girl was out at work all day, but not an all day shift of about 8hrs, she said up to 12hrs a day, and not coming back at all during that time, she said all she could hear all the time was the dogs disstress, THIS I DO NOT BELIEVE IN AT ALL !!! But a few years back i looked after a friends dog for a while, when she went on holiday, I was abit reluctant as I was working at the time, although not full time. I was out of the house about 4 days a week for about 6 hours, and I walked the dog for an hour before going, had my mum come half way through the day to let her out and then when i got back she had another hours walk, the dog was 4 years old and she was fine with this and I had no problems with her, and neither did her owner when she went home. I think this kind of thing would not suit a puppy, not only due to not being able to hold their bladder but also becasue they need so much attention put into them at that age, and also would not suit an old dog as pointed out because of bladder issues. But saying that as long as you have the right dog for that situation and you handle the situation with respect ie walks before and after and inbetween and not stupid amount of hours left like over 8 then i think it will be reasonable and people should not judge, we all need to earn a living and should not be told that we can not have a dog becasue of this.
People in flats with dogs??? HMMMMM tricky one. I think a block of flats is out of the question due to how small they are, noice probs, and difficult to take them out to the toilet. But I am not totally against dogs in flats (Some may judge me for this way of thinking) again as long as the situation is handled correctly. I know another girl who lives in a flat, and this is a decent sized flat (same size if not bigger than some small houses who people keep dogs in, just becasue it has a small garden they are not judged for this) and outside the flat is big patch of grass and this girl takes her dog out for a toilet as often as the dog needs and takes her for 3 walks a day ( a run in morning, a walk roand the block and then a nother run), and the dogs is very happy with this, is in perfect condition and health and great tempermant. I have not got a bad word to say about this girl and her dog. So again i think it depends on breed, temperment, health, size of flat, routine etc etc what are others thoughs on this ???

> That the thing, it is a gamble as to whether an adult dog will be happy to be left all day.  After all, it is seperation anxiety that leads a lot of dogs to be in rescue in the first place.

I agree, and separation anxiety can be brought on by anyhing, sometimes unkown. My girl has it and i have ever only left her for max of 3 hours since having her and atm I would not dream about going back to work for atlease another 6months, if not longer if situation has not improved at that time, it really does depend on the dog, company needs, exercise needs and temperman, some dogs will just not tolerate it.

I beleive pets who have owners in flats are sometimes better as they have to take their dogs for a walk to go to the toilet so may in fact be better owners where as some owners in houses tend to put their dogs to toilet in the garden rather than take them for a walk. This quote is from Cesar Milan a dog phycologist who i happen to agree with wholeheartedly.

> I beleive pets who have owners in flats are sometimes better as they have to take their dogs for a walk to go to the toilet so may in fact be better owners where as some owners in houses tend to put their dogs to toilet in the garden rather than take them for a walk.

I had a dog in a flat - the flat had a garden!

> I beleive pets who have owners in flats are sometimes better as they have to take their dogs for a walk to go to the toilet so may in fact be better owners where as some owners in houses tend to put their dogs to toilet in the garden rather than take them for a walk. This quote is from Cesar Milan a dog phycologist who i happen to agree with wholeheartedly.

i completely and utterly agree. Two members of a family who i am close to (as described in one of my earlyer posts) has a number of dogs themselves and NEVER have walked them but they think they are good dog owners because they have big houses with big gardens :o and believe becasue of this they do not need to walk the dogs (one has up to 6 dogs :o) complete opposite to a dog ina flat but irresponsible dog owners compared to some people in a flat with dogs.

I've got 4 dogs in a flat ....... my flat also has a garden - a very big garden !!

people have dogs in bungalows, and small houses, some people dont walk their dogs, and yet it is people who have dogs in a flat who get crizisised alot by society :( But then again i suppose we dont always no the circumstances.

As you say Jean of course it is up to you who you sell to.

Puppy toilet training is a good point. I got around it by having some time off and then my upstairs neighbour (yes I lived in a flat) when I went back to work would let her out in the garden (and sit with her for hours, although I never asked him to do this!). This was on top of the time I would come back from work midday as I previously mentioned.

And realistically even people who don't work DO leave the house at some point for outings or appointments etc.

I think the real point is the people and the arrangements and sacrifices that the owners are prepared to make. As I have said I had suitable arrangements and support from friends and neighbours, I was lucky. Also I didn't (and still) don't go out much other than with the dogs, I am 25 but never been into clubbing, eating out or cinema and if I visited friends Roxy would always come with me. She is a happy, well trained and well rounded dog and the only thing that has upset her in her life was 2 months ago when we moved house! And strangely this was also the time when I became self employed through dog work. She has now finally settled in our new house and is back to her old self!

Jo

>This quote is from Cesar Milan a dog phycologist

>This quote is from Cesar Milan a dog phycologist

Sorry to choke on this!       Newbies, please, please note opinions on this aggressive man.

This is always included in the information pack that goes with my pups.  I won't type all of it, as you can probably google further info.  But.......

PUBLISHED BY THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF VETERINARY SURGEONS

Draft statement on punitive dog training techniques

Leading animal welfare, behaviour and veterinary organisations are warning of the dangers of using techniques for training dogs that can cause pain and fear, such as some of those seen used by 'the dog whisperer' Cesar Milan. 

Charities including the RSPCA, The Blue Cross, (Dogs Trust), Wood Green, WSPA.... have joined forces with the Kennel Club, veterinary organisations, such as BSAVA, BVA, ESVCE, ECVBM-CA...... and behaviour and training organisations such as the APBC and APDT, to voice serious concerns for dogs and significant risk to owners who  may copy them. 

unquote - and we all know how clueless dog owners have tried to copy CM and then needed to have a dog destroyed, after making it aggressive like CM.

>unquote - and we all know how clueless dog owners have tried to copy CM and then needed to have a dog destroyed, after making it aggressive like CM.

Yep; and I've held the dog while the lethal injection, needed because the dog has bitten three people since CM's methods were tried, is administered. It's not fun for anyone. His supporters need to think really hard about it.

> Yep; and I've held the dog while the lethal injection, needed because the dog has bitten three people since CM's methods were tried, is administered.

That is shocking Jean, but not a surprise to me, unfortunately.
He's single-handedly undone all the good work Ian Dunbar and others have done to bring kindness and understanding to training over the last 20 years, and it's all based on the flawed way he interprets dogs' body language.

Dogs are speaking to him, but he mistranslates them so badly - it's just like that Monty Python sketch when the phrasebook says "My hovercraft is full of eels" when someone is asking for directions. Let's say I would never employ him as an interpreter... and not just that but he also saps all the joy out of dog ownership, and leeches the trust from the dog/owner bond...

Lol jean your reply is laughble. If you do your research he is NOT a dog trainer. He is a dog behaviourist and is world renowned for helping dogs includings very aggressive breeds such the well known ones in americ. You need to get your facts straight before saying he is a bd trainer. He doesn't train dogs AT ALL.

hey y'all i live in a flat which has no garden i'm not a bad owner i take my dogs out for 15-20 mins in the morning a mid day toilet break and a long walk at tea time and my dogs seem so happy and settled... btw my flat is 3 bedrooms the largest in the block so there not cooped up in a dinky matchbox flat

and at katalina yes cesar is a dog behaourist and in my opinioon a very good one

More fool to the niave dog owners for trying to do it theirselves instead of getting  proffessional in. Cesar always says to get proffessional help and NOT try to do it yourself. How is that HIS fault when dogs are aggressive because novice owners try and do it thierself not knowing what they are getting themselves into.

>Lol jean your reply is laughble. If you do your research he is NOT a dog trainer. He is a dog behaviourist and is world renowned for helping dogs includings very aggressive breeds such the well known ones in americ. You need to get your facts straight before saying he is a bd trainer. He doesn't train dogs AT ALL.

Why have you replied to my post about putting dogs to sleep in this way? It most certainly isn't laughable.

>Lol jean your reply is laughble

There is no need to be rude.  The facts were released by the British Veterinary Association (and all the others mentioned) and is an official statement.  It was released due to his agression and outdated methods of dominating dogs.  So, I didn't say anything, I left it up to others to see what officialdom says about him.  You need to get your facts straight (and learn some manners.)

Cesar isn't the reson dogs are put to sleep because the dogs have turned agressive. They hve turned aggressive becuse of the owners trying to copy his methods not knowing what they are doing and not doing things with  proffessional. It is not cesar that has caused this but the owners. Cesar is not aggressive either he is showing the dogs he is pack leader for them to follow him like dogs do in the natural way of things. He always explins his methods and what the dog is thinking. He has worked with dogs since childhood and hs world renowned success. Top hollywood celebrities use him as he is so successfull. I don't beleive putting dogs to sleep is laughable either especially when it is down to stupidity. I meant what is laughable was the statement about the person you made that he was very aggressive.

>He always explins his methods and what the dog is thinking.

And so many times what he says the dog is thinking is totally at odds with the body language the dog is displaying - he gets it very, very wrong. That added to the way he sets the dogs up to fail, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. Sadly to the average naive petowner he's very plausible because he's such a good showman. But he's not kind to dogs or good for them. He's single-handedly set dog training and understanding back about 20 years.

> Cesar is not aggressive either he is showing the dogs he is pack leader for them to follow him like dogs do in the natural way of things.

I've watched many of his shows, have you also noticed how he doesn't use his standard methods on dogs such as Mastiffs?? The very reactive Boerboel (sp), Nazir, was 'rehabilitated' through socialisation and rewards to make positive associaitons.
A very frightened dog that had been kept for years in a cage in a laboratory,was not treated like usual by CM - why??? If CM is just showing he is the 'leader' then surely the usual approach would have given the firghtened dog confidance to knowit now had a strong leader. CM knew his usual approach was far to harsh to try on an allready terified dog.

Seems funny how dogs with the power and mindset to not put up with any forms of bullying or confrontaion are treated differently by him.

If his usual tecniques are the 'natural' way for dogs, then ALL dogs would know this and 'fall in line', but that's not what he does, he tailors his approach to the individual dog, this shows us clearly that he is NOT using any universal dog language or physcology, it shows us he is using bullying tactics on dogs he canget away with it on.
Dog language and behaviour is universal, eg. a chi can lip lick and an approaching Mastiff will know what the chi is saying. This sort of universal language can be seen in many dogs on the end of CMs methods, showing clearly they are trying to calm him, to make him stop.

Universal language does not need to be altered to suit each individual - it is UNIVERSAL. Yet he changes his methods to suit the individual dog, ergo, he is not using any universal language. He is a bully and that is why he will not use his methods on some types of dog - they will not be bullied.

I think when a body such as the RCVS are moved to make such a statement you have to take it seriously.

> Cesar is not aggressive either he is showing the dogs he is pack leader for them to follow him like dogs do in the natural way of things.

No, he isn't.  Nothing he does is the "natural" way of things for dogs.  His hiss is completely absent in dog behaviour in any way shape or form.  His pinning of dogs, in dog language, is a very clear, unmistakeable message to the dog that the human is extremely aggressive, unpredictable and is going to hurt it.  Yet he claims it is calming the dog down - rubbish.  Anything but.  The dogs stop moving because they don't want to be seriously injured or hurt, which is what that maneuvre leads them to believe.

His whole system of knowledge is flawed - his is based on debunked wolf behaviour models, which themselves were based on captive packs made up of unrelated individuals, which did not behave in any way like a natural wolf pack.  Aggression in that situation was to be expected as the wolves would have been extremely stressed.  Dogs simply do not behave the way he thinks they do, and that has been stated repeatedly by many renowned behaviourists, as well as the very people who came up with dominance/pack theory of behaviour in the first place.  Even the main public proponent of dominance towards humans, from dogs, a trainer himself, renounced the idea completely before he died.

I've seen him kick dogs (no, not 'tap' with his foot - kick); I've seen him strangle dogs, one to the point of almost passing out; he puts them is situations so stressful that they simply shut down and don't do anything, which he then declares a success despite the myriad of stress signals the dog continues to give off.

Last time I watched him, he was explaining how the two dogs behind him that were sitting completely still were in a state of 'calm submissive energy'; utter tosh.  Both dogs were panting heavily through stress, their entire bodies denoted stress; they were looking at him sideways or avoiding eye contact altogether, ears flat to their heads, so on and so forth - nothing but signs of severe stress, following the application of his methods.  The reason he is successful is because Joe Public, like him, cannot read canine body language - just as he sees a calm dog, so do they, and deem him brilliant.  We see the horrendously stressed out dog that is not moving for fear of what might happen if it does; Joe Public just sees a dog that isn't behaving badly any more and sadly, that's all a lot of people care about.

He isn't a trainer or a psychologist (you'd be needing a degree for that, he doesn't have one) or a behaviourist either (you'd need to understand dog behaviour, he categorically does not or he would not go on and on about dominance or 'calm submissive' ).

What he IS is a very talented showman with a charming smile and all the skill of an illusionist with his sleight of hand and misdirection - he says he is doing one thing when he is actually doing entirely another.

You may not see him shout or look overtly aggressive but then you are missing his body language in a pretty massive way. Dogs DONT miss this, dogs are highly tuned to reading body language (something we humans are so poor at we need magazine articles to tell us how to do it!) so they pick up on his VERY threatening, aggressive, domineering, bullying body language and actions and respond accordingly.

If you doubt that body language has that power, just try standing too close to someone, leaning in a little too much to speak to them, holding their eye contact a bit too long and see how quickly they feel uncomfortable and try to back away (and hve someone do this to you and see how you feel) - and thats just slightly 'rude' body language, ie not respecting personal boundaries,. Now imagine someone was actually feeling threatening and aggressive towards you. It is perfectly possible to frighten and dominate, bully and threaten an animal without ever raising your voice or a fist!

Well thats your opinions and i've got mine. He does give dogs more confidence he is called in to dogs that are timid and nervous and uses methods to help them.Do you think that all these people would call him in if he bullied these dogs. Get real people. What he doesn't know bout dogs isn't worth knowing. He has had more success than other dog whisperers put together. He  can work with a pit bull down to a small breed dog. He judges which methods will work best with each individual dog it's not that he will only use certain methods with  certain breed. If it's giving a nervous dog more confidence to a dog with aggression issues he uses which ever method he sees fit. I have also watched all his programmes and he does not KICK to hurt them. You really think they would put it on tv if he hurt those dogs or bullied them. I don't think so somehow.

> What he doesn't know bout dogs isn't worth knowing.

I would say the opposite is true. What he knows about dogs isn't worth knowing - he knows how to bully them and make them so scared they shut down, he knows how to use electric shock collars, prong collars and his own illusion collar to hurt dogs - I don't want to know any of that.

> He judges which methods will work best with each individual dog it's not that he will only use certain methods with  certain breed.

He says his methods are about being a 'pack leader', the way to instill that would be the same no matter what the breed of dog IF dogs believed that a specific set of behaviours were what a pack leader does.
An 'alpha roll' is not really termed very well, a dog that is willing to 'submit' to another will roll on it's own, not be forced over. A dog forcing another dog over is about physical bullying - a dog that wants to avoid any conflict will not put up much of a fight, a dog that does not want to be phsically bullied will fight back. Hence the reason CM will not be seen to even try to alpha-roll a dog such as a Mastiff.

I don't agree that he knows nothing about dogs, I believe he does know quite a bit about dogs, can read them well - that is how he usually can pick out which dogs he can bully for TV and which ones to be more carefull with :(

> He  can work with a pit bull down to a small breed dog.

A Pitbull is a people-friendly dog that enjoys training, not really a challange for anyone to train. As I have said, CM changes his appraoch around mastiff-type dogs, these dogs are independant thinkers, that can not be bullied, they are not out to please people. Why would CM change his appraoch with these dogs if his appraoch is not usually bully-boy tactics???

>Do you think that all these people would call him in if he bullied these dogs.

Yes, because he's got a very good publicity machine.

>What he doesn't know bout dogs isn't worth knowing.

He certainly knows how to bully them and wind them up specifically so he can throttle them into unconsciousness; it's been filmed several times with different dogs.

>You really think they would put it on tv if he hurt those dogs or bullied them.

Yes - people who don't realise what they're watching are impressed with his showmanship.

jean all those answers come on you know that isn't true throttle a dog where is all this coming from. Because someone doesn't have the same opinion you have to lie? As for the publicity machine it is not it is about people beleiving in him. In order to have  so called machine you have to have people who have faith and respect for you being good at your job in the first place.  s for seeing dogs throttled into unconsicouness several times on his programmes i would like to know which ones s i hve watched them all and this hs never hppened so your comments don't hold ny water. As for the mastiffs as i have said before he uses different techniques to different dogs. Need i have to repeat in every post.

Katalina, you may have your opinion, but the comments on here are not just the opinions of the other people on here, they are the opinions of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons also of the leading animal welfare, behaviour and veterinary organisations, and Charities including the RSPCA, The Blue Cross, (Dogs Trust), Wood Green, WSPA.... the Kennel Club, veterinary organisations, such as BSAVA, BVA, ESVCE, ECVBM-CA...... and behaviour and training organisations such as the APBC and APDT.

Surely these people and associations know what they are talking about  - (even if you think the people on this forum don't). Or do you think you know better than all of them.

> You really think they would put it on tv if he hurt those dogs or bullied them. I don't think so somehow.

If his methods are so great, why have so many major charities and welfare groups released the statement clearly explaining their stance against such methods?  And why has he been banned from TV in Italy (as I understand it)?

Not one other trainer or behaviourist has garnered such a massive and unanimous response from all those bodies.

And yes - he does kick to hurt.  I have seen him kick a dog in the stomach because it started to react - a situation which he himself set up so that the dog would react.  I've also seen him kick a dog in the abdomen because it was looking interested in another dog walking past, even though he had it on a headcollar and a lead so short it couldn't have gone anywhere near the dog anyway (and to boot, was friendly - just overexcited about trying to greet).

As I said in my last post, people call him in because like him, they do not understand behaviour and body language - all they see is a dog that's no longer doing the "bad" behaviour.  They don't see that it's not doing it any more because it's too stressed and afraid to do anything.  He seems to see the opposite of what's going on - I remember the first ever episode I saw, there was a titchy pit bull bitch in his "red zone" being "aggressive" to other dogs and trying to "attack" them.  I've put the quote marks in for good reason - the dog was actually incredibly friendly, just with no self control and way OTT in her attempts to greet and play.  By the time he'd finished with her she was terrified, and totally shut down.  But of course, that meant she wasn't throwing herself towards other dogs any more (through fear of being slammed to the ground again) - ergo, "success".

Strangling

Kicking