In some countries you can't even register puppies unless the parents have minimum grades/placings at shows. 

In other countries they don't get a full registration until they are confirmed at a show and then can be bred from and have registrable progeny.

These are mainly younger Kennel clubs who never got complacent/reliant on the increasing amount of money taken in registration fees when Pedigree dogs started to be bred on a more commercial for a pet market (as opposed to primarily for work or for the 'fancy') basis in some circles.

It is interesting but has not received much publicity/exposure that the Kennel club now has this rule mentioned in the health groups report.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/10884/doghealthgroupannualreport2010.pdf

* New Kennel Club Regulation B22.d.
In the event that a breeder is required by law to obtain a breeding licence,
that breeder may be required to produce his/her licence to the Kennel Club.
If such licence is not produced and/or no reasonable explanation is given, any
applications to register litters may be refused.

I don't know any club that does not welcome pet owners.
I joined the Golden Retriever Club in 1989 and am still a member. I have never bred a litter of Goldens and only showed sporadically over the years. Not a problem. When I joined the BSD clubs, I was a pure pet owner.

The majority of members of our breed club are pet owners, without them the club would not be able to exist, or subs would have to treble.

Being a member of  my breed club - not a breed club that just any owner of that breed can become a member of, btw - ie. proposed and seconded by two reputable show breeders ...

I've never heard of any breed club in the UK where you don't need proposer and seconder. Usually you just get the breeder of your dog and a mate of theirs to do it if you're not already involved in the breed -it's not hard.

Maybe if mine were a less competitive breed I may have felt differently,but showing my breed is not for the faint hearted imo

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this??

Do you mean that other breeds aren't as competitive in shows?     I can assure you this isn't the case, unless the breed is so rare that only one or two enter the classes, all breeds are extremely competitive.  In our own breed we may not have the huge numbers in the ring that some breeds have, but it can still be extremely difficult to get placed and the quality of competition is very high, but I would never have considered breeding without having competed and had my girls assessed against serious competition.   In a breed so beloved of puppy farmers and BYB's it's what sets the well-bred, health tested apart from money spinners surely?

Maybe if mine were a less competitive breed I may have felt differently,but showing my breed is not for the faint hearted imo

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this??

I read it as "My dogs aren't good enough to win"......which then beggars the question if they are good enough to breed from. Newcomers can do well if they have a dog good enough and are able to handle well enough -look at Lucy with her Henry as a perfect example of how somebody in the same breed managed to do well with their first dog when the dog was good.

Besides, what's wrong with starting small at open shows? I often watch the Cavalier classes at open shows, partly because I have an interest in the breed having had them as pets for many years, partly because they are often in the ring before Papillons. At open shows you can get small classes where everyone stands a good chance of a placing, I've seen many where there were no more than 10-15 dogs in the breed altogether. At least that way there would be critiques written if the dogs were placed.

>Also, a "excellent show pedigree" means next to nothing.

Agreed - a dog can inherit all the faults of two good parents, yet that won't be evident on the pedigree!

My least good show bitch has the best looking pedigree.

> At open shows you can get small classes where everyone stands a good chance of a placing, I've seen many where there were no more than 10-15 dogs in the breed altogether. At least that way there would be critiques written if the dogs were placed.

Open show entries in this breed are dropping rapidly, I only have 21 next week!
Championship shows are very variable with Midland counties 230 ish so the puppy classes can be well filled 15-20....

I dont get the bit about the 'not for the faint hearted' though - unless in connection with breeding of course...then it is a good description.

Besides, what's wrong with starting small at open shows?

Great place to start and not much outlay.   I've met many a champion in the ring at open shows as well as experienced breeders/judges and found them very helpful and encouraging to a nervous newby and a good way to find out the quality of your own dogs :-D

Just as an aside you do not need any recomendations to become a member of many of the Border Collies clubs.

But you do to join my breed club, satincollie :-) as I have clearly stated.

I am not going to respond after this post, since I will only be repeating myself and that would be boring for me and everyone else reading. But just to confirm, I do not CURRENTLY show, but I am NOT a BACK YARD BREEDER. There are very poor breeders who don't show and that DO show (sorry, I am repeating myself after all!) . I am a good breeder, with my breeds best interests at heart. If show people allowed themselves to occasionally think outside the box it would be a good thing. Not EVERYONE who opts not to show is bad breeder, many are, I agree. (Just as not all show people are good breeders). Keep an open mind people.... you never know, it just might encourage folk to give showing a try, when otherwise they might not feel confident enough ;-)
Sorry, almost forgot, where I stated my breed was too competitive and showing therefore was not for the faint hearted, I clearly meant that there are always huge enteries as it is a very popular breed and therefore if you are prone to nerves, it is perhaps not the best breed to start showing. Sadly, I have never got past ringcraft. Breeding dogs is not for the faint hearted I agree, but I cope ok with this as I have a medical/nursing background. Nothing further to say, but thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read my comments :-).

I wasn't getting into this debate was just pointing out to Marianne that there are breed clubs in the UK that dont require sponsers contrary to what she believed. that is way i said as an aside.

I have read all your comments and continue to have an open mind :) but have not read anything to indicate how you know your dogs are suitable for breeding.
I don't enjoy showing much either, both myself and my dogs would always prefer a day just out walking the fells, but I don't know of any other suitable way of finding out what I need to know.

Sorry, almost forgot, where I stated my breed was too competitive and showing therefore was not for the faint hearted, I clearly meant that there are always huge enteries as it is a very popular breed and therefore if you are prone to nerves, it is perhaps not the best breed to start showing.

And like both tooolz and I pointed out, at open shows you do NOT get big entries. So why not show there? There's no exhibitor who wasn't nervous at first -and most (if not all) still are years down the line.

Thanks Gill -I never knew that but of course I've only got experience of the breed clubs I've joined myself, and all of them have required proposer and seconder -as have all cats clubs I've been a member of.

Just tagging to the end with few thoughts :)

In UK, in breeds with loads of entries...
If your dog is not of quality of being placed high enough, what will you learn about your dog as you will never get critiques?
I'm sure most agree, a dog that is not a top winner might be a good breeding dog if the owner knows what they are doing and has a mentor?
At £25 per entry, if I had a dog that does not do well, I would not keep showing it, what would be the point?

They might attend shows without their dog to see and learn but this will not be obvious to others?
I actually find I learn more if I do not have my own dog with me as I can concentrate 100% to the judging :)

Over the years I have met many people who have been showing for years but still seem to have very little knowledge of the anatomy, breed standard etc...
Many people who have shown actively for few years and seen what is fashionable in the ring at that moment, which is not always the true type etc the breed has. People who actively show but have very little knowledge of the health of lines or choose to ignore some health issues.

There are open shows of course... I don't think I have never had an open show critique that I have actually felt was representative and taught me something.
All have been very general - nice head, good movement etc. Maybe I have just been unlucky?

I'm not saying people should be breeding willy nilly but just because somebody does not show their dogs, I personally do not think it makes them a bad breeder.
Many kennels who show, do not show all their dogs and will breed from un-shown bitches as well.

I'm hoping to breed from a young girl I have here, she has been shown once this year, does that make me a bad breeder?
I would not like to think other breeders see me like this but maybe they do if they do not know my face :(?

I would definitely like people to be open minded and not judge a person if they do not know for sure what lengths that person does go behind the "curtains" :). There are many breeders in my breed (here and abroad) who do not show very actively at all but are doing much good for the breed and have given a lot to the breed AND many successful breeders who now breed&show the stock from those very people :)!

You attend shows however?
You regularly see the cream of the generation in the flesh?
Allow other breeders, exhibitors who you respect, to pass comment on your dogs?
Have watched many judges, whos opinions you value, in action and follow their decisions?

I have great chunks of time out of the showring from time to time but I always keep up to date with whats going on.

As to the matter of breeding from bitches ( in particular) who wouldnt win for type and conformational reasons - not a cosmetic fault) I would never do that any more. It takes you one step forward and possibly two steps back in the next generation. NOR will I use a fabulous dog with an awful mother..recipe for a big disappointment.

If your dog is not of quality of being placed high enough, what will you learn about your dog as you will never get critiques?
I'm sure most agree, a dog that is not a top winner might be a good breeding dog if the owner knows what they are doing and has a mentor?

We're not talking top winners, though, are we? In a breed with large entries, if your dog never managed to even get a VHC, does that perhaps not say that it isn't actually good enough? You don't have to count only tickets as good results! I have one bitch who has a colour fault. According to the breed standard it isn't a major fault, but it certainly is eye catching and off putting. Even she has managed placings (low placings, highest was a fourth) at championship shows -because the rest of he is good. And that's in a breed with high entries -the 4th was in a class of 14 for instance. You don't just show once and give up, not all judges prioritise the same thing. You show at least a few times and if nobody even shortlists the dog then I think you have to ask yourself if that really is the quality to continue breeding from. (Again don't forget the breed in question is one where there are no working abilities.)

There are open shows of course... I don't think I have never had an open show critique that I have actually felt was representative and taught me something.
All have been very general - nice head, good movement etc. Maybe I have just been unlucky?

I'd say bad luck, yes. There are plenty of good judges doing open shows -and the odd bad one of course. I know I've told the story many a time here before, but when I first started in my main breed and just read the breed standard, I had no idea the bitch I was showing had eyes that really ought to be a bit darker in colour. It was a show critique -from an open show- that told me this, and after reading it, I made a point of looking at  other dogs and noticing different eyes and learnt what the correct shade was. And when I later picked a stud dog, I went for one with really dark eyes. Just one simple example of how showing can teach you something.

Or going even further back -I was 12 and was going to show my guinea pig for the first time, I read the breed standard day in and day out and was convinced she fitted it 100 %. It wasn't until I attended the show and saw others that I realised all the faults.

Many kennels who show, do not show all their dogs and will breed from un-shown bitches as well.

But they DO show and therefore have that extra knowledge. Somebody who never shows AT ALL will never gain that.

You don't have to count only tickets as good results!

I think this is really relevant.   When looking at show success, it's important to look at the overall picture.   Some might say success is getting a 1st place in a show or even a CC/BOB.   But being placed consistently is just as important, better to be placed in most of the classes you enter than just win one CC and then not be placed in any more.  It's the opinion of more than one person that counts, if all the judges are in agreement then you start to build up a picture of how your dog compares with others, her strengths and weaknesses.  

This could just as easily take place at open shows, as regular placings at open shows would then mean that it would be worth considering Ch shows.

I read our Breed Standard and studied photos/critiques of noted dogs in the breed until I could recite it all by heart, but it was only when attending shows that I began to understand how it related to the dogs.

> I've never heard of any breed club in the UK where you don't need proposer and seconder

Over the years (more than I care to remember!) we have been members of breed clubs for 3 different breeds. Two of those breeds didn't ask for proposers and seconders. The third breed does.

We usually include a form for joining the relevant club in our puppy packs as I think the more info the new owners have, the better. Many of the new owners will be pet people and I think being club members, reading club magazines etc will encourage them to take an interest in the breed beyond their own dog.

To be honest, I prefer open membership as I think encouragement can go a long way, and making things hard can be off-putting to newcomers.

> (Again don't forget the breed in question is one where there are no working abilities.)

I thought the cavalier was originally bred as a companion dog. Although not strictly work. It was not bred just for how it looked but for the temperament, and ability to be a good pet.  People breed collies that don't show but herd sheep, GSDs that don't show but do work as police/guard dogs. I actually can't see what is wrong with breeding nice healthy sound temperament pet dogs. There is more to a dog than just looks. even for a small non working breed. After all most people choose a cavalier because it will be a good pet don't they?

I thought the cavalier was originally bred as a companion dog. Although not strictly work. It was not bred just for how it looked but for the temperament, and ability to be a good pet.  People breed collies that don't show but herd sheep, GSDs that don't show but do work as police/guard dogs. I actually can't see what is wrong with breeding nice healthy sound temperament pet dogs.

You could easily argue the Cavalier was bred only for money (i.e. the £25 offered at Crufts which then was a huge sum-and that WAS based on pure looks and nothing else), or if you consider it to be the original King Charles/Royal Toy Spaniel you could consider it to originally have been bred to attract fleas off people. :) It was not originally bred to be a pet, in the sense we would refer to a pet today, as only the gentry and well off people were able to own the dogs.

Of course you could breed healthy sound temperament pet dogs, but very soon they would no longer be a BREED -they'd be a generic pet dog. You only need to look at all the pet bred dogs around you to see how they differ from what they should look like. Cavaliers with long faces, tall legs, weighing twice as much as they should, chocolate Labradors with yellow eyes, hugely oversized Chihuahuas and Yorkshire Terriers etc etc etc not to mention the Staffies. Doesn't a pet buyer deserve to get a dog that looks like the breed they have deliberately chosen? When I lived in a built up area and walked my dogs in a big park where dozens of other people walked theirs, I had 4 Cavaliers. I was stopped so many times by people with Cavaliers that were pet bred and looked NOTHING like mine. Several of them said they wished theirs looked like mine as that was what they had expected. All mine were pure pets, but bought from show breeders -hence they looked like their breed.

I do attend shows, here and abroad and have met all dogs 3 generations back in my girls pedigree (+ relations), even further on mothers side.
Been following the bitch line for years, waiting for a "perfect" combination to come up...
I have had the breed for nearly 20 years and learned showing a dog that was far from perfect :) pretty awful to be honest...
But unless people talk to me they will not know any of this and probably only see a breeder that does not show her dogs much so must not be doing any good :(...
Hence me saying people should not be too quick to jump to conclusions...

The girl I'm hoping to breed is the best girl I have had I just have not got around showing her for various reasons and I would not hope that to stand against me as a breeder but after reading these postings, I'm thinking it obviously might in many people's eyes :(...

I'm a great believer in strong bitch line (and always look at strong bitches in the pedigrees of dogs I'm interested in) but some people seem to have the skill to utilize and get superb dogs out of a well bred girl that has not done much themselves and I would not judge somebody who did so.

Neither would I judge somebody who does not show if they had interest in the breed, health of it and a good mentor who knows what they are talking about.
I have seen good litters coming from such breeders with support of a good mentor (often breeder of the bitch) and those dogs have gone in to other people's breeding plans later on so have contributed to the breed.

> After all most people choose a cavalier because it will be a good pet don't they?

They could choose any number of breeds for that. It is the appearance that attracts people to a particular breed, at least in part.

I have twice used beautiful dogs with champion fathers and rather poor quality mothers...I regretted it....both times.

> I think this is really relevant.   When looking at show success, it's important to look at the overall picture.   Some might say success is getting a 1st place in a show or even a CC/BOB.   But being placed consistently is just as important, better to be placed in most of the classes you enter than just win one CC and then not be placed in any more.  It's the opinion of more than one person that counts, if all the judges are in agreement then you start to build up a picture of how your dog compares with others, her strengths and weaknesses.

This is what I'm wondering about, if you have a breed with huge entries and don't get to top 5 you will not learn anything about your dog?
You will not know if the judges opinion is that the dog is good, just not good enough for placings that day or if they think he/she is totally rubbish and ugly!

I agree, breed standard needs to be shown to you by living examples and studying them and being shown/pointed out by experienced people :) most dogs without obvious faults could fit the standard if you do not know what you are looking at :)

This is what I'm wondering about, if you have a breed with huge entries and don't get to top 5 you will not learn anything about your dog?

Open shows.

True marianne :)

I just have been unlucky with critiques it seems and have not really got the point from the ones I have been to :)...
I just don't get the open shows I'm afraid as the few times I have been the judging has often left me wondering (and that is not because my dogs have not been placed ;) ) and in my breed often just the first or sometimes second get a critique? Is this the same with more numerous breeds?

The open show critiques depends a bit on the dog paper -OD will accept 1st, 2nd, 3rd but DW will not. Some judges always write first three up, others don't, so yes it can be a bit of hit and miss.

I DO attend shows ....... already stated this, I also have breed mentors ... again already stated by myself earlier on in the thread... but as always some people read only what they want to read.
I saw poorer quality dogs/bitches than any of my bitches (two have been assessed independantly as show quality, one I bred myself, the other I bought in) at Crufts this year... seriously, they were ugly and you have to wonder how some of these dogs qualify !!!!!  I know a nice cavalier when I come across one.
Re breed club membership ....... I was proposed and seconded a few months before I was due to mate my foundation girl up to a ch sire .... very different for two reputable longstanding club members to allow my membership - knowing my intentions ;-) than if I were just someone who had bought a pet pup off either of them, I am sure you will all agree.
I shan't even read this thread again so no need to reply to me, I really cannot be bothered with such blatantly closed minds, life is too short.
Good to see though since my last visit, that there is at last someone who frequents this forum that actually thinks outside the box and dares to say so - lol ! Nobody on this planet ever learned anything from maintaining a closed mind.

Often at open shows you can chat to the judge after judging and even if you haven't been placed they may be willing to point out why in their opinion your dog didn't do so well that day.   Sometimes you can do this at CH shows - especially if they see you regularly at the shows, many judges are showing one week and judging another week ;)   

The point is that by your dog being judged by a number of people you will get more of an idea of you dog's quality or lack of it than if you only see one or two people.   These one or two may be accurate in their assessment or not, but you'll never know if they are the only ones who ever see your dog/s.  Of course some people prefer this as they won't take the chance that their dog/s may not measure up ;)

> The point is that by your dog being judged by a number of people you will get more of an idea of you dog's quality or lack of it than if you only see one or two people.   These one or two may be accurate in their assessment or not, but you'll never know if they are the only ones who ever see your dog/s.  Of course some people prefer this as they won't take the chance that their dog/s may not measure up

The thing is that even the people that DO show will often only do so under judges that "like" their type and are more likely to be placed. Judging is so subjective and no two judges seem to judge to the same standards. Surely they should all be judging to the same breed standard and should find the same good and bad points? The number of Goldies short in leg and long in body is completely alien to my interpretation of the breed standard, yet many of these dogs are "Champions". And many are so heavy, I fail to see how they are "fit for function".

I have recently bred my first litter (having not shown the Mother - I prefer agility), and am going to give showing a go with the pup I kept (on a small scale), but find I'm already looking at who is judging. Mo is quite dark and a number of judges definitely show a preference for pale dogs, so do I show under them or not? And entries in Goldie classes are usually huge. We'll see.....

> This is what I'm wondering about, if you have a breed with huge entries and don't get to top 5 you will not learn anything about your dog?
> You will not know if the judges opinion is that the dog is good, just not good enough for placings that day or if they think he/she is totally rubbish and ugly!
>
>

but by attending and seeing the quality of dogs that are placed will teach you what to look for, and should show you where your own stock needs improving, and whether you will try upgrading by trying to breed better than the mother, or decide you have too much that needs improving and decide to buy in a better foundation bitch.

This is what you appear to be doing.

The thing is that even the people that DO show will often only do so under judges that "like" their type and are more likely to be placed. Judging is so subjective and no two judges seem to judge to the same standards. Surely they should all be judging to the same breed standard and should find the same good and bad points?

It is only by showing regularly that you are able to start keeping tracks of what judges like your dogs' type or not. :) I am getting a decent list of BSD judges' likes and dislikes now after ten years plus of showing them, but in the Papillons it's still hit and miss. As for the breed standards, it's all down to interpretation as there is no such thing as definite measurements when it comes to anything but height (and the length of a Cavalier's face! Might be more like that, but it's not the norm), and what one person considers to be , for argument's sake, pink could be a totally different shade to what another person sees pink as being. This is after all why we need 3 tickets to make up a Champion -more than just one opinion. Length of leg isn't mentioned in the Golden breed standard.......

> Length of leg isn't mentioned in the Golden breed standard.......

No, but under body it says "Balanced, short-coupled, deep through heart" and under height it says "Height at withers: dogs: 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); bitches: 51-56 cms (20-22 ins)". To my mind that would rule out a long-bodied, short-legged dog?

To my mind that would rule out a long-bodied, short-legged dog?

Interpretation again. :) What's a long body and what's a short leg? What's merely a medium body as opposed to a short coupled one? You'll never get everyone to agree on such interpretations.

The Puppy group winner at S.Wales was anything but long and short legged :-)

The girl I'm hoping to breed has been shown only once this year but she did do well under a judge I respect.
I'm hoping to show her little more to get her face seen before the pups as I of course wish the puppies to go active families and possibly been shown in the future and know this is more likely to happen if she is seen.
She also does water rescue and completed A&B levels this summer.
Just wanting to make clear I have not said what I have said because I do not show or work my girls myself!

I just don't think people who do not actively show/work should automatically be "down graded" for it.
and people who do, should not automatically earn approval just because they do...
Open mind an all, judge each case for their credit or lack of it... in both cases :)

"Deep through the heart"  to me might mean that the ribs would come quite far down making the legs appear to be shorter than they actually are ?

In addition a dog that is put together nicely often gives the impression of being smaller than one that isn't - until you get them side by side ;)

> The thing is that even the people that DO show will often only do so under judges that "like" their type and are more likely to be placed. Judging is so subjective and no two judges seem to judge to the same standards

A very Valid point. I also show very little these days but do still breed. The reason I don't show is that I don't like the dogs that are winning.

to me it seems that the judges are putting up dogs which don't match the standard with incorrect front assemblies and with heads with in correct planes. I feel the judges are looking for movement that is also wrong. I often find that my dogs do better under alrounders as I think they interpret the standard as it is written not by looking at the fashion.

I am still breeding but I am breeding dogs they way I think they should look. When I mated my bitch I studied several dogs and there were 2 I felt were a good match. one a breed champ and one unshown. In the end I went for the unshown one as I felt his movement and front construction were more correct.

I feel my interpretation of the standard is as valid as any other persons.

To be honest to breed with any real idea of making a contribution to the breed you need to be involved in some way, be it showing, working in some sphere etc as you need to see what is available in the gene pool.

Once you have established an understanding of the breed standard it does not mean you have to go with current fashion,or a particular judges/breeders interpretation of type, but you do need to recognise good type within it's acceptable limits even if you may have different preferences.

Unless you mix within breed circles you will not know what there is to chose from when making breeding decisions based on where you want to take your breeding liens.

There may be a fashion for dark/light dogs, particular colours where there is a  variety of colours in the standard.  Breeds go through stages where big dogs find favour (usually when loosing size overall) and vice versa.

No true breeder can work in isolation and the various canine disciplines are the shop window for what breeders produce and what breeding stock is available.

There are undoubtedly super examples of many breeds unshown, but no-one will know about them unless they are sen, as they are rarely used except maybe by the breeder who has kept tabs on them.

"I thought the cavalier was originally bred as a companion dog. Although not strictly work. It was not bred just for how it looked but for the temperament, and ability to be a good pet. "

So-called  toy dogs  seem to me so often underestimated - to be a pet to an older person, and to manage them so that you (the pet) get fed and cared for even when your human may be forgetful;  to give them a reason to prepare food you can both share;  to love them however "odd" they may become; to give them a reason for keeping going when age and illness are wearing them down, and no-one human visits anymore, seem to me to be a consummate canine skill, and one which deserves recognition.  It can be very hard work.

> To be honest to breed with any real idea of making a contribution to the breed you need to be involved in some way, be it showing, working in some sphere etc as you need to see what is available in the gene pool.

But you can see what is available WITHOUT showing yourself. I visited a number of dogs in their own homes (and they weren't local to me), visited shows before I chose the dog I did, the stud dogs owners also saw my bitch and I spent many an hour studying pedigrees. Already, at just over 4 months, I can see that Mo is looking to become a "better" example than her Mother and hopefully if I breed from her in the future I will improve on her also. I've been involved in the breed for well over 25 years and this was my first litter of this breed. Because I don't show (although may have a go with Mo) does that make me a backyard breeder?

>Because I don't show (although may have a go with Mo)

She'll certainly need to be assessed by several unbiased, independent people, and at several intervals as she matures, before you make a decision to breed from her. I had a very nice pup who did well as a puppy but then tailed off as an adult and didn't fulfil her early promise, so she was never bred from. Lovely pet, though!

> But you can see what is available WITHOUT showing yourself.

Yes but surely if you have gone to that much trouble you may as well get opinions on your won stock by comparison?

Even if you can't go in the ring yourself if you are 'in a breed' and attending events there is always a keen Young handler or other kind person, that will happily handle for the nervous or less able (physically or ability) handler.

> To be honest to breed with any real idea of making a contribution to the breed you need to be involved in some way, be it showing, working in some sphere etc as you need to see what is available in the gene pool.

well I do agility and obedience at a fairly high level. I do go and watch breed shows especially our club shows when they don't clash with my agility and obedience shows. This is how I know I don't like what is winning. I really fail to see how some of the top winners could do the job they were originally bred for which is a real shame.

I also feel that the breed is depending too much on just a few males with the majority of pedigrees containing these dogs some times the same dog in several generations people can easily breed them selves into a corner and have no where to go if they are not careful.

I don't want to work in isolation but at the same time I don't want to follow the crowds when I don't like the direction it is going in.

I do get fed up when dogs are awarded top awards when they have such obvious faults according to the standard but because so many of them are the same it is becoming the norm.

> I do get fed up when dogs are awarded top awards when they have such obvious faults according to the standard but because so many of them are the same it is becoming the norm.

but by being there you can make those judgements and plan your breeding accordingly to move away from the exaggerations you (and I am sure others) perceive.

Also I am not implying that conformation showing is the only venue for assessing dogs, I include in this the appropriate working areas etc.  I use conformation shows as my main point of assessment as many breeds have no current working purpose linked to their conformation and type.  many are purely companion breeds, which would be called 'fancy' breeds in other livestock, in other words bred only as companions and for their unique physical characteristics.

When I was in Rabbits the breeds were divided into Fur (which includes the Rex coats) and Fancy breeds.  the first were judged primarily on their utilitarian traits of coat and meat properties, and the latter on colour/pattern , eg Dutch, Tans, English etc, and shape etc, eg Dwarfs, Lops, Belgian hare.

Unless you mix within breed circles you will not know what there is to chose from when making breeding decisions based on where you want to take your breeding liens.

Precisely, if you wish to look seriously into breeding and rearing healthy dogs which look like the breed which interests you, how else do you find suitable dogs? Where can you find a vast amount of others in your own breed to look at and compare and decide between?

Most of us otherwise would only bump into the dogs we meet on dog walks, (which is how many BYB's come about breeding :-() Are these ever the best dogs? Of course not, you can only really find that special match by coming together somewhere where there are large numbers of your own breed to view and shows (of all types) are the ultimate and best place to do that.

The problem today is that a majority percentage of people who breed, do not breed to rear healthy dogs who look like the breed, they breed for other reasons entirely they do not look at other dogs in their breed or search for good matches, which is why a large percentage of pedigree dogs are in such a state today, with breeds that often look nothing like the breed and are not always the best health-wise, some vets etc are thriving on clumping all breeders in one boat, because the truth is the breeding world is in a real state, people are breeding dogs who know nothing about it at all, and this is the majority of dog breeders today.

Leaving a handful of people who wish to do things properly and fight and continue to fight to stop this trend of careless and thoughtless breeding.

Although there are a few rogue breeders like this who also show and work their dogs, the majority wish to help with the survival of their breed and are the true guardians of that breed.

So yes, I agree (after my essay) it is very important to have an interest in going to meet others in your breed prior to even thinking of breeding, if you are to breed for the right reasons.

The problem today is that a majority percentage of people who breed, do not breed to rear healthy dogs who look like the breed, they breed for other reasons entirely they do not look at other dogs in their breed or search for good matches, which is why a large percentage of pedigree dogs are in such a state today, with breeds that often look nothing like the breed and are not always the best health-wise, some vets etc are thriving on clumping all breeders in one boat, because the truth is the breeding world is in a real state, people are breeding dogs who know nothing about it at all, and this is the majority of dog breeders today.

I see many adverts on THAT website stating "pedigree full of champions"  and "Fathered by Champion"  "grandparents Champions" etc. yet the dogs involved are pure pets and the pups unregistered - even the breeders of crossbreeds are using it whilst stating no need for tests re 'hybrid vigour' :(     it seems that having show champions in the pedigree is a good money spinner for some and used to lend credibility to their reasons for breeding.  Yet without the knowledge that being amongst show/working people brings, how can they have any idea of what problems are in the breed as a whole and their lines in particular?

Leaving a handful of people who wish to do things properly and fight and continue to fight to stop this trend of careless and thoughtless breeding.

And THESE are the very people targeted by the press and others who want to make a name for themselves out of 'fighting the bad breeders'