> i have no issue about responsible breeding, why would I ? 

Donald, I am not sure you understand what responsible breeding is.
I have no issue about the financial side and have not commented on it.  My concern is your, self acknowledged, lack of knowledge and experience  together with your disregard for and therefore, I assume, your misunderstanding of the function that showing plays in ensuring that we breed from appropriate dogs.  Was the stud dog shown?  Has the owner of the stud dog offered you any guidance?

hi jeangenie, instead of buying for another one or two to add to our gang, we decided to breed Maya, she is such a placid and beautiful dog, she would no doubt make a good mum. As she will only have maximum 3, which is ideal as we dont have to go through difficult decision to sell. We will most likely going to keep two and the third to a family member. If she was going to surprise us with more than 3 pups, then yes, we will need to sell' surplus' pups. I bred a litter of rotty about 15 years ago, and that's my only experience in breeding dogs.  Like i said, i wont be breeding any time sooner.

Hi Stooge, the stud dog was in the show ring. Yes, she been very helpful and I could not thank her enough.  On top of that, one of the breeders who i got the other dog from , she been very helpful too. I have only bred a litter of rotty 15 years back.  This would be my first frenchy litter. I am just anxious about the c section and would like a vet who knows her to operate on her if necessary   , not the one from out of hours vet service. Thats the sole reason I came on here to ask for recommendation, some one to recommend a knowledgeable vet with our of hours service, so I can get her register there asap.  This way who ever going to operate on her would at the very least know something about her.  TBC, may be this wont make any difference at all whether the vet knows her in advance, but it is for my peace of mind.

Just a small point I noticed--you wouldn't need heat lamps in your shed if your dogs lived in the house. Most pet dogs do.

So your dogs live out in sheds, I don't think there are many people that keep your breed as kennel dogs. As far as I can see you have no good reason the breed this litter, although in the space of an hour or so you've decided to keep another one yourself, then you expect everyone to simply give you the advice you require.

Words almost fail me! Everything donaldtiong has written goes against every principle that dog lovers believe in and to think that the Mum & puppies will be out in a shed in January beggars belief. I hope that I never get close to this uncaring breeder in real life. Sadly he is not alone in his views but he has certainly been shot down on here. For once, I support all these criticisms.

'It's just a litter' - that sent chills down my spine!!

I've had a look through the OPs other posts, it doesn't look good :-(

This bitch is only 2 1/2 and had a litter by c section a year ago. The OP allegedly didn't own her then but did mate her on her next season when she (thankfully) missed. They then wanted to give her their own prescription antibiotics as the vets were "awfully expensive". She is now in whelp again. She lives outside and belongs to someone with a demanding job who doesn't have time for researching or advancing lines - it can't get much worse.

if money is the issue and your vet is closed over the Christmas break, why don't you just ask them for a referral?

I stand by my original post that you are looking for a cheap cop out to have your poor bitch sectioned early during office hours for your own convienience. You say you are not breeding her for money/showing or to help improve the gene pool then why if you say she is a much loved pet breed her at all? you run the risk of loosing her, especially if you do not have all the contingency plans in order and with the knowledge that a C section on Xmas day costing the best part of £1000 or more is a distinct possibility.
She has already shown to be  a high risk of having another section, you tried to breed her less than a year after her last litter, she was bred too young by a previous owner then sold on to you. It would seem that you are expecting her to have her pups outside in Jan.
You wonder why the carefull breeders on CD attack your post, I read your previous posts before answering and as yet nothing you have said will persuade me that you are not breeding for all the wrong reasons and looking to do it the easiest and cheapest way for yourself. Even before mating her you were looking for the cheapest ABX to self medicate her using some of your prescribed medication.
No doubt not having got the desired reponse from CD you will do things your own way. There are those who ask for advice before entering into breeding and those like yourself who expect to fallback onto someone elses hard earned expierience.  No one here would deny you help and the benifit of our many years expierience but niether will we condone poor breeding practices such as yours.
Aileen

Excellent post...
I am afraid that I was so cross with the Original Poster wanting to breed that I could not reply.

I can't see how the KC could enforce the two C sections rule unless DNA testing for all is introduced.

No you can never stop cheating. You could register litters giving the wrong parents for instance, just lie outright. People will always cheat and there is very little that can be done about it, but at least HAVING the rule is better than not having it -there will also always be those that follow all rules -hopefully the majority! http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3526

Yet another back yard breeder -and in this case LITERALLY it seems.  I wouldn't whelp any breed outside, and even if I did, I certainly wouldn't do it in DECEMBER.

I think this is a breed that very few breeders would house outside let alone whelp.

instead of buying for another one or two to add to our gang, we decided to breed Maya, she is such a placid and beautiful dog, she would no doubt make a good mum.

I think you'd be better spending your money (CS, antibiotics, stud fee, pre welping consultations) on a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than risk losing Maya as she is a beautiful dog and probably much loved. 

But that's just my opinion, I wouldn't risk my bitch especially knowing she'd need a CS.

Oh & you should know if she made a good mum or not, her previous owner would have told you as she has endured all this before!

Too late she is already five weeks gone so let's hope the OP at the very least takes on board the advice of getting her inside and also the 24 care she will need.

I had my girl scanned last week at 6 weeks as well, puppies are due if all goes to plan around the 27th. As we were doing the scan I was talking to the vet about opening times over Christmas if anything should go wrong, fingers crossed it doesn't. So I now have all the details of their opening times over Christmas, and they are also aware of my girl and the possibility that I my need them something I fee is very important. I am also aware of the emergency vets that cover the practice when closed and I am also aware of the cost involved should I need to use them, again all things that need to be though out before doing any mating.
I do hope that this person has managed to find a good vet and has been able to speak to them before hand.
Good luck to all who have puppies due.

> Novice came on here for specific advice, but none received, only judgemental criticisms. 

Call it judgemental or call it being true to what we believe in......its all a matter of perception.

Novice came on here for specific advice,

Bit late for a novice to be looking for advice two weeks before the littler is due, they should have asked 6 months ago and this sad and totally inexcusable breeding may not have taken place but then again advice is not often taken if it goes against someone's selfish wishes.

I also own your breed only a male. But my other breed before i mate her have planned approx DD the date ready to leave. If its too close to bad times of the year I won't breed. If I had a girl in whelp id know exactly where to go if a section was needed and would pre warn the vet of my intentions to breed if one is needed. My local vets are useful for vaccinations but for anything else I'd prefer a more knowledgeable vet. The reasons for criticism in this page is you should already know the answer to your question. Or in hindsight be asking . I am considering breeding does anyone know a good vet in guildford just incase. I wouldn't opt for elect in any breed, and the bulldog pups, similar to toy breeds, I see as special care needing that bit of extra help so a premature birth is a definite no no. They are definitely not outside dogs and I'm making my boy a coat for when the snow comes.

I have just read all these posts and am so terribly sad to think of this poor little  bitch, out in the shed ????, with very little or no chance of giving birth as nature intended and what for ??????? What has she done to deserve this ?

Hi donaldtig. Just to say i am new to this forum too and found that every question people ask they get critised for  which is off putting and i tend to look on google for information which is helpful informative and most of all non critical.I bred a litter last year and although scarey it is most beautiful experience knowing you have healthy puppies and that you have given them the best possible start in life you can give them.  I really hope your bitch will whelp successfully and you are doing all the right things with the best interest of your bitch and pups welfare. You are getting things in place before they arise to give your pups and mom the best possible chance. Irrespective if they are prone to c sections or not you are still thinking of your animals welfare which ever way possible.

There is a difference listening and taking on board good advice and searching on google for what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear.

What is it with people not being able take on board that they maybe doing something wrong ?

To Katrina
I have refrained from posting on this thread until now but your post has prompted me to reply. First let me refute your statement that "every question people ask they get criticised for". The people on this forum care passionately about dogs. They care about the responsible breeding of all dogs and the welfare of any and all offspring. They know all the heartache and the joy of bringing healthy well bred puppies into this world and take responsibility for all their puppies for life. They know that it takes commitment to produce the best that they can.

Now you have a poster who has not given any of the above mentioned points any consideration at all. They have dogs that they do not show, they do not understand anything about lines or ancestry,no comprehension of health issues and only now are thinking of obtaining whelping equipment. They keep the dogs outside in a shed and proclaim that their dogs are much loved family pets.

Now if you think there is nothing wrong in how this poster has gone about things then instead of you being critical of the replies,try to understand what the members of this forum stand for

I am a dog lover too! I don't condone any animal being kept cooped up in a shed but some people are asking for help from other dog lovers and need help. How is having a go at this person helping her in any way. She needs helping to help her animals not her. I would never have my animals outside whatsoever but this is about helping the animals. At least she is trying to do something to help them now and if support helps this person then it helps the dogs.

Could I ask why you had a litter just out of interest as like the OP there doesn't seem to be the welfare of this bitch at the forefront of the motives from this and other threads. If you just think the shed is the issue here then I don't think you have perhaps grasped the concerns people are making .

I do not think just the shed is the issue so do not put words into my mouth. I do not appreciate it. You don't know me so DO NOT JUDGE ME! Just because i put only one issue on one reply does not mean i am not thinking of the other issues at hand. You mentioned only the shed. so i replied about the shed.

> She needs helping to help her animals not her.

I think Donald may be a he :) but everything posters have said has been directly with helping his animals in mind.

So if you have other concerns then why not help the OP with educating as people only learn my mistakes or taking on board information from more experienced and informed people :-) No need to shout btw I am not deaf :-)

> as people only learn my mistakes

and sadly when it comes to dog breeding these mistakes result in the dogs suffering.

Well if you think she needs information from experienced people why don't you help her then. Never said u was deaf.You just don't listen to other peoples opinions.

Exactly Barbara but some people think it is better not to challenge people in case of upsetting them rather than keep the welfare of a dog as the most important focus. Good job this site remains focusing on the welfare of dogs.

I have been giving advice and I do listen to people's opinions and often agree with them but not when somebody is not giving out good sound advice, I not afraid to challenge that but will never be rude in doing that :-)

I am not afraid to challenge either and i was not rude. You just presumed to judge me without knowing me. This post has changed to you having a dig at me rather than the subject at hand.

I didn't say you were rude I said I am not rude although now you mention it I do find shouting rather rude :-)

The subject and advice was flowing quite freely and was slightly put off track by one of your post saying that the advice and guidance given by people was critical for every question asked on here. So how come it is ok for you to do this and when anybody is trying to question your response is looked at as having a dig at you ?  It works both ways and you have said you have more concerns than just the shed so not quite sure why you can't share those concerns ?

Lucy, I don't know why you are going to the trouble :)

You know what you are getting rather boring now. I don't have to give anyone my opinions least of all you it was to talk to the person who asked the question but by god i bet he/she regrets asking it now with the petty squabbles.

No neither do I but in the hope that the penny might drop :-)

Don't you just hate how new posters come on here, don't hear what they want to hear, get all defensive then attack long established experienced members?  The manners of some people :(

>it is most beautiful experience knowing you have healthy puppies and that you have given them the best possible start in life you can give them. 

Unfortunately from what Donald has posted, his puppies aren't going to be given the best start in life, which is what is angering people who know how he could be doing it so much better and more safely. It's the dogs that matter here, not people's egos or sensitivities.

it is most beautiful experience knowing you have healthy puppies and that you have given them the best possible start in life you can give them.

Indeed it is, but letting pups live in a shed from newborn in December is NOT the best possible start in life.

Then again as any good breeder will sleep next to the whelping box for at least a couple of weeks after birth, I guess the breeder might have a miserable Christmas sleeping out in the shed too. :)

>Indeed it is, but letting pups live in a shed from newborn in December is NOT the best possible start in life.

Especially if the bitch has been unfortunate enough to have had major surgery; the infection risk is sky-high. Not a sign of a caring breeder.

>Indeed it is, but letting pups live in a shed from newborn in December is NOT the best possible start in life.

My friend has this breed. His bitch is a champion and he had an equally successful stud dog lined up as recommended by the breeder of his girl with the intention of breeding a litter last year but didn't go ahead with it because he couldn't secure 8 weeks off work to rear the puppies.  Apparently, this breed is known for not being particularly maternal and need round the clock supervision to ensure the bitch doesn't squash or suffocate pups etc (like most breeds, I guess).  I don't imagine the OP is planning to move into the shed in the dead of winter to ensure the pups safety.

I still consider myself new to this forum.  I am not a breeder.  I came on here just under a year ago to ask some questions from knowledgeable, experienced people about breeding in the future.  All I got was advise, answers to my questions and support.  The answers I got were not what I wanted to hear - don't breed yet I have more to learn.  But they were right, because the responsible breeders that use this forum speak from years of experience and hindsight in all things dog.  The advise given on this thread is similar and given from the same perspective for the same reason - the love of dogs and a knowledge gained from years of experience and active participation in the dog world.  I would imagine the posters on this forum have combined knowledge from centuries worth of experience.  If it is dismissed by novices as overly harsh or not what they want to hear then more fool them and I feel for their dogs.

Many years ago we had our first litter 9 puppies born between 2.00 am and 5.00am Christmas Day.It was the most magical day of my life, we had mentors at the end of the phone in case and vet's emergncy telephone numbers ready (the vets were aware of the date due) . My partner and I had researched as much as possibl, had dozens of books and all the equipment that may be needed in an emergency. The whelping box was lovingly made by my husband weeks prior to the birth and the bitch was happy to nest in there. We had a nice large bedroom with 2 radiators , a heat lamp and heat pads as it was freezing outside. The lights were down low, we had a bed in the room as we were sleeping with her already and intended to stay with her and her pups for a week or so. At 2.00am with Christmas Carols on the TV she gave birth to the first puppy, 8 more followed in quick succesion, we just sat and watched in awe and gently told her what a clever girl she was. . . . . I will never forget that night, it was like watching a miracle. The Mum was a fantastic mother she did everything herself with no need for us to get involved. All 9 puppies are now healthy old adults :-) The wonderful thing was watching her when she had finished delivering all the puppies and how happy and contented she was with her babies. We  did everything in our power to make sure she was warm and fed and loved and comforted all through, since then we have had many litters of 9 puppies and history just repeats itself. The wonder of birth is so beautful. All this is missing with a bitch kept outside in a shed and cut open to remove her babies. . . . . . . .where's the love ????

I don't care how many babies/litters you deliver, each time it is a miracle that I never tire of seeing. To see a proud mum with her new pups is a magical moment :)

Playing devils advocate here: the OP didnt create the problem of elective C-sections, just accepts it as inevitable.

So many breeders dont expect the lovely natural scenario given by Belgianique because they seldom see it.

Its so sad that in some breeds, bitches will almost certainly go through a general anesthetic, post op drugs and very often will end up with little or no maternal instincts. In some very heavy bodied breeds the poor little mother often doesnt get to be with her pups, they are brought to her to feed then removed....It makes me so sad for them. What have we done to get to this place?
The miracle has become a travesty.

I'm sorry but I have little to add to this thread as I am with Merlot on this.
I find the thought of anyone mating a bitch with the expectation of a C section absolutely horrifying. It is traumatic enough for the bitch when it has to be done for emergency reasons. But to go ahead with breeding when you know it will probably be necessary is disgraceful. I realise that you are not alone in this, but it does not make it any more excusable. Poor bitch

don't blame the breeders blame the kennel club for allowing the breed standards to be the way they are, some bitches couldn't possibly pass a litter due to head and/or front end size, all due to the breed standards as said before

> What have we done to get to this place?
> The miracle has become a travesty.

We started accepting poor reproductive and maternal ability.

This is creeping into lack of libido and mating behaviour becoming common in countries where AI is used routinely, and I am glad that our KC is wary of it's wholesale use and puts a value on natural performance.

Just because things can be done doesn't mean they should or that it is not a slippery slope.

For example Progesterone testing being routinely carried out rather than allowing the more (inconvenient to us), more natural scenario of dog and bitch being introduced to each other over several days until the optimum time arrives.  This can result in a dog assuming that any bitch in season is ready for mating, as he never learns the process of testing and patiently waiting for receptivity.  Poor bitches being expected to mate a dog they hardly have had a chance to sniff at?

All these breeds who now routinely have C sections used to reproduce naturally, or they died trying (of course not for a minute would I suggest you let a bitch die)  but ti meant that her offspring did not get used for breeding only the offspring of self whelping bitches survived and bred on.

Hayley, the Kennel Club do not write the standards the breed clubs do and to that extend it is the breeders that has got such breeds into this predicament.  The Kennel club has, infact, obliged the breed clubs to remove references that encourage the sort of exagerations that lead to problems and has also begun several initiatives under its fit for function scheme to address this such as the reporting and limitation of sections.