But it's also nothing particularly outstanding; my own dogs have had results like that and even my biased eye could tell that they weren't superstars - indeed I didn't consider some good enough to breed from

Despite group wins?!

At open shows, yes. I knew things about them that weren't apparent to the eye ... still had fun showing them though! :-)

Interesting no credit for the photograpy on the website wonder if JH is happy with that.

So looking at some of the comments on that page what does she mean as the 'Nasties' in the breed ? Is this breeders against what she is doing by importing her ?

Also just an oberservation and know nothing about Dalmations but are the spots smaller than the other ones pictured ?

She does seem to have been doing very well :-)

Livers tend to have smaller spots than blacks because of the long-standing preference for blacks, so livers were largely ignored by the establishment. You're more likely to get a well-spotted black than a well-spotted liver, and that's not just because there are more of them!

I Think her spots are smaller and not as round as others but they are all pretty evenly spaced out so thats a bonus :-)
I would imagine there are nasties in most breeds but when Fiona was at the joint Clubs Champ show recently I certainly didn't see anyone being "nastie" to her or her owner.
Paula xxx

Well, I have just found this forum - wish i had'nt!
1. What do you mean photo credit to JH??
Photo credit is clearly given to my freind Liz sampson.
Not that it makes any difference to people who make wild accusations!

And as for genegenie - Jan, Please point out your dog and achievements in Limit class at
champ shows? Limit bitch is one of The most competative classes with the highest quality,
as a championship judge I have no hesitation in stateing this!
Now which one of you wants to put your dog up for me to pull to pieces???
Spotting is unique to every dog, fiona spotting is more 'round' and crisp than
my other none LUA Dalmatians! but not as big as some of the hugely marked blacks
with oversized spots, my point being all are different! You see you are trying to pin point
something that say's, 'look that's different'

Julie
VERY proud owner of Fiona (an outstanding Dalmatian)!
Who by the way has the biggest thing going against her - She's an LUA DALMATIAN
instantly recogniseable, and can never be judged fairly, the best I can achieve is a
'token' placing because she is far to good for most to throw out!!! not that this will not hapen
- or maybe you think judges are not prejadis! yeah, in an ideal world! prejadis is in everything
that you have written here, but you will attribute it to debate!?! It's human nature!

Julie

Welcome.  I wonder if you've misread or misinterpreted the comments?  The thread started with an observation that the silly quotes made by people in your breed that Fiona is a mongrel/crossbreed are unwise, and innaccurate.

Whilst veering off a little to encompass some other breeds, the comments about Fiona are overwhelmingly positive.  No one here has said she should not be shown or is anything other than a Dalmation.  Also everyone has agreed that she should be fairly judged, as one dog amongst many on the day.  However, they've also acknowledged, just as you have, that it might prove difficult due to the publicity.  As one poster said, the judge is 'damned if they do, and damned if they don't'. 

I think you'll find that most people who have commented have no issues whatsoever with Fiona and wish you luck, just as they do our other Dalmation owners :)

Hi and if you are refering to my comments about the spots again an oberservation looking at the pictures and did say I didn't know the breed standard of a Dalmation and so was asking.

I would ask the same question about any dog of the same breed that had a noticable difference. As the repsonder to my question mentioned about the difference in the liver spots is known and also that the spots were evenly spaced I would have thought showed that thsi was a postive comment.

I would try and not be so defensive as she should be shown on her merits and any good judge will do judge her against the breed standard. If you protest publically about it you are more likely to get a view of being antagonistic and so could count against you.

I wish you good luck as I would to any of the dogs that are being judged.

Julie,

Thanks for posting but as the person who started this thread I wonder where you are coming from?
My point was, and is, that it is crazy for this sort of prejudice to be shown against a dog that has been bred to improve the health of a breed as well as fit the standard.
I don't know how much prejudice you have come up against but I imagine there has been a fair bit however my post was to point out that this prejudice is ludicrous! Unfortunately you seem to have borrowed the "tar them all" brush.
Feel free to pull my dogs to pieces, no dog is perfect.

Jeff.

How did she do Julie?

She didn't get placed; but there was one absentee in her class. I'm not sure if that was her or not.

No it wasn't as I saw pictures of her there

i thought the bob dally was liver spotted? it looked like it

No, the BoB was a black-spotted dog, not a liver-spotted bitch!

woops obv didnt have my specs on!

I could have sworn they said on the live stream that it was liver spotted .... did look black to me though !

Well then she wasn't good enough after all then. :)

BOB was infact Liver Spotted :-)
CH Dalmark The Shaded Moon at Nospar JW.
And Yes Fiona was there but she didn't get placed.
Paula xxx
http://www.britishdalmatianclub.org.uk/shows/index.php?action=view_show&show_id=337#Dog+C+C

>BOB was infact Liver Spotted

Really? I didn't realise the lighting was that bad because from the ringside (and I was only about 6 feet away from him) he definitely looked black! I remember thinking that was unusual because Dalmarks are usually clearly liver.

;-) yes he is Liver, His name is Merlot owned by Toni Stocks (I even checked my new review of the year/handbook just in case) LOL
Paula xxx
Just wanted to add, IMO he is a good deep Liver colour not like some of these Orangey ones :-)

well dog my cats- i said i thought bob was liver! did they do it to prove they werent a cross breed? i never saw a liver win before?

>did they do it to prove they werent a cross breed?

What? No! There are plenty of liver Champions down the generations - including that one!

> well dog my cats- i said i thought bob was liver! did they do it to prove they werent a cross breed? i never saw a liver win before?

:-) ha ha no. Just think he likes him ( his wife also gave this dog the CC i think)
The "cross breed" argument isn't about the Liver colour as there are LUA dogs/bitches that are Black spotted. It is because she has (fairly recently) been the product of a project that crossed back to a Pointer to try to eradicate the gene that can cause the stone forming problem that can develop in Dalmatians 
Liver Dalmatians were winning long before Fiona was born and will continue to do so LOL
Paula xxx

i remember a liver being in one of my fav books 101 dalmations!

I found this picture :-)
A Liver Dalmatian from quite a while ago, which was a champion.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/?action=view&current=1901Dalmatian.jpg&currenttag=dalmatian#!oZZ18QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fsmg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv485%2FPietoro%2FDog%2520Breed%2520Historical%2520Pictures%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D1900Dal.jpg%26currenttag%3Ddalmatian
Paula xxx

That's right Tina, Perdita and Prince were both livers in the book, and a different couple from Pongo and Missis. Made me very annoyed when they changed the names of the dogs in the films. Have you read its sequel the Starlight Barking, that's quite fun too!

adore the starlight barking too, i love those old books and still have copies including charlottes web, bambi, come down the mountain (horsey book) watership down (few years later) duncton wood etc

Ooh, don't know come down the mountain or dunction wood. Have you tried Plague Dogs by Richard Adam? More adult theme than WD and a bit upsetting in places but a good read. Anyway sorry for accidental hijack of Dally thread will shut up now!

I see this LUA  bitch has now got her first CC.

I read this too in todays DW - WKC.

Fantastic :-)

Well as the saying goes...if you're good enough! Congratulations to all concerned, a CC is a CC and hard earned.
Jeff.

What is LUA for those of us not into Dalmations?

LUA stands for Low Uric Acid; 10 generations or so ago three dalmatians in the US were crossed with a pointer to bring the normal gene for converting uric acid into urea (that most dogs have but that no dalmatians have) into the offspring. Three or four of the descendents have been accepted by our KC; the first one imported has just won a CC.

Thanks for explaining.

I was thinking from another country not previously accepted before.

JG I am interested, personally I have to take medication because I get Uric Acid crystals in my joints and gout is this similar to the problem in Dallies or is it the exact opposite? What problems does this cause?

Nova, it's exactly the same condition; in dogs it can lead to bladder or kidney stones, or gout. The dietary advice is pretty much identical for dogs or humans!

Sounds like you would do well on a diet of Raw Meat and Bone then Nova....??? :)

And just to add My Congratulations to the CC Winner...its good to know that such a dedicated bunch of Breeders have worked so hard and for so long... to try and eliminate such a distressing condition in The Dalmation...

A well deserved CC.....! :)

>Nova, it's exactly the same condition;

Too late to edit, but just to add that it's strange how all humans and all dals have the same sort of metabolism but (thankfully) only a small proportion have any problems with it.

Poor things I can understand why it would be helpful if it could be bred out but I can't see it happening. I did not know it was a heredity condition until both my sister and I got gout (which was not from high living) and I was told it 'ran' in families. The worse thing is people think it funny but it is the most painful thing I have ever suffered and I feel for a dog that may get gout. Do they treat it with Allopurinal?

Yes, some dals are given allopurinol but with others it can be controlled by diet and general management (plenty of fluids and plenty of opportunity to empty the bladder).

Piglet's a sufferer - he obstructed 5 years ago and needed emergency surgery - but hasn't needed any medication, and (so far) no recurrence.

http://www.thedogplace.org/Genetics/LUA-Dalmatians_Mitchell-11.asp

Here's some quite extensive information about the history of The LUA Dalmation....

Is there a way of breeding and avoiding the problem or is the method of heredity unknown. One assumes it must be worse in the US hence the out-cross, is there a way to tell carriers and if so are the progeny of that out-cross free from the problem.

>Is there a way of breeding and avoiding the problem or is the method of heredity unknown.

All dalmatians worldwide have the mutant gene; there's no way of telling which will be affected at any stage of their lives, but none are clear of it. It's a problem for every single member of the entire breed.

All the progeny of the first crosses were LUA, because they inherited the 'normal' gene from their pointer sire. As they were bred back to purebred dalmatians the LUA individuals became proportionately fewer - a LUA dalmatian has one copy of the 'normal' gene and one copy of the 'mutant' gene, and so can't pass it on to every one of its offspring, however there will be some in each litter. There is a test for the 'normal' gene, hence the importation of the LUAs to try introduce the gene into the UK dal population. But as you can imagine with so few individuals it'll be very many generations more before there is a significant impact on the breed.

That really is an awe inspiring prospect, has there been discussion of repeating the original out-cross it obviously does not affected type. Having a breed of small numeric numbers I always worry when I see a particular stud being used a lot particularly if it is imported just in case it is carrying something, so far in our breed we seem to have avoided any calamity and it is easier to trace a problem back to source and deal with it.

Breeding is such a mine field I do hope that given time you will be able to bring down the incidence of affected animal because although I find Allopurinal works well enough to have a dog on medication for life is not an ideal situation although much better than allowing the crystals to form, never had them in my bladder but in the joints is bad enough.

>has there been discussion of repeating the original out-cross it obviously does not affected type.

Not so far; it took several generations of breeding back to dals before the backcross ones weren't obviously distinguishable.

That may be a problem worth taking for the sake of the breed, I had no idea it was breed wide just shows how insular I am,  my breed first and the group not often looking outside and I really like the Dallies as well. Must pay more attention to other breeds to fully understand others problems.

Thank you for your patients and explaining.

This annoys me, we took our dallie to the east of england show last year and were asked to leave the ring due to a patch over her eye and we are still in complaints process as it says on breed standards patching to head and ears should not be penalised. yet we were asked to leave a show ring because of a patch, i can't see us ever getting a result from the KC but they will allow this dog at crufts?

Who asked you to leave the ring? The only reason a dog can be sent from the ring before being judged is if it is sick, lame or aggressive.