Article in the papers, apologies if the link does not work! :-)
IF these people have been quoted correctly what were they thinking? Article inaccuracies aside, come on people let's be bit more savvy.
Just MHO.
Jeff.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363354/Fiona-mongrel-spot-bother-Crufts-Impure-dalmatian-angers-traditionalists-elite-pedigree-dog-show.html#ixzz1FlsQ7X2M

That's rubbish and the people being quoted are idiots.  Bruce Cattanagh's Boxers were accepted fro registration within four generations, these pointer input dallies are a lot further on than that.

The Kennel club has always had a facility for accepting onto the breed register dogs of unknown breeding that to a panel of experts were found to be purebred.

This I know to be so as my first pedigree dog a Belgian Shepherd Groenendael went back to a  dog of unknown breeding registered as 'Out of Africa'.

The press are always looking for stories to make us look silly and the people giving such quotes are playing into their hands and are showing their ignorance.  In dogs we have the full cross section of intelligence including lack of. ;(

and of course JH always manages to have a quote in these 'stories' as well.....urgh!

WE all know it's rubbish but the GP does not. I am the last person to advise spin but I think the KC need to spend some real money and outflank/pre-empt these problems. I wonder how much Max Clifford costs? :-)

Jeff.

I've seen Fiona at a few shows now and she looks like a standard Liver Dalmatian, moves well and seems to have a nice temprement. If the KC have agreed that she meets all the requirements for being a Dalmatian then that should be the end of the discussion. Some people don't like change and they never will regardless of the health benefits, (some still don't think livers are true Dalmatians) As for winning BOB at Crufts IMO she has as good a chance as I do with my Dalmatians.
Paula xx

Well said and good luck!

Yeah in my breed there's one that was accepted after myself and other people in the breed said she was of breed type. 

how long has there been liver spotted dalmatians their hardley something new iv seen them in the show ring since i started shownig well over 10 years ago

> This I know to be so as my first pedigree dog a Belgian Shepherd Groenendael went back to a  dog of unknown breeding registered as 'Out of Africa'.

I think there's been another one since which was an ex-stray, 'Out of the Gloom' springs to mind. I may be going down the same route with my new rescue although she's spayed and too old to show!

> I am the last person to advise spin but I think the KC need to spend some real money and outflank/pre-empt these problems. I wonder how much Max Clifford costs?

Hear, hear! But what would the KC want with him - after all, they've got Caroline Kisco LOL

>how long has there been liver spotted dalmatians their hardley something new

There have always been liver-spotted dalmatians (and lemon, and orange, just as with pointers) but I've never heard people in the breed saying they're not purebred dalmatians; I've often heard it from members of the public though. Historically they've never been as popular as the blacks, and many people, even judges, still think of them as second class citizens. Liver was an accepted colour in the very first breed standard.

I'm all for outcrosses when needed (coming from a cat background am well used to it being allowed! Just takes you so and so many generations until you are allowed to show them again) -and certainly most of my Malinois go back to Tervueren and it is now possible again to mate certain of the BSD varieties together if you apply for permission first.

What breed can say they were NOT made up of several different breeds originally anyway? Not more than a handful. The aim with outcrossing, as with the Dalmatian, is not to create a new breed but to get some much needed new blood -for whatever reason -and then get the looks BACK to what they should be.

>certainly most of my Malinois go back to Tervueren

It was only quite recently that the four varieties were split and interbreeding not allowed, so rather different from introducing a new breed.

It was only quite recently that the four varieties were split and interbreeding not allowed, so rather different from introducing a new breed.

Well no. It was just for a few years that it WAS allowed. The varieties were suddenly considered just one breed in 1994 and this ended January 2000 so not many years when the varieties COULD be mated together. And don't forget that was just here in the UK -the varieties were separate right from the start in their country of origin. The years when they were all seen as one breed meant a sharp decline in Malinois & Laekenois (L almost died out) with only 3 Malinois breeders left at the end of it, so not all that many outcrossings were done. So not at all that different from using entirely different breeds.

I think that the article isn't disputing the Liver being a "real" dal but the reaction to some people who believe that this bitch is not a pedigree Dalmatian as she is the result of a fairly recent cross breeding program with a pointer. I think it is only coincidence that she is liver??
Paula xx

> 'Out of the Gloom' springs to mind.

No Out of the gloom was the result of a pet breeding between two well bred dogs, and so his registration was possible by sorting out the paperwork (transferring his parents into the right ownership and then registering him.

I remember him at his first championship show and for a while he held the Groenendael CC record.

You are right that he was found straying in Bristol, his owners were located, but they were happy to give him up.

Oh for heavens sake. She's not a mongrel, she has one pointer ancester about 12 generations back. She looks pretty Dally-ish to me!! I hope she wins BOB!

Why do you hope she wins BOB? just because it would be somewhat controversial? I hope I win BOB :-) mine deserve it just as much but there wouldn't be a story in it!
Paula xxx

Sorry but it is the Daily Mail who started off Beverley Cuddy's career... and was we all know they are still fighting WWII so are hardly likely to be looking for anything intelligent to confuse their readers with! Oh Beverley now employs Jemima... 'nough said!

i thought as much so pretty much the same as white boxers and any other breed that have different colours turning up unlike the white dobermann

>i thought as much so pretty much the same as white boxers and any other breed that have different colours turning up

What, like yellow or chocolate labradors rather than black ones?

yes sorry i ment the liver dalmatian is just a normal colour variety the same as other breeds have and i think their lovley

> Why do you hope she wins BOB?

> I hope I win BOB

I hope you do too Paula!  :-)  :-)

The 'spit and derision' that accompanies Daily Mail stories always distracts from the facts and is just one of the things (a long list!) I dislike about this spiteful paper.

I wonder how these people were approached for a quote and if they knew exactly what it was going to be used for...

probably if you went back far enough they all came from similar types anyway as both dalmatians and pointers are the same colour black and liver mixed with white just in different coat patterns one mostly white with black/liver spots and the other mostly black/liver with white spots

:-) Thanks JeanSW
If the Crufts Dalmatian Judge is going to give BOB to a dog that "looks pretty Dally-ish" then god help us all.
Hope he is looking for more than that :-)
Paula xx

Paula I am not a Dalmatian expert and I too hope the judge will know what he is looking for, and if he gives BOB to Fiona it will help prove that this dog is an outstanding example of her breed. It would be nice if all our CD members got BOB though! :-D

>if he gives BOB to Fiona it will help prove that this dog is an outstanding example of her breed.

And that's the important point. If she isn't 'outstanding' then she shouldn't be awarded BoB, and certainly not just because she has a different gene.

I would like to see all the BOBs be given to the best examples of each respective breed on the day NOT to try to prove any point at all other than they are not an 'ish' of any breed! :(

If she isn't 'outstanding' then she shouldn't be awarded BoB, and certainly not just because she has a different gene.

I don't think Lucy meant anything but this. It WOULD be nice if the dog was good enough to do really well and prove to those being negative about its background that it is that good AS ITS BREED. Surely we all want to see health improved in all breeds with the breed characteristics such as looks and temperament kept as they should be?

I wonder how these people were approached for a quote and if they knew exactly what it was going to be used for...

Newspapers are great at twisting your words, that's for sure. I think it was before last year's Crufts, or possibly 2009, that I said to a newspaper that my breed was a guarding breed. Suddenly I was in the paper described as a breeder of guard dogs!

Like I have said before, I have seen this bitch in the ring and she is a nice bitch IMO and I hope she brings to dalmatians everything that her coming about intended health wise, However,  She has only ever been placed as high as 2nd at Champ show level (HC, 2nd, VHC and 3rd are her champ show results so far) and I certainly wouldn't want her to win "just because it would be nice to prove she is good enough"
I have heard rummer that our current Breed Record holder who IMO is an "outstanding" example of a Dalmatian will be showing at Crufts this year and I would rather she be BOB. If not me or my friends LOL
Paula xxx

However,  She has only ever been placed as high as 2nd at Champ show level (HC, 2nd, VHC and 3rd are her champ show results so far) and I certainly wouldn't want her to win "just because it would be nice to prove she is good enough"

To be honest to me that means nothing -lots of dogs start off with less good results, doesn't mean anything -could even mean it's the handling that's lacking, doesn't have to be the dog. Not to mention that dogs change as they mature. Sounds to me more like you don't WANT this one to be any good?

>Sounds to me more like you don't WANT this one to be any good?

On the contrary - it sounds like this one is 'good enough' but isn't outstanding or one to set the world on fire for any reason other than her gene. And is that a good enough reason?

Thats not true, she is good, I believe she could do well and will, but I don't believe she should be BOB just because she carries this gene.
Her handler is an experienced handler, and she is currently in Limit and fully developed. I only mentioned her record so far in the UK for those who would read the article and think that it might be sour grapes by the people she has and might beat. (and for those who have only seen Fiona in the article photo)
At the beginning of this thread I said I thought she was a nice example of a liver dal. I stand by that, and I also agree that she has every right to be at Crufts as it is the KC rules we all have to abide by and they have agreed that she is a Dalmatian, but I could also name at least 10 liver bitches who IMO are as nice if not nicer and will also be at Crufts. (I only have black girls)
I wish she didn't come with all this publicity and that she was only judged on her own merits and then if she did well, good for her.
Just to prove I am not hoping she doesn't do well, I can also say that the publicity may also have had a negative affect and some judges will see her Handler/owner, know who she is and be totally against the idea so place her lower if at all, which I think is just as bad. It will be her Progeny that I will be looking out for and I hope that I see a beautiful pup in the ring and flick through my catalogue and then find she is the Dam.
Paula xx

On the contrary - it sounds like this one is 'good enough' but isn't outstanding or one to set the world on fire for any reason other than her gene. And is that a good enough reason?

My point was I've heard nothing yet that suggests it ISN'T just good enough. Something just good enough WON'T win BOB at Crufts, simple as that -doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. :)

but I don't believe she should be BOB just because she carries this gene.

Nobody has said so either -we've said it would be nice IF she was that good and did it, as that way the breeders against this dog's ancestry would see they have nothing to worry about.

Thanks Marianne, yes that's exactly what I said and meant. Some of the people on here should be working for newspapers they are so good at twisting words!!!

>I don't think Lucy meant anything but this. It WOULD be nice if the dog was good enough to do really well and prove to those being negative about its background that it is that good AS ITS BREED. Surely we all want to see health improved in all breeds with the breed characteristics such as looks and temperament kept as they should be?

>My point was I've heard nothing yet that suggests it ISN'T just good enough.

Her show record here would indicate that she's not outstanding ...

LucyDogs I hope you don't think I have been twisting your words? as that was not my intention. However my intention was to ask you why you said you hope she gets BOB at Crufts as you have never seen her? Was it purely because she has the LUA gene?
Paula xx

No, as I said it was because if she got BOB or even a high placing it would help prove that she is a good example of the Dalmatian breed in spite of having a pointer ancestor some way back, which is exactly what I said in my earlier post. Marianne understands what I am saying, so I will bow out of this now.

Her show record here would indicate that she's not outstanding ...

Well I can mention one Crufts BOB and Champion who had very similar placings earlier on in life -including not being placed at all in the first couple of shows....... in fact if I sat down and checked I could probably find a lot of similar stories. Like our breed record holder who only managed a 3rd out of 4 at Crufts several years ago. Or another top winning bitch in the breed (Champion) who later took overall BIS at breed champ shows who two years in a row was last in her class at Crufts. And that's just checking Crufts. :) Like I said, could be poor handling, could be a dog that needs to mature, could be judges who prefer another type. Or could be the dog isn't good enough -of course. But just a few lower placings does not necessarily tell the full story.

Oh and as far as judges and preferences go -one BOB winner from Crufts last year got 4th out of 4 at an open show the month before Crufts.

I wonder if there is a Dalmation owner writing some of the pre Crufts stories...

I'm sure there is always one story featuring this breed, and wasn't it a Dalmation that was part of a big betting story/gossip a few years ago :)

I don't often read the paper so most of this passes me by, unless it gets a mention on here, but I have noticed a sudden rash of dog related adverts on TV!

I think I'd like to see her placed, if she's good enough, but if she did win BOB then the tongues would start wagging again. I will MUCH more interested to see how her offspring who have inherited the gene, do in the future though.

The judge is in a cleft stick with this one; whatever he does with her he's going to be accused of bias, either for her or against her.

Jemima Harrison, producer of the programme, said last night: 'It is astonishing but true that the majority of breeders would rather have sick dogs than allow a single drop of foreign blood to taint their breeds.'

Jeff, made prematurely grey by having to repeat FACTS to people said last night: It is astonishing but true that people would rather continue to make such sweeping accusations!

Looking up this bitch's show results, I think they have been under exaggerated -if there is such a word. VHC out of 13, 2nd of 11, 5th of 17, plus not to mention a group WIN at an open show -that's not something rubbish. She's clearly beating plenty of other dogs.
http://www.zyworld.com/tyrodal/UKC_Ch_Fiacres_First_and_Foremost.htm

It does seem like the article has been put out just before Crufts, to stoke up a bit of controversy and then the results on forums like this can be quoted as evidence of the infighting that is going on amongst breeders.

It is clear to me, as a complete ignoramus about dallies, that whatever anyone here thinks about the chances of that bitch getting BOB, everyone here agrees that the Pointer cross way back in her pedigree is not in itself an issue and would not preclude her as a candidate for honours in the ring at some point.

>VHC out of 13, 2nd of 11, 5th of 17, plus not to mention a group WIN at an open show -that's not something rubbish.

I don't think anyone's said she's rubbish - that would clearly be wrong! But it's also nothing particularly outstanding; my own dogs have had results like that and even my biased eye could tell that they weren't superstars - indeed I didn't consider some good enough to breed from, despite show results like that. However if I'd gone to all the trouble and expense of importing one would I feel obliged to breed from it nevertheless? I don't know. She's clearly better than average though, so it'll make interesting watching. I bet the crowd round the ringside will be 20 deep!

:-) Thats me in the background with the spotty wellies on in the first picture on her page LOL
So like I said I have seen her at a few shows and she is a nice liver dalmatian, KC have ruled that she is eligible to show, she has earned her place at Crufts and she has just as much chance as the other 188 Dalmatians that are entered.
Paula xx