Hi there

i have a small breed dog due to whelp on Christmas day. With this breed C section is a must hence looking for a reliable vet.  We bred her pver 5 days so i am not able to accurate calculate the actual due date, and i dont fancy out of hours surgery as no doubt the vet bill would be high.  A breeder suggested c section few days earlier would be fine.  Is she right ?  Also, could someone recommend me a knowledgeable vet in guildford area ?  thanks in advance 

> i dont fancy out of hours surgery as no doubt the vet bill would be high.

I have a couple of small breeds, and would only have a C-section if absolutely necessary.  I have paid £1,086 for a middle of the night op.  It's something you accept if you go in for some breeds.  I don't ever purposely mate a bitch that I know will definitely require a section.

I am very, very concerned that you are not already registered with a vet that knows this bitch.  As she could easily suffer from inertia, you would be in dire straits if you aren't aleady registered.  Would you recognise inertia if she started a week early (which is perfectly likely.)

Did you not use a local vet when she had her health tests done?

With this breed C section is a must
Has the state of some breeds really come to this? This is the sort of statement that gives JH her amuniton. I cannot believe that you have mated a bitch and now just 2 weeks before she is due in a breed that so called Needs a C section decided to look for a vet. This should have all been done before breeding. Do you not have a vet you use all the time? Or are you just looking for the cheapest way and planning this  C section to avoid having to pay a possible premium if she needs help out of hours. The costs incurred from "emergency treatment" such as this "should" be are all part of what a sensible breeder plans for. Whatever breed you have all the contingency plans should be in place well before embarking on a litter. I am horrified to think that you have been told that it is "Normal" for your breed to need a section, and more so to find you have accepted this fact without challenge.  Maybe nature is telling you that this breed of dog is not viable and if left to nature to decide it would die out (In my opinion a good thing, a dog breed that cannot reproduce without mans heavy handed intervention is a freak) Breeding a litter can be expensive, heartbreaking, wonderful and hard work. Sometimes a section is needed as an emergency for various reasons but never should be a matter of course. I would like to think that the lovers of dogs would not change the nature of a breed to such an extent that it could not reproduce with out surgery. Obviously I live in a dream world.
Aileen

I thought that I had read about it being fairly standard practice to have Xrays done to judge a bitches pelvic capacity before mating her. Or have I misunderstood.
In my breed C sections are the exception rather than the rule,so I have little experience of them apart from an out of hours emergency section on my older bitch.

thanks you all for your helpful comment.  My usual vet is local vet who I find not very helpful.  They are closed over xmas and referred to an out of hour service, whom i had no contact and dont know much about.  Hence I am on here asking if you know of a KNOWLEDGEABLE vet to recommend me.  I off remark about mid night surgery to avoid is mere a statement. This particular breed do require c section, I am not able to name the breed as its against forum rules, but generally breed such as english bulldog do need c section, if any of one disagree then perhaps you more knowledgable than a clinically qualified vet.  By the way, I am here to ask for a recommendation of a good vet in my area not to be lectured on and to be honest, these criticisms are completely unjustified and unwarranted.  Get a life! Nothing good or positive then please do not comment.  This forum is intended to help share knowledge and learn from one another, not lecturing.  like i said, get a life. 

On the last occasion she had a phantom pregnancy, so this time round we only got her scanned last night at 5 weeks, so now we contacted our vet and been told vet surgery closed over festive period.  Hence this post.

I'm sorry but I have little to add to this thread as I am with Merlot on this.
I find the thought of anyone mating a bitch with the expectation of a C section absolutely horrifying. It is traumatic enough for the bitch when it has to be done for emergency reasons. But to go ahead with breeding when you know it will probably be necessary is disgraceful. I realise that you are not alone in this, but it does not make it any more excusable. Poor bitch :(

> Get a life! Nothing good or positive then please do not comment.

My least favourite kind of post.

The " tell me now what I want to know - but dont give an opinion"

You have every right to your own opinion - just as long as it agrees with mine lol

Like that sassinak however now his bitch is in this position what would people advise to help the bitch so she has the best possible outcome for her and the pups

Yes ok...he pays up to use his out of hours service. Most people have to.

sounds fine to me :) Is that not what you prepare for when breeding.... emergencies ? btw are there breeds that require a c section ? seems so wrong to require one to reproduce

I've heard that it's fairly common in some lines of bulldogs and I think some of the 'teacup' dogs need them :(

hmmm very sad

Yes I think so, but there is going to be a class of vet that sees them as money spinners and so won't try to dissuade them from breeding.
I know that there are breeders now who are only breeding from self whelping bitches to try and improve the situation, but it will be a slow process.

so now we contacted our vet and been told vet surgery closed over festive period.  Hence this post.

It's very rare these days for vets to do their own out of hours -it has become pretty much a 9-5 job for Monday to Friday, with Vets Now covering out of hours. Many surgeries are reporting that they can't even get staff unless they can guarantee NO out of hours work. Sad but true -we've entered a new era. I have been unable myself to get a vet within a good distance for me that does their own out of hours. Not a lot that can be done about it except plan ahead and always be prepared for the unexpected. We used to be able to get to see our usual vet at any time  and in emergencies say "We'll pay you Monday", now we know we have to travel to a different practice to see Vets Now and have to have money available there and then.

Judgments aside, your little girl needs to be booked in with a vet before she whelps.  I don't think it is wise to have a c-section before she is due as premature puppies are very difficult, and I#m not sure any vet would do this anyhow.

Can you book into your emergency out of hours vet surgery in advance? 

I think in these circumstances you just have to accept that the vet costs will be higher than normal, it's far more peace of mind to have your little mum and pups back at the end of the day with larger vet bill than to lose her or/and her pups because you're trying to economise.

I hope it all goes well and you are not too disheartened by some replies.  It's done now and you just have to do the right thing for your little bitch and pups.

Very good luck with the little Christmas babies.

Quoted from another breeder in the same breed

" While natural delivery may be preferable, not many breeders are willing to risk the loss of any puppies which may be caught in the birth canal, or the dangers of a last minute emergency surgery.

Count down to the delivery begins aproximately 59 days after mating. Bitches can deliver anywhere from 58 days to 62, with a great deal of variance among bitches. Several methods can be used to decide on the bitch's most optimum time for delivery. 24 hours before the bitch is due to whelp, her temperature drops up to several full degrees. If that temperature remains low, chances are very good the bitch will go into labour within 24 - 48 hours. Progesterone levels may also be used to determine when the bitch is readying herself for labour, as can certain tell tale instinctive behaviours, such as nesting, digging and heavy panting. There are some breeders who simply schedule the C Section date based on their records of when the bitch was bred, but this is highly unreliable, and can result in taking puppies too early, or in the bitch going into hard labour and becoming distressed.
We prefer to monitor temperature and watch carefully for the bitch's own signs of labour. Once that begins, we prepare to bring her in to our vet."

So it would seem that you should have financial contingencies for any emergency, especially since you mated her over 5 days knowing that you would have difficulty determining dates.. Scheduling a section purely for financial reasons, when you have no idea of due whelping date is not very responsible :-(

Get hold of your breed club and ask if they know of reliable vets in your area that you can approach .

You say you had her scanned last night at 5 weeks, then that doesn't make her due until first week of January, so hopefully it won't be over the Christmas/New Year period.

> Yes ok...he pays up to use his out of hours service. Most people have to.

Quite so,  bitches rarely are accommodating enough to require a C section in practise hours (well they  have a 1 in 3 chance), certainly the bitch should be given the opportunity of self whelping so should not have a C section until labour is underway, and the timing of that cannot be predicted.

the our of hours vet should e contacted to advise them that a C section may be needed so that they are aware and if labour fails to progress or difficulties occur then the Poster will know the drill for getting her seen ASAP, and the Vet will already have basic details Posters name address, breed, bitches details and breeding history.

I am with some of the other posters and find the idea of elective C sections totally unacceptable, and the aim in a breed with high C section rate is to actively select for self whelping.  this hopefully will happen more with the Kennel Club only allowing two litters born by section to be registered from a bitch.

As the reasons for sections are varied, with malpresentations or illness not being inherited then to allow a second litter after a section is acceptable, and very likely a normal whelping will be the result second time around, but if a bitch needs a second section then her breeding career should quite rightly be terminated and serious thought given as to whether any of her daughters should be used for breeding.

I read the OP's request to be more that he is not too impressed with his current vet and that he preferrred a vet who did their own OOH service.  Nothing too wrong in having these concerns.  Makes me glad of my vet who do still do their own OOH and are still of the 'I'll pay you Monday' ilk if you do have to use OOH.

However, I do share others concerns re breeds which 'need' c sections and can only hope there are many breeders who are trying to develop self whelping lines.

I am in a large breed who rarely need a C section, but after reading this section wondered how would the KC know how many C sections a bitch had had ??
Will it be to the breeder signing a declaration at the time of registration ? If so would it not be open to abuse ?
It is quite common now for BYB to register one litter with the KC and another with Dog Lovers to get round the rules.
I think the name Dog Lovers is completely wrong as most people that register with this organisation are anything but dog lovers.
I hope the little bitch comes through having her puppies safe and sound, but I find it hard to understand how anyone would mate a bitch knowing she is likely to have to have a C section. Breeding is such a risk for our precious girls anyway and should never be undertaken lightly !!!!

Having read what breed this is, surely they can't all need c sections as the usual free sites like Gumtree always seem to have litters!  Surely buying a breed that may be prone to CS then is it not preferable to buy from lines that self welp? 

These are not bulldogs but their smaller, French cousins. At around £1800 - £ 2000 each I think it highly unlikely to be many litters on Gumtree.

I am in a large breed who rarely need a C section, but after reading this section wondered how would the KC know how many C sections a bitch had had ??
Will it be to the breeder signing a declaration at the time of registration ? If so would it not be open to abuse ?

No, vets now have to report it to the KC.

These are not bulldogs but their smaller, French cousins. At around £1800 - £ 2000 each I think it highly unlikely to be many litters on Gumtree.

i did know the breed, I saw this post before the breed was removed, 63 litters on GT, 280 on pet4homes, 218 on Oodle, 139 on epupz.  I'm sure some will be duplicate ads, or even stud services as I didn't take time to look properly but I can assure you that there are plenty of litters advertised in these sites.  It's a very sad state of affairs for all breeds but even more so for a breed likely to need a CS.  I know that is the price of a well bred puppy, health tested parents and reared properly but prices are as low as £600 on these sites.  I am not interested in the breed, but have seen them on GT, so if they're there then bound to be on all the others sites too, and they are :-(

I fear they will become the next 'Pug' for byb..

> No, vets now have to report it to the KC

just wondering how this works? for a start my vet doesn't know all my dogs registered names. I have their hips done at a different vet. My vet has never asked even if my dogs are registered with the KC. Whats to stop someone just saying their dog is not kc registered if the  vet asks?

I hope you find  vet soon, if not I'd gert to know the out of hours vet that's been recommended to you.  Will you try a natural whelp first and CS if needed.

I had a dog scanned last night (at 6 wks) and went into a panic as they said it might be a singleton and my thoughts were oh no NOT a possible CS.  I already do know what my vet charges in and out of hours if CS is needed.  Mine are due at christmas so wouldn't escape the bills either way, its just something I've factored in for emergencies.  I am lucky that the vet does their own out of hours.

Hope it works out

My vet is the local farm animal vets. They have been really good with my dogs (as well as with my horses and chickens etc) their charges are very reasonable and they do their own out of hours. I wouldn't change for anything :)

Donaldtiong , I believe we may have the same breed , please don't just go and book a c section . I believe there are a lot of these gorgeous bitches having sections pre booked when they more often than not could self whelp. I have a self whelping line but am always prepared to pay the high cost of an emergency section if required ( which can happen in any breed ) , thankfully for my girls' sake its never been needed. Do you not have a mentor in the breed who can help you whelp your bitch ?
I would have put a lot of thought into this before breeding , I hope for your girls sake that you have made the vet aware when she is due and do the right thing by her . :)

I think she already had a CS at 18 months old with a previous owner but could have mis read the OP previous posts.http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1274825;hl=#pid1274825

>I am with some of the other posters and find the idea of elective C sections totally unacceptable, and the aim in a breed with high C section rate is to actively select for self whelping

And as a breeder of one of the breeds that is reknowned for needing C-sections, I am with a lot of folk finding it repulsive to purposely mate a bitch with the intention to cut her open.  My last litter of this particular breed, was born in the summer of 2010.  I took the bitch back on 3 seperate ocassions to check her pelvis size before she was eventually mated.

When I know how much effort I have put in over the years, and how long it has taken to get this far, I despair that some folk don't appear to be ethical when it comes to breeding.

I plod along quietly trying to improve the welfare of a breed, and have bitches spayed if a section is required (not even going as far as the 2 C-sections allowed by the KC.)

Things would improve a whole lot quicker if more breeders did the same.  It seems wrong to me that a bitch can win in the show ring, but not be used for breeding, because she would need a section.  It is possible to breed a bitch for both - I proved that last year, by breeding for a wide pelvis.  She is well within the correct size (for the new standard) and whelped easily.

I really wish more people would try selective breeding.  And forget about elective operations.

Three yrs ago I had a bitch due Xmas day from her 2nd of two matings, I took her in for a thorough check up and a scan the day before Xmas eve, all was well, 3 pups seen and not overly big and no evidence that she was
in labour, we went home and I brought her in bed with me and we had the best nights sleep for over a week and she went into labour an hour after we got up,first pup arrived at 23.40hrs and the last one at 02.50hrs. Like your girl mine had had a litter before but self whelped but I had a good amount in my dog account to cover any problems over the holiday period as there are many reasons for a bitch to not  self whelp future litters.

If I had been offered a bitch who had previously had a c/section in a breed where this procedure is common then I would have passed on the offer, whelping is nerve wracking enough without worrying about the past history of not self whelping.

I hope you find the right vet as this will be her final litter if she needs a 2nd c/section.

> This particular breed do require c section

There are no breeds in the UK that require a section.  Some breeds may tend towards them but this is not desirable and is exactly why the KC have introduced new systems under their fit for function scheme to limit this and hopefully one day these breeds will conform to the ideal of a section only ever being required for a malpresentation.

http://www.fitforfunction.org.uk/newsItem.asp?newsId=66

I can't see how the KC could enforce the two C sections rule unless DNA testing for all is introduced. My vet only knows my dogs by their pet names. I know several people who register their dogs with more than on Vet, so this could also be away of getting round the rules.
At an Open Show last year, I was chatting to a chap with a toy breed, long established breeder with many years of experience, he told me that it was common practise to keep two bitches from a litter, the smaller type to show and a larger sister to breed from.
The small bitch is then spayed, thus no reason to miss a show because of incovenient seasons and has the added advantage of not dropping her coat. Only the show bitch is registered with the KC and when her unregistered litter sister is bred from the puppies are registered as being from the show bitch. I suppose the unscroupulous will always find a way to break rules. But I do think that steps need to be taken to make life more difficult, and DNA and Microchipping/tattooing would be a step in the right direction.

> I can't see how the KC could enforce the two C sections rule unless DNA testing for all is introduced.

Clearly they can't but the agreement with the BVA suggests a combined will to see the rate reduced.  As long as some vets are recording details we should see, in time, a general improvement in section rates and the anatomical exagerations that lead to them.

Hi All

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.  This original post was placed on here because my local vet does not open during festive season and suggested that any emergency c section would be carried out by VetNow.  The reason i came on here was to ask if anyone would recommend a knowlegable vet in the area, its interesting to see how this catapult into moral debates about justification of c section and whether certain breed should allow to continue.  Its interesting reading and informative no doubt. 

I love bulldogs, ever since i was a child.  So i am not going to get into a debate whether it is morally wrong or irresponsible to reproduce such a breed.  This breed has been around for long long time, and the debate had been quite old and boring.  Not only bulldogs are difficult when it comes to whelping, there are some other related health issues no doubt you are very much aware of. 

The situation is that I have a pregnant bitch that require a knowledgable vet in surrey.  I could just use vetnow whether any on call vet would operate on her if necessary.  She is now registered with the Vetnow just in case. My current vet had faxed her medical history to vetnow in case we need them- which was only 2 visits for her annual injection and a past prescription of a course of antibiotic.   Notwithstanding this, I have found a vet in Franborough, the surgery has its own out of hours vet.   I am taking her in on Monday to register.  They will check her over and advise me further. 

Thank to those who came on here to make useful suggestions. 

This a little thought from beginner like me. 

This forum is full useful information and its one of the best canine forum in the country. Naturally beginner like me would ask for advise from experienced dog lovers from here, but by bombarding my post with criticisms without even knowing anything about me or my situation is least helpful.    Those that made criticisms on my lack of knowledge and experience perhaps should be reminded  that there was always the first time. We all learn from that first step, this is my first step of breeding a litter from my girl.  I have done as much research as I could but being a first timer, anxious as hell, trying to anticipate every worst senarios,especially over festive period.  I am sure you felt the same during your first litter.

I know your intention is good, trying to discourage certain breed or express concerns about a situation or engage in a healthy debate about the future of canine breeds etc.  But the only thing that you have achieve here is to drive the beginners away and put pups and mums at great risk.  In other words, whether you like it or not, the result is that you are no longer acting in anyone or animal interests.  I am by no means discouraging a healthy  debate about important issues, but perhaps you should consider starting a new post to start the debates, that way, you will not hijack my post, which is a post to seek advice.

Just a thought from a beginner. what do i know

> I am by no means discouraging a healthy  debate about important issues, but perhaps you should consider starting a new post to start the debates

I think we tend to take the view that every opportunity to discuss, inform, educate is a good one.   I think that all comes under the heading of advise :)
Most of us are very pleased to see people becoming interested in breeds, showing or working with their dogs and going on to take their part in maintaining their chosen breed, however, if exchanging information drives a novice away from breeding either before they are insufficiently informed or experienced or makes them reconsider perpetuating breeding practices that are no longer supported by the Kennel Club or responsible breeders then I doubt many of us would see that as a bad thing.

And no, I am not looking for elective c section,  try to avoid necessary surgery.  I dont think any vet would agree to elect c section.  But with this breed, more likely than not she would need a c section. I will let her try, but if it could not be avoided, the vet would operate on her.

I was not here to find a 'cheap vet' . My dog account is very well prepared.  I have 3 dogs living with me.  Boy ad 2 girls.  They are wormed monthly, never missed.  110 kilos of frozen kidneys, hearts, minced chicken, beef, lamb delivered every 7 weeks from landywood. Special rice cooker to semi cook their meats.  They are walked daily by my partner during the week and weekend by us.  All three of them are spoilt rotten in this household. There is no expenses spared.  I fully aware that money is not everything, but my point is, they are really cared for, and most of all, we love them.

so yes, we are very very excited about this coming litter.  3 pups and most likely we will keep one.  The other two already booked for other family members.

We are not dog breeders, we dont show them, we dont breed animals for sale. I have spent over £6000 for the three of them, not to mention the costs of up keep, 2 heat lamps in the shed through out winter, specially ordered food, vet bills, numerous quality furnitures destroyed by them!!  We just love this particular breed, knowing full well that they comes with problems and issues, but it is all worth it!!

> We are not dog breeders, we dont show them

If you produce puppies you are a breeder. 

stooge, i dont disagree with you.  but you need to understand this, put yourself in my shoes for a second.  I came on here for urgent advice as my girl only confirmed she is pregnant 2 days ago and my vet informed me he is closed over xmas.  My point is, i have a situation, please help.  Not to be criticised upon.   There is a time and place for such debate.  This post is not it. I needed advice, not unhelpful criticisms. I dont mean to upset anyone on here, but the fact is some of the comments are unhelpful and drive novice away. Whether you think that's justify so or not, the result is there. I am discouraged to seek help on here as I would not want any judgements been passed about me.  I am simply just a dog lover looking for advice.  Unlike a lot of you, I dont breed to sell for financial gain, whether to improve breed or show rings, at the end of the day, I dont make a penny from my pets.  what about you? How many dog breeders in here that regularly show dogs and charges enormous amount of money for pedigree pups.   Have you ever knowingly, intentionally breed a dog to sell for profit, whether its monetary gain or to advance breeding line, any the end of the day still profiting.  I dont do that. Anyway, they are our pets and we love them.

> Have you ever knowingly, intentionally breed a dog to sell for profit, whether its monetary gain or to advance breeding line

The aim of every responsible breeder should be to advance breeding lines.  Most of us regard our dogs as pets as well but showing is an important way of ensuring you are breeding from dogs of a standard to maintain the integrity of a breed both in type and health.  I think the fact that you regard this as in some way undesirable suggests you are a very long way off understanding responsible breeding yet.
Yes, we will sell puppies but, no, this will not be for the purpose of profit.  Any monies are invariably ploughed back into further showing, health tests, stud fees, etc.  Any profit is unlikely but can generally be regarded as incidental.

Quote donaldtiong:
"Unlike a lot of you, I dont breed to sell for financial gain"

You have completely misunderstood "us", the responsible breeders on this forum - breeding to sell for financial gain doesn't come into it at all!

My definition of responsible breeding is very different to yours. Both mum and dad from good pedigree line, both CAT tested.  They are well looked after and care for.  I am not an expert like you about advance breeding line what not.  I dont put so much energy into advancing a breeding line as i dont intend to breed often. Its just a litter. I have a demanding job, a family to care for and few animals to spoilt.  I have not got the time or the expert knowledge like yours to advance breeding line, presumably for showing.  "Any profit is unlikely but can generally be regarded as incidental." i am sure that is the case. ;-)   Thanks for your helpful input. 

> My definition of responsible breeding is very different to yours.

Clearly.

Hi Ridgielover, I did not mean to include all responsible breeders, I was merely referring to those who criticise me for breeding this breed and implied that I did that for financial gain, which I am not. I apologise if i have use a general term of 'you'. i have no issue about responsible breeding, why would I ?  The only reason i came on here was to avoid having an unknown  vet from out of hours vet service to operate on my girl in emergency situation.  Whether she would need the c section is a medical judgement by the vet, not by me.  But through my research, majority of this breed tend to need c section, so i was merely trying to pre-empt the worst case scenario which is a responsible thing to do right?  So far all the comments, well majority of the comments here had been about not to breed this breed, and why on earth i had not contacted the vet sooner or already why I hadnt registered with a vet etc.  My vet only decided veery recently on their opening hours over xmas period and the fact that we only found out she is pregnant after her scan on Tuesday. I am spending more time  defending the criticisms and explaining my circumstances then discussing which vet provides its own after hours in my area, which was the core of this post.  Like i said, this is the undesirable effect.  Novice came on here for specific advice, but none received, only judgemental criticisms. 

>My definition of responsible breeding is very different to yours.
>I dont put so much energy into advancing a breeding line as i dont intend to breed often. Its just a litter.

If you don't show or take part in working tests etc, what is the reason for breeding 'just a litter'?

Stooge, there is an old saying, nothing good and encouraging to say, dont say nothing.  Try that.  One can see that you spend a lot of time on this forum, wonder why is that.  Interesting to note you seem to make more criticisms than actually sharing your experiences and advice.  Anyway, have a lovely sunday and hopefully we all doing something constructive today.  nice chatting with you