I agree, Brainless.  It worries me when we see so many threads concerning difficulties in achieving a mating be it difficulties with seasons, libido or the mechanics of mating. 
Tweaking and squeaking animals through the process does not a healthy population make.

>don't blame the breeders blame the kennel club for allowing the breed standards to be the way they are, some bitches couldn't possibly pass a litter due to head and/or front end size, all due to the breed standards as said before

It's the breeders who primarily write the standards; I rmember some 20 year ago the outcry when the KC overruled the bulldog clubs and removed the phrase 'the bigger the better' from the Head clause of the standard, to encourage natural whelping.

> don't blame the breeders blame the kennel club for allowing the breed standards to be the way they are,

No breed standard calls for extremes, but have been interpreted by judges over the years as more of any desired characteristic is better, these then become more common place and rewarded by judges so breeders will wish to perpetuate them, often unconsciously as many have not been around long enough to see the changes taking place.

They say the average involvement of people in dogs is 5 years .

Often long term old breeders are laughed at for keeping to an old fashioned or less glamorous type, and eventually even those who can see it happening can do little to stem the tide and have to use what is available in the gene pool.

This doesn't just happen in the showring but with some working strains of breeds.  The working Malinois is far removed from the original to produce a hard driven Police dog, totally unsuitable as a companion or herding dog.  Trials bred Working Springers and Labradors bred purely for Field Trials competition, which are far too hot to handle for a casual days shooting by the average country person who likes to shoot, more like a Ferrari than a landrover.  Racing Greyhounds look nothing like the original coursing dogs shown in old masters paintings, but the show version does still look like them.

> I rmember some 20 year ago the outcry when the KC overruled the bulldog clubs and removed the phrase 'the bigger the better' from the Head clause of the standard, to encourage natural whelping.

Just thinking aloud, but would encouraging more width at the hips ("childbearing hips"!) help with whelping? I realise that might engender even more problems, but a breed with an exaggerated head size and tiny "snake-hips" is never going to have much of a chance to whelp naturally.

Originally it would be the breed originators/clubs that drew up standards, but the Kennel club have long since taken them over and breed clubs cannot make any changes unless the kennel club allows.

Problem is that at the beginning the founders knew what they were hoping to achieve, but those who have come after have only what was written down, and it has gone like Chinese whispers in many cases.

It's interesting that in some of the numerically smaller breed s the dogs seem to change little over the decades, and there are huge changes in some of the popular breeds.  Perhaps with smaller numbers of people it is easier to keep to a consensus, and not so much to be gained from having something different to be noticed (and therefore maybe win)?

Some quite wholesale changes were made to the Bulldog standard a few years ago, though this is too soon to see any changes in the dogs seen in the ring as ti isn't even one generation.

> They say the average involvement of people in dogs is 5 years

Causing a whole raft of short sighted decisions made to get wins quickly.

Ive been critisised for suggesting that hormone testing, ovulation pads, prophylactic ABs, AI, c-sections and other major interventions were short sighted and perhaps mis-placed in a long term breeding plan. Together with a lucrative trade in the covering up temperament faults by clever handling techniques, many breeders and exibitors are fooling themselves.... and the goal of achieving a consistantly stable, self whelping, fertile dog is slipping away from many breeders and specific breeds.

If this forum had a "like" button. I would have liked the last 10 or so posts :-)

Really interesting debate, so do you have to begrudgingly admit that JH actually has a point ?

> so do you have to begrudgingly admit that JH actually has a point ?

I have always said she has a point in so far as a small number of breeds have a problem but I certainly would not agree with her perception, or rather the perception she chooses to project, that this is wide spread through pedigree breeds nor with her attitude to the Kennel Club and the role they play.

> Really interesting debate, so do you have to begrudgingly admit that JH actually has a point ?

A point, but the major issues in canine welfare and health are the commercial and casual breeding of puppies and irresponsible ownership of such easily obtained puppies.

As Steve Dean pointed out recently the KC registered dogs are actually a minority of the canine population, and those bred and shown are an even smaller proportion.

>Just thinking aloud, but would encouraging more width at the hips ("childbearing hips"!) help with whelping?

:-)  :-)  :-)

Well, it is something that I have been working toward for my toy breed, and, after my litter last summer, would say that you hit the nail on the head!  To actually work to a size that fits the breed standard (4-6lbs) and breed for the wider pelvis, has worked for me. 

Funnily enough, I have always called them childbearing hips too, even if it sounds daft for the breed.  I actually had my own vet check last years bitch, as I didn't want to be wrong, and knowingly mate a bitch that needed surgery.  Doubting my own opinion?  Or just being extra cautious?  Not sure, but I had her pelvis checked 3 times before she was actually mated.

To watch a bitch whelp so easily was a total delight.  So your childbearing hips theory is something I have thought for years.

It is very difficult to take yourself outside of a situation and look down upon it objectively. Being wrenched out of a well established 'groove' was very uncomfortable and many of us took it as a personal afront.
But inventing solutions to problems you have self created, is a very human trait and inventing cradles for bulldogs to facilitate mating must have seemed perfectly logical to those who had got into that situation. Many so called 'achievments' in breeds eg a massive head, shorter and shorter legs, enormous coats, shorter faces etc must all seem like hitting the jackpot if they are taken as stand alone 'improvements' to their peers.

Over the years I have often thought of some dog related scenarios as 'a documentry wating to happen' .....long before PDE

>> Causing a whole raft of short sighted decisions made to get wins quickly.

I am told the average involvement in cats is about the same or less, and believe it or not, in small animals (hamsters, rats etc) too.

So, so, so difficult when someone may have mega influence in one way or another for just a short space of time... influencing looks, breeding decisions and so on; while those who genuinely serve, merely stand and wait :)

> Hayley, the Kennel Club do not write the standards the breed clubs do and to that extend it is the breeders that has got such breeds into this predicament.

Exactly. And the standards only really cover how a dog should look and don't say anything about the reproductive ability of the dogs. It is the breeders who are causing these problems by allowing dogs to breed who can't reproduce naturally.

Although I also think that the way we breed and look after our dogs today also plays a part. If you look at how dog breeding was done years ago. dogs which didn't make the grade either through looks, temperament, breeding ability etc were discarded from the breeding programme. Either by rehoming or euthanasia. Today there is societal pressure to keep all your dogs even if they don't make the grade. and as few people can afford to have multiple dogs then there is a greater temptation to just breed from what you have even if it is not ideal.

I really believe that as a society we have got so used to  blaming the powers that be for all our problems as well. We really need to start taking responsibility for our own actions again rather than saying the KC should do this, the government should do that.

Firstly I think that you absolutely must get your bitch indoors. Choose a room that is warm and suitable (i.e. no draughts not too much human traffic, has daylight etc etc etc and power points for electric ) set up her whelping box and start to get her used to being in there with some vet bed from week 7 / 8.  Feed her there and treat her there so she feels happy and content in that environment. .  . also buy a heat pad and or a heat lamp as the puppies won't do well with just radiators at room temprature if we have a cold spell (which we have). Next get yourself a 'mentor' - someone in your breed who has bred many litters and knows the idiosynchrasies of that breed and their whelping issues and of their newborns. This person should be happy to advise you all through the remainder of the pregnancy, the birth and the first few weeks of the puppies lives and hopefully more.  Next get yourself several books on dog breeding and looking after newborn puppies (including the 'Book of the Bitch' ) from these books you will gather all the equipment you may need to help Mum and  the puppies in their new lives for the first few weeks. You say you have a vet now? Keep the vet updated with changes that may indicate the puppies are near time. But please please please do not leave the Mum to be outside any longer in this harsh weather.

ladies and gents, this post is really getting out of control.  I have three of these beautiful dogs, yes, I have a shed in the garden....please do not imagine the worst, I have two 250w heat lamps in the shed, its dry and warm.  Maya, the pregnant bitch is living indoor now since we found out she is pregnant.  I have a 30 " square whelping box with a alum heat pad from petnap and she is very comfy sleeping in the whelping box.

The other twos spend majority of the time indoor during the day unless bad weather, but sleeps in the shed at night with the heat lamps.  They are well fed and wormed monthly.  All three are registered with my local vet.  They are really happy dogs in this household.  Yes, I do have demanding job, who hasnt ?  But you dont know my family situation and difficult to see how you could judge.  

Maya been scanned twice and she has another consultation on 24th before xmas closing on vet advice.  The vet opens again on 27th.  Vet has already send the details to vetnow( surrey after hours vet service)  just in case.   I am doing everything I can, just hope that everything will be fine.

I do apologise if my original post was not clear, but come on, I placed the post at midnight and was thinking just to seek advice instead of give a long story about my circumstances. 

To those that criticise my decision to breed- you have the bitch interest at heart and I do take onboard of concerns expressed. You simply dont know me well enough to make any opinion. But, yes, on reflection, my original post was perhaps...looking for 'trouble' to post in here.

And, please leave Katalina alone, she is entitled to her opinion and doesnt deserved to be treated that way.

Finally, have a bit of faith in novice like me, we lack the expert experience but that does not mean we dont look after our pet.    In comparison to your experts, my knowledge of pedigree line is probably negligible. But both male and bitch are pedigree line with several champs.  They are both eye tested, but not hip scored. 

i hope this answer all those concerned about the welfare of the dogs.  Thanks to those offering helpful advice.   And I hope we can all move to different topic such as what to feed a pregnant bitch!

Maya was on raw diet and dry food daily.  But since she is pregnant I am now semi cook the raw meat- beef and chicken plus an egg every day with a bit of cheese. i am not adding any extra vitamin and been advised to steer clear from calcium supplement.   She gone off food for few days and I was very worried, hence I took her to the vet.  She had a blood test and scan the second time, everything came back fine.  Vet suspected indigestion, and prescribed meds, 2 days later her appetite is back. Now she has small meal portions, but three times a day. I find that if i feed her too much she would become uncomfortable, so smaller portions.

>Maya was on raw diet and dry food daily.  But since she is pregnant I am now semi cook the raw meat- beef and chicken plus an egg every day with a bit of cheese. i am not adding any extra vitamin and been advised to steer clear from calcium supplement.   She gone off food for few days and I was very worried, hence I took her to the vet.  She had a blood test and scan the second time, everything came back fine.  Vet suspected indigestion, and prescribed meds, 2 days later her appetite is back. Now she has small meal portions, but three times a day. I find that if i feed her too much she would become uncomfortable, so smaller portions.

You are doing the right thing by giving small portions but more frequently.  Many bitches have difficulty in getting huge meals down them when they are packed out tightly.  And I have never given supplements, believing that it shouldn't be needed if feeding a good nutritious food.  Don't get too strung out if your girl appears to be going off food.  Many of us have worried, thinking there will be all sorts of problems, and many bitches appear to starve themselves at some point during pregnancy.  They do it to worry us.  :-)

While I always leave dry food available (puppy version) for my pregnant bitches, I too feed loads of protein, which you are obviously doing.  Now, just in case you haven't thought about it, remember that she can totally go off dry food after whelping.  A bitch can get a very sore mouth from cleaning pups, and I find they eat far more If I get white fish fillets and poach in milk.  Obviously, any soft food will be welcomed.  It is such a simple thing that newbies often don't think about.  And if you already know about sore mouths, I apologise, I am not trying to tell you how to suck eggs!

I tried to give her some puppy dry food but she wont have none of it.  She seems to become quite fussy with her food, usually she is a piggy.  So i boil chicken breast fillets to give her extra protein.   she also seems to like the nutro-lac powder i bought for pups, so if she lost her appetite I give her a bit of milk, she seems to take that well. 

During the 3 days when she completely gone off food she also hardly drink any water.  Thank god her appetite is back.